🇮🇹 Jorginho

[oldportblue 547]

1 minute ago, Jason said:

Imagine going from worshipping Fabregas' passing capability - and not to mention, his creativity - to worshipping Jorginho's. How the standards have fallen...

it's night and day 😩

[Miguelito 459]

21 minutes ago, Jason said:

Imagine going from worshipping Fabregas' passing capability - and not to mention, his creativity - to worshipping Jorginho's. How the standards have fallen...

Why does it have to be one or the other? It's not black and white. They're totally different players.

 

Fab was much more of risk taker, brilliant creativity, long pass specialist. But he didn't control the tempo like jorginho does. He ran the show often but in a much different way. He was a decisive player who biggest impacts were often directly involved with goals.

Jorginho is a person who dictates tempo much more, keeps things flowing, creates a ton of space for teammates, but offers shorter passes. He is a player who's impact is often not directly involved with goals, but overall play.

You can appreciate both. I do. And I say that even though I wish gilmour would play more often over jorgi. No doubt jorgi has been brilliant since TT has taken over.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Miguelito

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

27 minutes ago, oldportblue said:

imo the only negative of tuchel's tenure so far is his love for jorgihno... to me he is a weak and slow player, his long balls are below average, he gets spun in midfield very often when teams attack us and he can't shoot, score or assist. The stat someone posted above that he has been motm 3 times in 4 games is pure fiction, he was dreadful a couple of times and him taking the pens covered up those poor performances in the player ratings...

I can easily see him being exposed by a team with quality going forward that actually wants to attack... that has not been the case for any of the 4 teams we've played under tuchel so far and even the little attacking sheffield did do, they ran around him like he was a cone in midfield... I hope I'm wrong about him in the long term as tuchel seems to love him but I don't love what I've seen from him in the 2+ years he's been at Chelsea so far

He has been one of our best players under Tuchel.... him and Kovacic’s first half v Spurs was as good as I have seen from one of our midfield duos since Kante and Matic v Everton in the 5-0 game at the Bridge under Conte. I know they faded but the whole team did. Theyve kept playing at a decent level and hopefully it continues.

The only negative has probably been the reintroduction of Rudiger who showed how clueless he is v Sheffield with that OG that sums him up. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by OneMoSalah

[Atomiswave 6,117]

26 minutes ago, Jason said:

Imagine going from worshipping Fabregas' passing capability - and not to mention, his creativity - to worshipping Jorginho's. How the standards have fallen...

You cant compare Jason.....besides very few players had the abilities of Fab

2 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

He has been one of our best players under Tuchel.... him and Kovacic’s first half v Spurs was as good as I have seen from one of our midfield duos since Kante and Matic v Everton in the 5-0 game at the Bridge under Conte. I know they faded but the whole team did. Theyve kept playing at a decent level and hopefully it continues.

The only negative has probably been the reintroduction of Rudiger who showed how clueless he is v Sheffield with that OG that sums him up. 

Yeah he fucked up there for sure but I will say he more than redeemed himself after that blunder.

[oldportblue 547]

6 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

He has been one of our best players under Tuchel.... him and Kovacic’s first half v Spurs was as good as I have seen from one of our midfield duos since Kante and Matic v Everton in the 5-0 game at the Bridge under Conte. I know they faded but the whole team did. Theyve kept playing at a decent level and hopefully it continues.

The only negative has probably been the reintroduction of Rudiger who showed how clueless he is v Sheffield with that OG that sums him up. 

agree about rudiger tbh...

I just feel their contributions have been been made to look better than they truly are because we have played teams that did not attack us, and that includes spurs who parked the bus and offered literally nothing going forward. The real tests will come in games v. teams that aren't afraid of going at us. If they continue playing well then, then fair enough and I will hold my hand up

Edited February 9, 2021 by oldportblue

[Jase 43,479]

6 minutes ago, Atomiswave said:

You cant compare Jason.....besides very few players had the abilities of Fab

Can't compare? You have people talking about Jorginho's passing like it's so WOW when it's nowhere near that. Imagine thinking his passing and the passing range is good after seeing what Fabregas did for us. 

[Atomiswave 6,117]

4 minutes ago, Jason said:

Can't compare? You have people talking about Jorginho's passing like it's so WOW when it's nowhere near that. Imagine thinking his passing and the passing range is good after seeing what Fabregas did for us. 

I dont know about all that but I for one will not compare the 2, non compatible....not similar at all. Im sure Jorgi will be good under TT but he will not be a Fab level player.

[Jase 43,479]

23 minutes ago, Miguelito said:

Why does it have to be one or the other? It's not black and white. They're totally different players.

Fab was much more of risk taker, brilliant creativity, long pass specialist. But he didn't control the tempo like jorginho does. He ran the show often but in a much different way. He was a decisive player who biggest impacts were often directly involved with goals.

Jorginho is a person who dictates tempo much more, keeps things flowing, creates a ton of space for teammates, but offers shorter passes. He is a player who's impact is often not directly involved with goals, but overall play.

You can appreciate both. I do. And I say that even though I wish gilmour would play more often over jorgi. No doubt jorgi has been brilliant since TT has taken over.

There's nothing stopping Jorginho from doing even half of what Fabregas did for us, especially when Jorginho himself has played those killer passes, albeit very rarely. 

[Jase 43,479]

13 minutes ago, oldportblue said:

agree about rudiger tbh...

I just feel their contributions have been been made to look better than they truly are because we have played teams that did not attack us, and that includes spurs who parked the bus and offered literally nothing going forward. The real tests will come in games v. teams that aren't afraid of going at us. If they continue playing well then, then fair enough and I will hold my hand up

Another consideration is that we are playing a back 3 at the moment, meaning Jorginho has a bit more protection to cover any of his defensive cock-ups, for example. What will happen when Tuchel switches to a back 4? 

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

17 minutes ago, Atomiswave said:

I dont know about all that but I for one will not compare the 2, non compatible....not similar at all. Im sure Jorgi will be good under TT but he will not be a Fab level player.

Their totally different playing styles and positions regardless. Ok Fabregas played deeper under Jose for a bit and with Conte in a MF 2 but under Wenger, Pep, the other Barcelona bosses and Del Bosque he was more of an advanced midfielder or even false 9 (more so for Spain at times after 2010) throughout the most of his career.

Comparing most modern day PL midfielders to Fabregas isnt fair either, Fabregas spent countless seasons in the PL and was always one of the best midfield players hands down without a shadow of a doubt, at Arsenal for a few seasons he was fantastic playing as the most advanced midfielder which eventually led to his move to Barca. Probably a modern day PL great, I mean if people consider the likes of Aguero, Kompany, Hazard boys like that then Fabregas is 1000% one, second top assists IIRC. His all round passing ability and final ball is something you rarely see now a days in central midfield players, he was always a threat with long passes in behind teams or short passes in behind teams. Midfield now seem to excel at one or the other. Not both. Bar a handful but these guys are the likes of De Bruyne, Thiago, Pogba and Fernandes. Who are top quality players.

But again Jorginho isnt a creative midfielder or even play in the same position Cesc has for the majority of his career. Its like comparing Kevin de Bruyne to Fernandinho. Two totally different players.

Edited February 9, 2021 by OneMoSalah

[Atomiswave 6,117]

10 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Their totally different playing styles and positions regardless. Ok Fabregas played deeper under Jose for a bit and with Conte in a MF 2 but under Wenger, Pep, the other Barcelona bosses and Del Bosque he was more of an advanced midfielder or even false 9 (more so for Spain at times after 2010) throughout the most of his career.

Comparing most modern day PL midfielders to Fabregas isnt fair either, Fabregas spent countless seasons in the PL and was always one of the best midfield players hands down without a shadow of a doubt, at Arsenal for a few seasons he was fantastic playing as the most advanced midfielder which eventually led to his move to Barca. Probably a modern day PL great, I mean if people consider the likes of Aguero, Kompany, Hazard boys like that then Fabregas is 1000% one, second top assists IIRC. His all round passing ability and final ball is something you rarely see now a days in central midfield players, he was always a threat with long passes in behind teams or short passes in behind teams. Midfield now seem to excel at one or the other. Not both. Bar a handful but these guys are the likes of De Bruyne, Thiago, Pogba and Fernandes. Who are top quality players.

But again Jorginho isnt a creative midfielder or even play in the same position Cesc has for the majority of his career. Its like comparing Kevin de Bruyne to Fernandinho. Two totally different players.

Yup exactly my point

[MoroccanBlue 5,382]

I think the most shocking thing about Cesc was that his legs completely blew out in a matter of months. After the 2015 title win, he was genuinely a turtle. 

[Vesper 30,186]

Fucking Juve choked 🤬

[Blue Armour 4,442]

On 09/02/2021 at 14:56, Jason said:

There's nothing stopping Jorginho from doing even half of what Fabregas did for us, especially when Jorginho himself has played those killer passes, albeit very rarely. 

Exactly my point. Even if there is an opening to play in someone like Werner in the final third, Jorginho 7/10 times opts not to do it and passes sideways.

He has made improvements under Tuchel no doubt, especially with the way he dealt with the Sheffield United press in the last league game, but his passing game leaves a lot to be desired.

[Jase 43,479]

41 minutes ago, Blue Armour said:

Exactly my point. Even if there is an opening to play in someone like Werner in the final third, Jorginho 7/10 times opts not to do it and passes sideways.

He has made improvements under Tuchel no doubt, especially with the way he dealt with the Sheffield United press in the last league game, but his passing game leaves a lot to be desired.

Precisely. He has shown that he can play those defence splitting passes, accurate over the top passes etc but chooses not to most of the time. Decides to pass it sideways/backwards, giving opponents chance to get back into their shape and making it harder to break through them. Moreover, if Jorginho really is good at controlling the tempo, we wouldn't be having so many basketball-esque games. Couple that frustrating aspect of his game with his defensive side of the game, it's so painful to watch. For example in the game against Sheffield United, there were a number of times he was robbed off the ball so easily and then didn't have the pace or physicality to win it back. IIRC, Mikel used to get the same criticism with his passing but at the very least, he had a defensive presence about him, even if he might be a different player. Jorginho's passing is mostly unambitious and doesn't have any defensive presence about him. 

[Tomo 21,751]

On 09/02/2021 at 19:48, Jason said:

Can't compare? You have people talking about Jorginho's passing like it's so WOW when it's nowhere near that. Imagine thinking his passing and the passing range is good after seeing what Fabregas did for us. 

On that basis we can never truly enjoy a LB again as they (likely) won't be as good as prime Cole.

[Tomo 21,751]

On 10/02/2021 at 14:28, MoroccanBlue said:

I think the most shocking thing about Cesc was that his legs completely blew out in a matter of months. After the 2015 title win, he was genuinely a turtle. 

It happened well before that especially from a defensive point of view, we were just on form as an overall team so it didn't matter much at that point.

[Jase 43,479]

21 minutes ago, Tomo said:

On that basis we can never truly enjoy a LB again as they (likely) won't be as good as prime Cole.

Don't be daft, Tomo...

[MoroccanBlue 5,382]

23 minutes ago, Tomo said:

It happened well before that especially from a defensive point of view, we were just on form as an overall team so it didn't matter much at that point.

When exactly? I remember the home game against Arsenal in 2015, and he was sprinting and tackling Sanchez. That genuinely seems like the last time I remember Cesc being able to run. 

Was there an injury we didn't know about involving Cesc's hamstring later that season or in 2016?

[Tomo 21,751]

19 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

When exactly? I remember the home game against Arsenal in 2015, and he was sprinting and tackling Sanchez. That genuinely seems like the last time I remember Cesc being able to run. 

Was there an injury we didn't know about involving Cesc's hamstring later that season or in 2016?

Pretty much from the off he was regularly bypassed in midfield off the ball, Swansea at home (Costa hattrick game) he specifically had a shocker defensively IIRC. 

Against any opposition of real note (especially away) Mou drafted Rami in and made it 433.