Jorginho

[Superblue 6,372]

23 minutes ago, Jas said:

You made as if he's been great for us...

I do think his value is seriously understated at times. He's one of those players that can have 10 great games but all it takes is one bad game and the 'must be sold' comments start rolling out at will.

Obviously under Lampard, he doesn't look the same player because the athletic weaknesses that he does have are magnified in a far less structured system. 

Under Tuchel his weaknesses are less apparent due to the structure around him, and his strengths are in far greater focus.

7 minutes ago, Jas said:

Don't think Jorginho will win it even if he wins the Euros with Italy. His impact hasn't been like super WOW on the Italy squad or he hasn't necessarily had a profound impact on both club and country like Modric did when he controversially(?) won it. 

I personally don't think he'll win the balon d'or but I think your wide of the mark if you don't think he has a profound impact on this Italy squad. The squad and manager himself all recognise him as the main player.

[Pizy 18,515]

Don’t think he was nearly as good today as he has been for the rest of the tournament.

There were quite a few times today where his precise weakness (athletic runners on the quick turnover) was exploited. He still has absolutely zero recovery ability.

Long as Chelsea and Italy have legs around him he’s great to have. Kante, Kova, Veratti, and Barella is some talent he gets to play with.

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I do think his value is seriously understated at times. He's one of those players that can have 10 great games but all it takes is one bad game and the 'must be sold' comments start rolling out at will.

10 great games might be overselling it.

1 minute ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Obviously under Lampard, he doesn't look the same player because the athletic weaknesses that he does have are magnified in a far less structured system. 

TBF, even in a rigid system like Sarri's and one that was supposed to let him shine, his lack of athleticism was (is) also a problem.

3 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I think your wide of the mark if you don't think he has a profound impact on this Italy squad. The squad and manager himself all recognise him as the main player.

I said for "club AND country". 

For argument's sake, even if he has a profound impact for club and country, I don't think he's popular or revered enough globally to win the Ballon d'Or, compared to Modric who of course won it some years ago.

[Jase 43,479]

@NikkiCFC If England win the Euros, are you gonna champion for Mount to win the Ballon d'Or, like you do with Jorginho? 😆

[Superblue 6,372]

3 minutes ago, Jas said:

10 great games might be overselling it.

TBF, even in a rigid system like Sarri's and one that was supposed to let him shine, his lack of athleticism was (is) also a problem.

I said for "club AND country". 

For argument's sake, even if he has a profound impact for club and country, I don't think he's popular or revered enough globally to win the Ballon d'Or, compared to Modric who of course won it some years ago.

I'd say the Arsenal and West Brom games that he was particularly poor in are highlighted more than the games that he has played well. Maybe it's because in those games he made individual errors and in games he plays well in he doesn't necessarily do anything that individually stands out. For example, Kante received all of the plaudits (and completely deserved) during the latter stages of the Champions League but I thought Jorginho was excellent along side him, particularly in the second leg against Madrid and the final.

I completely agree with the comment regarding Modric though. I think his win wasn't just for the season he had but there were elements to it of celebrating a player that had been consistently excellent for a number of years and the win almost felt a culmination of that appreciation.

[Jase 43,479]

3 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I'd say the Arsenal and West Brom games that he was particularly poor in are highlighted more than the games that he has played well. Maybe it's because in those games he made individual errors and in games he plays well in he doesn't necessarily do anything that individually stands out. For example, Kante received all of the plaudits (and completely deserved) during the latter stages of the Champions League but I thought Jorginho was excellent along side him, particularly in the second leg against Madrid and the final.

His lack of athleticism aside, think people's main frustration with him is that he doesn't do enough with the ball. He often just passes sideways or backwards (it's fine if we are just trying to kill a game but not when we are trying to break down the opposition) even when there is an opportunity to pass forward and we have seen him play those forward, decisive passes into the final third but he doesn't do it enough. It's a reason why Fabregas, despite having the same weaknesses as Jorginho, was (is) revered much more because of what he does with the ball. 

[Magic Lamps 11,677]

As good as he is for italy ( he was average today but sublime in almost all other games), he can never replicate this form fully. For italy he has 2 somewhat creative-ish players around him who also run a lot in Barella and verrati/locatelli. For us he only has kante whose attacking output is erratic but who runs for 3. so defensively we usually look good if he does not make his 1 every 7 games stupid mistake. But offensively we will never be threatening from midfield with him and Kante there. We could work around that if we had real goalscorer up front but currently we don't so he gets a lot of slack. But given their age, Kante Jorginho is not a long term solution and I sure as hell would like to have a more offensive and athletic midfield for our next great team. Jorginho has his perks and i had to watch a lot of italy games to fully appreciate them but for us I just don't see him giving enough both in terms of athleticism and creativity/attacking output to make us serial title winners again.

[NikkiCFC 8,068]

1 hour ago, Jas said:

@NikkiCFC If England win the Euros, are you gonna champion for Mount to win the Ballon d'Or, like you do with Jorginho? 😆

We were joking about Chris, Emerson, Mount winning it if their NT win EURO so that is in that category.

With Jorginho is serious. And there are many who think the same... Definitely in top10. Today Barella and Verratti both got replaced and 3 attackers but not only Jorginho.

 

[NikkiCFC 8,068]

 

[Jase 43,479]

6 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

We were joking about Chris, Emerson, Mount winning it if their NT win EURO so that is in that category.

Am asking a hypothetical question. What if England win the Euros and suddenly there's calls for Mount to win it? Are you gonna support it like you do with Jorginho? 

6 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

With Jorginho is serious. And there are many who think the same... Definitely in top10. Today Barella and Verratti both got replaced and 3 attackers but not only Jorginho.

I have only seen the calls for Jorginho to win it coming from the Italy camp (what a surprise!) and his "father". Otherwise, I've not seen this being a universal call.

[OneMoSalah 8,810]

Struggled to influence the game as much as he would usually want to but he was up against Busquets, who again, is still one of the very best in that position and was excellent throughout. As posted above though, still made a lot of interceptions v Spain, which tbf the defensive side of his game has been excellent all tournament and its always one he’s criticised for. 

I mean if Italy go all the way and win the Euros and he plays excellently in another match, there will still be people saying we should get rid of him despite him showing he is clearly Italy’s most important midfielder in that group and showing exactly how good he is in most of the games.

I can’t wait to see whoever they play in the final, which it’ll probably be England, so we can see how much of a superior player he is to Declan Rice and Kalvin Phillips tbf. 

The Ballon d’Or thing is gaining traction will be interesting to see where he ranks 😂 I just hope he continues his form here when he comes back as he’s playing at such a high level because he will be the first name on the team sheet if so if he maintains that level of performance, really can’t think of many MFers who have played as well as he has at the Euros. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by OneMoSalah

[Tomo 21,736]

4 hours ago, Jas said:

Am asking a hypothetical question. What if England win the Euros and suddenly there's calls for Mount to win it? Are you gonna support it like you do with Jorginho? 

I have only seen the calls for Jorginho to win it coming from the Italy camp (what a surprise!) and his "father". Otherwise, I've not seen this being a universal call.

It would be absolutely hilarious if Jorgi or Mount won it.

So many bitter rants will be unleashed.

[Clockwork 1,794]

5 hours ago, Jas said:

Am asking a hypothetical question. What if England win the Euros and suddenly there's calls for Mount to win it? Are you gonna support it like you do with Jorginho? 

I have only seen the calls for Jorginho to win it coming from the Italy camp (what a surprise!) and his "father". Otherwise, I've not seen this being a universal call.

Mount has not been arguably the best player in the tournament, Jorginho has.

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, Clockwork said:

Mount has not been arguably the best player in the tournament, Jorginho has.

As I mentioned, "club and country". Jorginho may have been the player of the tournament so far but he certainly wasn't the best player of the season for us last season. 

And doesn't the Ballon d'Or award take place later in the year or early next year? Still plenty of time for perceptions to be changed.

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, Tomo said:

It would be absolutely hilarious if Jorgi or Mount won it.

So many bitter rants will be unleashed.

For entertainment purposes, Mount winning would be more hilarious.

And IF either one wins, it would be something considering we had thought Hazard would win it in the past with us. 

[Tomo 21,736]

16 minutes ago, Jas said:

For entertainment purposes, Mount winning would be more hilarious.

And IF either one wins, it would be something considering we had thought Hazard would win it in the past with us. 

On here would be the Mount rants, The Shed will have the Jorginho one's. 

[NikkiCFC 8,068]

Incomparable. Mount is favourite player for 90% of Chelsea fans. Only 10% are bushing him. With Jorginho is opposite. 90% of Chelsea fans think he is semi pro player and should be sold. This is my impression. 

[Tomo 21,736]

10 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

Incomparable. Mount is favourite player for 90% of Chelsea fans. Only 10% are bushing him. With Jorginho is opposite. 90% of Chelsea fans think he is semi pro player and should be sold. This is my impression. 

Largely because Tuchel coming in and picking him (aswell as Mourinho and Sarri both saying/strongly implying they would pick him if he was their player) has destroyed the narrative he was only playing because he was a pet of Lampard and Southgate. 

Jorginho is a vocal minority that genuinely think he's rubbish, a few more jumped on the bandwagon because they needed someone to take their frustrations on Lampard's sacking out on.