🇮🇹 Jorginho

[Henrique 9,133]

I'm still think right now he creates more problems than anything. When Arsenal was creating chances for fun in the end of 1st half, Jorginho was completely lost, marking no one, he can't win any 1vs1 battle, he can't harass the opponents. In the second half he have an assist to Abumayang, and he was lucky that was a soft off-side. I'm not really concerned about the number of touches, to be honest.

[Miguelito 459]

Just now, Henrique said:

I'm still think right now he creates more problems than anything. When Arsenal was creating chances for fun in the end of 1st half, Jorginho was completely lost, marking no one, he can't win any 1vs1 battle, he can't harass the opponents. In the second half he have an assist to Abumayang, and he was lucky that was a soft off-side. I'm not really concerned about the number of touches, to be honest.

Come on, there is no such thing as "soft offside".  It is either off side or it isn't.

I agree that he is really poor defensively.  He seems to scramble out of position often and nobody presses with him.  I wonder if this has something to do with the team getting used to a new pressing system.  He also does not track back well. He is honestly just a bit slow and it leaves lots of space at the top of the box.

That said, The number of touches matters a lot.  He controlled this game at times and was brilliant when he did. He also is constantly helping out teammates with instructions of where to move and pass. He does need to adjust defensively, but he is top class.

[Superblue 6,372]

4 hours ago, Henrique said:

I'm still think right now he creates more problems than anything. When Arsenal was creating chances for fun in the end of 1st half, Jorginho was completely lost, marking no one, he can't win any 1vs1 battle, he can't harass the opponents. In the second half he have an assist to Abumayang, and he was lucky that was a soft off-side. I'm not really concerned about the number of touches, to be honest.

Whilst it is clear that Sarri has some work to drill into the team regarding defensive shape, etc having a midfielder so comfortable in possession and to dictate and control the game does still help defensively. In the second half we played a far more patient game and controlled it, in doing so restricting arsenal to very little in the second half. Without someone like Jorginho and later kovacic alongside him this wouldn't be possible.

[kiwi1691 255]

13 hours ago, MrExcalibur100 said:

Apparently had 100+ touches today. When was the last time a non-defender, hell ANY Chelsea player had 100+ touches in a game vs the big 6? Certainly not under the previous regimes. Normally it was Courtois with the most touches  

Marcos Alonso also had over 100

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1284754/Live/England-Premier-League-2018-2019-Chelsea-Arsenal

 

[AndersonBLUE 819]

Hmm can we swap him and Kante around? Have Kante screen the back four and have Jorge further up the field 

[NiclasCFC 2,582]

32 minutes ago, AndersonBLUE said:

Hmm can we swap him and Kante around? Have Kante screen the back four and have Jorge further up the field 

Have you even seen a minute of Chelsea since Sarri took over? Swaping them would kill our style of play.

[AndersonBLUE 819]

20 minutes ago, NiclasCFC said:

Have you even seen a minute of Chelsea since Sarri took over? Swaping them would kill our style of play.

Yes and did you not see yesterday’s game at all? Where we were cut open time and time again and conceding 2 goals which should have been more because of no midfield presence in defence? Sarris system shouldn’t just be copy paste

[blues.bridge 343]

41 minutes ago, AndersonBLUE said:

Hmm can we swap him and Kante around? Have Kante screen the back four and have Jorge further up the field 

yes, kante is a best DMF in the world but if you know how played Sarri's Napoli you know that jorginho have to play there!
Kante also on the left is yet the best recover balls! The problem is that the team don't know pressing all together well!
last year we played low and kante best position was front of the defence, but with now style we of coure have to improve but kante on the left is not a mistake (he will do what Allan did to napoli) with high pressing kante can recovery balls near  3/4 opponents! Probably we used only 90% of his potential defence attitude but sometimes needs done some choice and it's better loss a minumun part of kante defence (but already him will be more better on attack) but all team will play thousen times better!

[Starman60 1,343]

Guys on here wondering about Jorginho and Kante switching positions to improve us defensively. after watching yesterday, and seeing Kovacic coming on and playing superbly, I think until we get our defence sorted our best plan for defending is to attack and keep the ball. I know its not always possible, but we looked superb going forward but terrible at times defending. Jorginho is still getting used to the Premiership and his new team mates, once the "Sarri Ball" system is totally implemented I think he will do the Kante role but in a much more attacking way. With Kante and Kovacic assisting we will have one of the best midfields in the league. I also thought Kovacic and Hazard have already forged a good understanding of each others movement which augers well for us.

[manpe 10,861]

6 hours ago, AndersonBLUE said:

Hmm can we swap him and Kante around? Have Kante screen the back four and have Jorge further up the field 

Don't think that would work well for Jorginho. Often times he'd have to go right-midfield or make runs behind the defence, run up and down and get himself into crowded areas with his back to the goal, while Kante would be the one needing to pick out the passes from the back. It just wouldn't work. In a 4-2-3-1 yes if we have them both sit deep, but we are now an attack first side, don't think we'll see too much of that.

5 hours ago, AndersonBLUE said:

Yes and did you not see yesterday’s game at all? Where we were cut open time and time again and conceding 2 goals which should have been more because of no midfield presence in defence? Sarris system shouldn’t just be copy paste

It will get better, all part of the learning curve. We still won our first two games, held 60%+ possession and scored 3 in each, kept one clean sheet. Last Conte year or in Mourinho's last year, when we were a strict defence first side we still made such schoolboy errors and conceded many soft goals. Difference now is that we can attack to compensate that and we still have loads of room to improve.

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

8 hours ago, AndersonBLUE said:

Hmm can we swap him and Kante around? Have Kante screen the back four and have Jorge further up the field 

I think Jorginho still has to adapt to the pace in defensive situations, for the deepest MF player to not have been closer to the penalty spot for the second goal is criminal. He should be protecting that area. CBs didn't help either true enough but still that zone should have been his responsibility. I dont think playing Kante there and moving Jorginho higher up would be beneficial though. Jorginho is crucial to playing out and you can see that he is the go to guy when the CBs have the ball, much like Busquets at Barcelona, Fernandinho at City etc. In terms of those chances maybe they wouldn't have been goals but again I don't think it would of made a difference, everyone was flat footed in that situation, somebody unmarked running onto the ball is always going to have the advantage of somebody standing still. 

[Clockwork 1,794]

7 hours ago, NiclasCFC said:

Have you even seen a minute of Chelsea since Sarri took over? Swaping them would kill our style of play.

 

1 hour ago, manpe said:

Don't think that would work well for Jorginho. Often times he'd have to go right-midfield or make runs behind the defence, run up and down and get himself into crowded areas with his back to the goal, while Kante would be the one needing to pick out the passes from the back. It just wouldn't work. In a 4-2-3-1 yes if we have them both sit deep, but we are now an attack first side, don't think we'll see too much of that.

I don't think any one realistically is saying they should switch role, obviously Kante can not do what Jorginho can do, and attempting to have Jorginho do what Kante does is a complete use of his skill set. An argument for an adjustment in Sarri system would be justified to get the best out of the players. 

Jorginho can still do everything he does from the buildup standpoint without needing to protect the back four. He would even have more freedom to move further up the pitch, and utilize his final ball. No doubt you would lose the runs from Kante from midfield but i think i would live with that.

 

Kinda similar to Busquets and Xavi years back. Xavi would drop deeper than anyone to build the attack, when transitioning Xavi would move further up the pitch while Busq would play deeper at that point. 

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

59 minutes ago, Clockwork said:

 

I don't think any one realistically is saying they should switch role, obviously Kante can not do what Jorginho can do, and attempting to have Jorginho do what Kante does is a complete use of his skill set. An argument for an adjustment in Sarri system would be justified to get the best out of the players. 

Jorginho can still do everything he does from the buildup standpoint without needing to protect the back four. He would even have more freedom to move further up the pitch, and utilize his final ball. No doubt you would lose the runs from Kante from midfield but i think i would live with that.

 

Kinda similar to Busquets and Xavi years back. Xavi would drop deeper than anyone to build the attack, when transitioning Xavi would move further up the pitch while Busq would play deeper at that point. 

Perhaps but as you've said you would lose the runs and I think in a Sarri team having that is a big big plus because the forwards create spaces for other players and the likes of Kante or Barkley could expose those spaces and profit from them.  

I think Sarri has been working with the defenders and GK alone to try and build that defensive shape and will continue to do so for a bit and also with the midfielders to try get that balance right. Its only 2 games, it was a bit alarming because there was 2 or 3 big chances other than their goals that came from cut backs into that area and I think Jorginho should have been closer to that zone. Sarri said something like "we lost the players distances", not 100% sure but I think hes meaning the gaps between defence and MF without the ball? Still plenty to work on.

I think another thing that would maybe also not work is Kante isn't as excellent a passer (hes improved tenfold since he was at Leicester I feel though) going forward as Jorginho, those 30-40 yard passes where he can just open something up is a big plus too and under enough pressure having that relief is also excellent, I know that we will always have options in possession but having that quick pass into a MF runner, could be very good. Fair enough Luiz can do it too but I think Jorginho should remain as the deeper player, although we've already seen he does venture on a bit more too when he needs to to initiate the pressing and when we are trying to break teams down.

[manpe 10,861]

19 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Sarri said something like "we lost the players distances", not 100% sure but I think hes meaning the gaps between defence and MF without the ball?

That is one thing, but the other thing I think he meant by that was that our players stood off their players too much, so when we wanted to press they were too far and it was no problem for Arsenal to pass themselves out of it. One of the things with pressing imo is that you don't give time to the opposing team to comfortably control the ball and raise their heads to pick a pass, but since we "lost distances" that's exactly what happened. We were chasing shadows in that 15 minute period.

[Jase 43,479]

5 minutes ago, manpe said:

That is one thing, but the other thing I think he meant by that was that our players stood off their players too much, so when we wanted to press they were too far and it was no problem for Arsenal to pass themselves out of it. One of the things with pressing imo is that you don't give time to the opposing team to comfortably control the ball and raise their heads to pick a pass, but since we "lost distances" that's exactly what happened. We were chasing shadows in that 15 minute period.

I watched the game again earlier and noticed that the players were ball watching for all the Arsenal chances and goals. Nobody tracked the runners and everyone just went AWOL and allowed Arsenal players to have a free run inside the box. Instead of marking players, we're marking zonally. The Iwobi goal is a prime example. Also, the space between Luiz and Alonso is a problem. There were couple of instances where Arsenal cut us open by just simply playing balls into the space between them. Doesn't happen a lot, if at all, on the opposite side, which says something. That needs to be addressed ASAP.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

14 minutes ago, Jason said:

I watched the game again earlier and noticed that the players were ball watching for all the Arsenal chances and goals. Nobody tracked the runners and everyone just went AWOL and allowed Arsenal players to have a free run inside the box. Instead of marking players, we're marking zonally. The Iwobi goal is a prime example. Also, the space between Luiz and Alonso is a problem. There were couple of instances where Arsenal cut us open by just simply playing balls into the space between them. Doesn't happen a lot, if at all, on the opposite side, which says something. That needs to be addressed ASAP.

Unfortunately both Alonso and Luiz are terrible defensively, but among our best when we are in possession. Its a dilemma we must face. 

[Jase 43,479]

 

[Sideshow Luiz 2,310]

5 hours ago, Jason said:

The space between Luiz and Alonso is a problem. There were couple of instances where Arsenal cut us open by just simply playing balls into the space between them. Doesn't happen a lot, if at all, on the opposite side, which says something. That needs to be addressed ASAP.

From what I've seen of Sarri's Napoli, the FB will go out to challenge the winger and the other 3 defenders will be in the box almost like a3 CB (because they shift to the ball side so much).

That's not the best video of it, I forget which one I saw that showed it in-game.

I think that gap being exploited more on the left vs the right isn't just down to Luiz and Alonso vs Azpi and Rudiger.  That's also Pedro and Kante vs Barkley and Willian

 

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

4 minutes ago, Sideshow Luiz said:

From what I've seen of Sarri's Napoli, the FB will go out to challenge the winger and the other 3 defenders will be in the box almost like a3 CB (because they shift to the ball side so much).

That's not the best video of it, I forget which one I saw that showed it in-game.

I think that gap being exploited more on the left vs the right isn't just down to Luiz and Alonso vs Azpi and Rudiger.  That's also Pedro and Kante vs Barkley and Willian

 

His Napoli team without the ball, the defence would be narrow and try make the opposition play in the wings to get crosses in because with Kouliably and Albiol and another fullback when the other one goes out to challenge they would always be favourites in the air because the two CBs were extremely dominant in that aspect and they'd have their sitting midfield player tucked in at the penalty spot. Its interesting because in that regard if the ball comes in from Azpi's side, Rudiger, Luiz and Alonso are all very strong in the air for high crosses. Azpi is a bit shorter, although still solid enough in the air but hasnt got the height advantage (I know this sounds a lot like Mourinho wanting 4 6 ft plus defenders haha) but I think low cut backs will be a big issue for us this season if the centre backs and DM aren't in sync and have that awareness of the space where it could be extremely dangerous, particularly if MF runners are going to come if off the back of Jorginho, Kante and whoever plays that 3rd position.

[Sideshow Luiz 2,310]

1 minute ago, OneMoSalah said:

His Napoli team without the ball, the defence would be narrow and try make the opposition play in the wings to get crosses in because with Kouliably and Albiol and another fullback when the other one goes out to challenge they would always be favourites in the air because the two CBs were extremely dominant in that aspect and they'd have their sitting midfield player tucked in at the penalty spot. Its interesting because in that regard if the ball comes in from Azpi's side, Rudiger, Luiz and Alonso are all very strong in the air for high crosses. Azpi is a bit shorter, although still solid enough in the air but hasnt got the height advantage (I know this sounds a lot like Mourinho wanting 4 6 ft plus defenders haha) but I think low cut backs will be a big issue for us this season if the centre backs and DM aren't in sync and have that awareness of the space where it could be extremely dangerous, particularly if MF runners are going to come if off the back of Jorginho, Kante and whoever plays that 3rd position.

That's what I thought.

I think the cutbacks will be sorted out, i'm not worried.  They've had such little time on the training pitch.  The French and Belgian players have only been back for 2-3 weeks.