Jorginho

[Vesper 29,087]

Fucking Juve choked 🤬

[Blue Armour 4,323]

On 09/02/2021 at 14:56, Jason said:

There's nothing stopping Jorginho from doing even half of what Fabregas did for us, especially when Jorginho himself has played those killer passes, albeit very rarely. 

Exactly my point. Even if there is an opening to play in someone like Werner in the final third, Jorginho 7/10 times opts not to do it and passes sideways.

He has made improvements under Tuchel no doubt, especially with the way he dealt with the Sheffield United press in the last league game, but his passing game leaves a lot to be desired.

[Jase 43,479]

41 minutes ago, Blue Armour said:

Exactly my point. Even if there is an opening to play in someone like Werner in the final third, Jorginho 7/10 times opts not to do it and passes sideways.

He has made improvements under Tuchel no doubt, especially with the way he dealt with the Sheffield United press in the last league game, but his passing game leaves a lot to be desired.

Precisely. He has shown that he can play those defence splitting passes, accurate over the top passes etc but chooses not to most of the time. Decides to pass it sideways/backwards, giving opponents chance to get back into their shape and making it harder to break through them. Moreover, if Jorginho really is good at controlling the tempo, we wouldn't be having so many basketball-esque games. Couple that frustrating aspect of his game with his defensive side of the game, it's so painful to watch. For example in the game against Sheffield United, there were a number of times he was robbed off the ball so easily and then didn't have the pace or physicality to win it back. IIRC, Mikel used to get the same criticism with his passing but at the very least, he had a defensive presence about him, even if he might be a different player. Jorginho's passing is mostly unambitious and doesn't have any defensive presence about him. 

[Tomo 21,733]

On 09/02/2021 at 19:48, Jason said:

Can't compare? You have people talking about Jorginho's passing like it's so WOW when it's nowhere near that. Imagine thinking his passing and the passing range is good after seeing what Fabregas did for us. 

On that basis we can never truly enjoy a LB again as they (likely) won't be as good as prime Cole.

[Tomo 21,733]

On 10/02/2021 at 14:28, MoroccanBlue said:

I think the most shocking thing about Cesc was that his legs completely blew out in a matter of months. After the 2015 title win, he was genuinely a turtle. 

It happened well before that especially from a defensive point of view, we were just on form as an overall team so it didn't matter much at that point.

[Jase 43,479]

21 minutes ago, Tomo said:

On that basis we can never truly enjoy a LB again as they (likely) won't be as good as prime Cole.

Don't be daft, Tomo...

[MoroccanBlue 5,320]

23 minutes ago, Tomo said:

It happened well before that especially from a defensive point of view, we were just on form as an overall team so it didn't matter much at that point.

When exactly? I remember the home game against Arsenal in 2015, and he was sprinting and tackling Sanchez. That genuinely seems like the last time I remember Cesc being able to run. 

Was there an injury we didn't know about involving Cesc's hamstring later that season or in 2016?

[Tomo 21,733]

19 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

When exactly? I remember the home game against Arsenal in 2015, and he was sprinting and tackling Sanchez. That genuinely seems like the last time I remember Cesc being able to run. 

Was there an injury we didn't know about involving Cesc's hamstring later that season or in 2016?

Pretty much from the off he was regularly bypassed in midfield off the ball, Swansea at home (Costa hattrick game) he specifically had a shocker defensively IIRC. 

Against any opposition of real note (especially away) Mou drafted Rami in and made it 433.

[Jase 43,479]

24 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Against any opposition of real note (especially away) Mou drafted Rami in and made it 433.

Or move him to the #10 role, with 2 defensive midfielders behind me.

[Blue Armour 4,323]

3 hours ago, Jason said:

Precisely. He has shown that he can play those defence splitting passes, accurate over the top passes etc but chooses not to most of the time. Decides to pass it sideways/backwards, giving opponents chance to get back into their shape and making it harder to break through them. Moreover, if Jorginho really is good at controlling the tempo, we wouldn't be having so many basketball-esque games. Couple that frustrating aspect of his game with his defensive side of the game, it's so painful to watch. For example in the game against Sheffield United, there were a number of times he was robbed off the ball so easily and then didn't have the pace or physicality to win it back. IIRC, Mikel used to get the same criticism with his passing but at the very least, he had a defensive presence about him, even if he might be a different player. Jorginho's passing is mostly unambitious and doesn't have any defensive presence about him. 

Yep, we expected him to be like Mikel but with better, quicker passing. Now we have someone with Mikel like passing, but with none of the defensive nous.

[Clockwork 1,794]

Chelsea are unbeaten in the last 18 games when Jorginho has started. 
 

Honestly it is incredible how Chelsea fans constantly moan and bitch about him when he hardly even featured during a terrible stretch that ultimately got Lampard fired.

[Jase 43,479]

4 hours ago, Clockwork said:

Chelsea are unbeaten in the last 18 games when Jorginho has started. 

People are really clutching at straws when this specific stat is used to defend a player.

4 hours ago, Clockwork said:

Honestly it is incredible how Chelsea fans constantly moan and bitch about him when he hardly even featured during a terrible stretch that ultimately got Lampard fired.

So, you're saying that Jorginho could have been THE player to save Lampard's job? 🤨 He's been at the club for 2 1/2 years and the fact that we're still having arguments over his use says a lot. 

[manpe 10,861]

40 minutes ago, Jason said:

People are really clutching at straws when this specific stat is used to defend a player.

Why? I think it was the Liverpool game back in September that we last lost with him starting? If so, that's impressive. If he was as bad as he's made out to be, then surely he would have cost us at least on game in 18?

[Jase 43,479]

1 minute ago, manpe said:

Why? I think it was the Liverpool game back in September that we last lost with him starting? If so, that's impressive. If he was as bad as he's made out to be, then surely he would have cost us at least on game in 18?

Because it's selective? Because it doesn't tell the whole story? This is like when people were using the 18-game unbeaten run earlier run this season to defend Lampard and as a reason to not sack him.

Plus, it's not as if Jorginho just joined us last summer and has been our lucky charm. He's been here for 2.5 years and we have lost games with him starting. Would we have not lost had he started against say Man City or Leicester? He might not be directly responsible for the goals conceded etc had he started but he would still be part of a team that lost. What happens when we eventually lose games with him starting under Tuchel? Then what? What stat are people gonna use then?

If people want to defend Jorginho, by all means, go ahead but using the stat of us being unbeaten in his last 18 starts isn't convincing at all. 

[manpe 10,861]

8 minutes ago, Jason said:

Because it's selective? Because it doesn't tell the whole story? This is like when people were using the 18-game unbeaten run earlier run this season to defend Lampard and as a reason to not sack him.

Plus, it's not as if Jorginho just joined us last summer and has been our lucky charm. He's been here for 2.5 years and we have lost games with him starting. Would we have not lost had he started against say Man City or Leicester? He might not be directly responsible for the goals conceded etc had he started but he would still be part of a team that lost. What happens when we eventually lose games with him starting under Tuchel? Then what? What stat are people gonna use then?

If people want to defend Jorginho, by all means, go ahead but using the stat of us being unbeaten in his last 18 starts isn't convincing at all. 

Of course it doesn't tell the whole story, I generally don't care about stats much except ones that matter. I'm not a fan of his, would rather have someone more mobile and more adventurous in forward passing. But it does tell that he's not as bad as he's portrayed by many fans, you would think he's Bakayoko level hopeless reading some of the stuff on the internet... well if he was, we would have lost much more.

Edited February 19, 2021 by manpe

[Jase 43,479]

3 minutes ago, manpe said:

Of course it doesn't tell the whole story, I generally don't care about stats much except ones that matter. I'm not a fan of his, would rather have someone more mobile and more adventurous in forward passing. But it does tell that he's not as bad as he's portrayed by many fans, you would think he's Bakayoko level hopeless reading some of the stuff on the internet... well if he was, we would have lost much more.

Well sure. If you look at just this season, then stats do look great but less so if you look at the overall stats since he's been here. I don't see what Jorginho has done this season, whenever he's played, that is different from past seasons. 

[Jase 43,479]

Our top scorers in the league this season:

Abraham - 6 goals (all non-penalties)

Jorginho - 6 goals (all penalties!)

[NikkiCFC 8,063]

19 minutes ago, Jason said:

Our top scorers in the league this season:

Abraham - 6 goals (all non-penalties)

Jorginho - 6 goals (all penalties!)

After 28 games! Crazy stat. 

I think Willian last season did better than all our attacking players this season.