Closed Chelsea 1-1 Schalke

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

Kinda 'weird' that people are using the offensive role notion to defend Fabregas for his defensive performance when only 2-3 seasons ago, people were slating Lampard for not doing anything defensively in the pivot, despite him being tasked to do things offensively. Not saying Fabregas has been hopelessly bad in that midfield but his defensive work still leaves a lot to be desired.

Lampard's defensive work when we switched to a double pivot was somewhat underrated, imo.

[Jase 43,479]

IMO, so far he has been doing both his offensive and defensive duties better than Lampard in the last years. You can see he gets a lot of tackles to his name every game, he has been amongst the people who ran the most in the matches and yet he is assisting and creating chances like crazy. Of course there's always room for improvement, but I don't see how his performances have earned him the stick he has been getting lately. It's just not proportional.

Perhaps true but still doesn't quite warrant the 'weird unbalanced' judgment here. To use just his tackles statisctics as a way to justify his defensive performance is misleading. The whole team needs to improve on this as well but what is really bad about him right now from a defensive perspective is his pressing. It's like neither here nor there, gets too eager to press and then leaving silly spaces and gaps behind him.

[cosmicway 1,263]

Cesc tried to scuff that ball.

It's better to use the tip of your shoe in that position.

[Daniel1980 1,425]

@Daniel1980, @Dion, @The Skipper let's get a group hug and start a secret discussion group. I feel I'm understood among you guys about what we should expect from our 'number 7'.

If a few months ago someone told me I'd end up defending Fabregas, I'd think they're crazy.

But the stick he's been getting lately is really unbelievable. It's like people never watched him play before for Arsenal and forgot what kind of player he is. Or maybe the problem is it's exactly why it's easy to single him out for his poor defensive contribution--because he's an ex-Arsenal player.

[Jase 43,479]

Pretty incomparable because Lampard is nowhere near Fabregas when it comes to creativity, sorry. Fabregas is much better in that deeper role than Lampard is. Same way Fabregas is nowhere near Lamps when it comes to goal scoring. Besides, we didn't even play with a pivot today. It was a 4-3-3, and we weren't even that bad defensively but we allowed Schalke to grow in confidence by not killing the game. If Fabregas scores before HT, if Drogba scores his chances, if Hazard scores his... It's a completely different game mentally.

Precisely what I said. Why should his offensive contributions (which has been great) should be used for his defensive deficiencies? If this was Lampard, I would be criticizing him too. 'Weirdly unbalanced' judgment. Yes, we've scored those chances, the game would have been different but you're in denial if you think Fabregas is good defensively. And did I even mention anything about us playing 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 today?

[The Skipper 20,593]

The bottom line is Cesc can improve on his play when Chelsea don't have the ball. That much is clear. We've only played 5 games so far, and it's going to take some time for us as a team to adjust to having an extra attack-minded player in midfield, that's obvious. But the over-the-top stuff in response to very light criticism doesn't make room for healthy discussion. It's not something ludicrous to say like "Drogba had an amazingly good performance" today

Thing is... It isn't just him that needs to improve on his play when we don't have the ball. It's the whole trio in midfield that needs to improve together; but some are making it sound like it's all on Fabregas to improve when that is simply not true. Matic, Fabregas, Ramires & Oscar all need to improve on it but Cesc gets picked out like he's the only one that's doing it wrong. You said in the live match thread that Fabregas had been 'very poor' at some time in the second half as well (think it was before he created that chance for Hazard) if I remember correctly, so it isn't very light criticism either.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Precisely what I said. Why should his offensive contributions (which has been great) should be used for his defensive deficiencies? If this was Lampard, I would be criticizing him too. 'Weirdly unbalanced' judgment. Yes, we've scored those chances, the game would have been different but you're in denial if you think Fabregas is good defensively. And did I even mention anything about us playing 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 today?

No one is saying Fabregas is amazing defensively but he was okay today... It's just a weird comparison because we played a completely different system that relies much more on defensive prowess from your deeper players when Frank was here. Frank's role in the last few seasons isn't really that similar to Fabregas' right now IMO.

[Jase 43,479]

Thing is... It isn't just him that needs to improve on his play when we don't have the ball. It's the whole trio in midfield that needs to improve together; but some are making it sound like it's all on Fabregas to improve when that is simply not true. Matic, Fabregas, Ramires & Oscar all need to improve on it but Cesc gets picked out like he's the only one that's doing it wrong. You said in the live match thread that Fabregas had been 'very poor' at some time in the second half as well (think it was before he created that chance for Hazard) if I remember correctly, so it isn't very light criticism either.

I agree but the thing is though, if the others happen not to be doing it, then Fabregas should hold back a little bit. Otherwise, it's silly when he press and the others do not, and suddenly we get passed around so easily.

[The Skipper 20,593]

I agree but the thing is though, if the others happen not to be doing it, then Fabregas should hold back a little bit. Otherwise, it's silly when he press and the others do not, and suddenly we get passed around so easily.

Oh yeah definitely, but it's something we need to adjust in the system slightly. It'll take time to perfect. Perfect pressing isn't something you pick up over a few games, it'll take a few months to get it to a good level.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

Thing is... It isn't just him that needs to improve on his play when we don't have the ball. It's the whole trio in midfield that needs to improve together; but some are making it sound like it's all on Fabregas to improve when that is simply not true. Matic, Fabregas, Ramires & Oscar all need to improve on it but Cesc gets picked out like he's the only one that's doing it wrong. You said in the live match thread that Fabregas had been 'very poor' at some time in the second half as well (think it was before he created that chance for Hazard) if I remember correctly, so it isn't very light criticism either.

It was the first time I criticized him because I feel he's been brilliant since he joined us. The "some that are making it sound like" doesn't include me but Barbara indirectly replied to my "poor" comment by saying some want to make Cesc a "scape-goat", which is closer to paranoia than reality. I personally wanted us to sign him when he was still a Barca player (posted that on his former page), while some posters here, who are now big time Fabregas fans, were still on the childish "Ex-Arsenal captain" / "Lampard hater" type thing.

I haven't noticed any particular poster constantly criticizing Cesc all the time or that has an agenda towards him or anything of the sort. And yes, Fabregas was far from the worst midfielder out there. I thought Ramires had a shocker.

[Jase 43,479]

Oh yeah definitely, but it's something we need to adjust in the system slightly. It'll take time to perfect. Perfect pressing isn't something you pick up over a few games, it'll take a few months to get it to a good level.

As a unit yes but as an individual, it's not rocket science to know that you shouldn't go pressing blindly when your teammates are not, especially for an intelligent player like Fabregas. And it's even worse when this is not the first time it has happened.

[The_Flash 1,144]

Absolute pish that Liverpool end up only English club to win in CL and it was *** victory

[thekid9 418]

Drogba? Why?

Jose fucked this one! I remembered tonight why I used to get so aggravated with Drogba, If he's not up for it....he gives NOTHING! Ba,Eto'o,Torres.....if not playing well...at least defended, held the ball up etc...

Drogba couldn't even hold a ball up tonight!

Pathetic from Jose 1. that he started 2. that he was still on at the start of the second half!

They had a makeshift defence and we made them look brilliant.

and to top it all off, our goal should never have stood, let's be honest.

Horrendous, not good enough.

[Barbara 15,149]

Precisely what I said. Why should his offensive contributions (which has been great) should be used for his defensive deficiencies? If this was Lampard, I would be criticizing him too. 'Weirdly unbalanced' judgment. Yes, we've scored those chances, the game would have been different but you're in denial if you think Fabregas is good defensively. And did I even mention anything about us playing 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 today?

It's not his offensive contributions that are used to overlook his defensive 'deficiencies'. The problem imo is people having completely distorted expectations about what's his role in the team. His offensive RESPONSIBILITIES (not contributions) are what make his defensive RESPONSIBILITIES lighter - but by no means nonexistent. As a DLP or second pivot player, or top midfielder in a triangle he's been executing his defensive responsibilities just fine - with a few mistakes here and there (the whole team bar Costa has been making mistakes).

It isn't because he has 6 assists that he's forgiven for his defensive mistakes. It's because he's here to assist and control the tempo of our midfield that he won't be hold as much responsible for defending as some expect. Mourinho has been so clear about why he was brought here, about what we needed, but it seems people can't accept it... or the problem is something else...

I'm sorry for saying it, and I'm starting a new paragraph because this is aimed only at you or even at you at all, but it seems like some fans despite their complaints the whole of last season about how defensive we were set up and how dull and predictable our attack was, aren't ready at all for a new approach. Like, not even close ready for it. People want us to continue to excel defensively while being an attacking minded team - sorry, it's physically and numerically impossible. Others want our pivot/midfield to be as static and conservative as last year, sorry, but that's a change Mourinho wanted and the very reason why Cesc was brought here. And I'm sorry, but if a player is here to be a playmaker, regardless if played as a #10, #8 or false #7, we can't demand him to be an ace defensively. There's a distance between the workhorse and the guy who puts a shift defensively. Fàbregas has been executing - for most of it - what is expected from him both defensively and offensively. He only needs to polish some of his actions and get a better understanding with his new teammates. He can improve, but he can't change into this play some people are expecting (first, that's not who he is; second, that's not why he's here for). I don't even understand where they're coming from, what exactly they expect. I mean, is the expectation to play with two #6? Is for him to have the same energy, pace and stamina as Ramires? Is for him to double Oscar's tackles stats of his first four months last season? what do people want? I can't understand. Nothing seems reasonable... it seems like they want him to be what he isn't and for him to play a role he wasn't brought here to play.

The root of the problem is that people want us to be a more attractive, but they aren't ready to accept the demands that comes with it. It's very simple actually. Comparisons with Lamps shouldn't even be made in the first place. Different players, different responsibilities given by José, but mainly different approaches of the game between then and now. It's like trying to get a square plug into a round switch - there's a saying for that in English, but I forgot it.

The "some that are making it sound like" doesn't include me but Barbara indirectly replied to my "poor" comment by saying some want to make Cesc a "scape-goat", which is closer to paranoia than reality.

mate, then I'm sorry. I'm not pointing at you or saying it's your fault. I'm sharing my perception about a whole group in the forum. I don't even remember what's your instance about him. The only one I remember who criticizes him a lot is Styles. The rest I don't register who, but the posts themselves. People are singling him out, being unreasonable about his responsibilities vs their expectations. If you fit or not in them, I can't say, but I didn't mean YOU are using him as a scapegoat. I meant that's the feeling I have. Some people here aren't 100% sold on him as a Chelsea player, regardless of what position he'll play here. They should be honest about their reservations about Fàbregas, the guy/player, instead of making it sound like he can't play the pivot or the midfield without compromising. They're simply not sold on him being a Chelsea player. Simple.

[thekid9 418]

PS, who the hell voted Drogba man of the match?

His mum and dad?

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

I don't think people are scapegoating him(aside from a few people who had an intense dislike for him from the beginning). I think the issue is some people have too high expectations of him when it comes to defending. Some people are confusing something. You can stick him deep in the midfield but you can't expect him to perform as well as defensive midfielders. It isn't Cesc's role. He isn't a defensive midfielder. He isn't very good at defending. Expecting playmakers like Pirlo and Fabregas to be defensive geniuses is the same as expecting Mikel to make a perfect through-ball in every game: it can happen once in a while, but it's not his main job. If you choose to play with a deep-lying playmaker, you should just accept his weaknesses and enjoy his creative contribution. Fabregas deserves to be criticized if he doesn't contribute creatively--which is clearly not the case--or distributes the ball poorly, but blaming him for his weak defensive contribution is like blaming Matic for not getting an assist in every game. Why do we not blame Matic for not creating enough chances every game? Every player has their own main role and it shouldn't be confused. Or do we seriously expect Fabregas do the job of a creative midfielder and a defensive midfielder equally well?

For a playmaker, Fabregas contributed enough defensively today, IMO. He certainly wasn't a passenger. He made 3 tackles and was far from lazy, always trying to win the ball--with limited success, admittedly. Oscar, Hazard and Willian made 0 tackles today; Oscar and Willian made 0 interceptions. Why aren't they getting the same criticism for their poor defensive contribution? Because they run faster and appear more hard-working? The thing with Fabregas is, there's the perception that he's very poor defensively and people single him out because of that. While he really isn't a genius defensively, for a playmaker he's decent. He wasn't any poorer defensively than Willian or Hazard today.

Maybe I just have low expectations than some. Years watching Pirlo not give shit about defensive work does wonders to one's expectations.

I agree with most of what you're saying here. You can't assign the same principles to a lamb to that of a lion... Completely agree there. We are trying to be more proactive in attack, as a result we are more open defensively. No more blame game though, the reason Oscar, Hazard and Willian had no tackles is because most of Schalke's attack went through the middle of the pitch where, if you ask me we were tactically poor once again. Ramires, Fab and Matic just didn't boss the game. They weren't terrible but we didn't get a lot of turnovers and lost the ball at crucial times with acres of space between our "holding mids" and our defenders. Its a byproduct of pressing forward and trying to be proactive so I'm not too worried. Once Cahill learns not to back off a striker inside the 18 yard box we'll be fine.

Carefree... We're still one of the most balanced teams in Europe capable of playing in a variety of games.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Pretty incomparable because Lampard is nowhere near Fabregas when it comes to creativity, sorry. Fabregas is much better in that deeper role than Lampard is. Same way Fabregas is nowhere near Lamps when it comes to goal scoring. Besides, we didn't even play with a pivot today. It was a 4-3-3, and we weren't even that bad defensively but we allowed Schalke to grow in confidence by not killing the game. If Fabregas scores before HT, if Drogba scores his chances, if Hazard scores his... It's a completely different game mentally.

We weren't bad but I wouldn't say we were sound either. 4-3-3 is a system used to control the pace of the game and way too many times we saw Schalke running at our back 4(or 3 with Ivanovic bombing forward) with acres of space. That's the problem people see with this "defense" we're way too susceptible to getting played around in the middle of the pitch where in the past we controlled it. Its basically us looking to be on the front foot more and exposing ourselves at the back.

[dee25 1,044]

I really don't understand the thinking that since Cesc wasn't the only player that did something wrong, there isn't then a legitimate claim to criticize him. How does that work exactly? Do we now have to wait for the other 10 players to put in top performances before we can then feel justified in shinning the lens on Cesc? What I'm seeing are people being unnecessarily hypersensitive for reasons I really don't know why.

For me personally, I certainly wasn't expecting him to be a defensive behemoth (I don't think anyone was) but I was expecting him to be a lot more controlled in midfield and a lot more assured in possession when under pressure. That wasn't the first time he was easily dispossessed in our own half and I don't trust him to retain possession when he's being pressed. The through balls and 6 assists are nice, but I just think that he'll go through a period where the assists will dry out and I hope he'll be able to show something more.