🇷🇸 Nemanja Matic

[Spike 12,049]

6 hours ago, BlueLion said:

 

I have the most neutral English accent possible coming from the East Midlands, so you'd find my voice quite boring! 

Much like other aspects of your life. Personality, romance, adventure; all quite boring.

[Henrique 9,133]

On 3 de fevereiro de 2016 at 8:51 PM, Robguima said:

Unfair IMO - people must know he's playing out of position, right?

He's not the paciest of guys and is roaming around like a headless chicken because that's his role when sitting next to Mikel.

Concerning our lack of creativity and attacking, that's on the manager - no other. He starts both DMs against Watford which invites the draw. He's playing safe.

Stand by the obvious: Matic has played at a very high level before and very consistently at that. Ignore the evidence all you like, but for me you'd be dissing one of the the few excellent players we got in the squad.

We are not talking about a player like Hazard playing as CF, or a player like Mata playing as a winger that is supposed to mark the opponents and is stuck in the left side of the pitch, or even Ramires playing as winger. Those player were playing out of position. You can't say the same about Matic. You are only saying the same thing I've been saying about Matic since day one: he is a one dimensional player. A player that would do fine in one very specific tactic, approach and position. If he can't even play as a 2nd DM otherwise he will play like a headless chick, as you said, then he is no more than an one dimensional player. 

Matic is not dynamic and he is incredibly slow. He is one of the main reasons why this team has always been so vulnerable to counter attacks. 

[Gilvorak 3,734]

6 hours ago, Henrique said:

We are not talking about a player like Hazard playing as CF, or a player like Mata playing as a winger that is supposed to mark the opponents and is stuck in the left side of the pitch, or even Ramires playing as winger. Those player were playing out of position. You can't say the same about Matic. You are only saying the same thing I've been saying about Matic since day one: he is a one dimensional player. A player that would do fine in one very specific tactic, approach and position. If he can't even play as a 2nd DM otherwise he will play like a headless chick, as you said, then he is no more than an one dimensional player. 

Matic is not dynamic and he is incredibly slow. He is one of the main reasons why this team has always been so vulnerable to counter attacks. 

You don't even need pace to be a great DM if your positional sense is great. Look at Alonso, Kroos, Busquets, Motta etc

[robsblubot 3,595]

16 hours ago, Henrique said:

We are not talking about a player like Hazard playing as CF, or a player like Mata playing as a winger that is supposed to mark the opponents and is stuck in the left side of the pitch, or even Ramires playing as winger. Those player were playing out of position. You can't say the same about Matic. You are only saying the same thing I've been saying about Matic since day one: he is a one dimensional player. A player that would do fine in one very specific tactic, approach and position. If he can't even play as a 2nd DM otherwise he will play like a headless chick, as you said, then he is no more than an one dimensional player. 

Matic is not dynamic and he is incredibly slow. He is one of the main reasons why this team has always been so vulnerable to counter attacks. 

I disagree with (almost) every point you made in this post.  We'd need take it to another thread not to derail this one. BTW, Mata and Ramires are still looking for their position. 

Also, when you wrote Matic is not dynamic, who are you disagreeing with here? I for one did not say he was. However, a wide gulf separates "Not Dynamic" from "incredibly slow." I'd call Mikel incredibly slow, as Alexis would attest. Matic is slow just like Yaya is. They are both pretty tall and heavy.

It's all really relative. DMs in general are more one dimensional players - it's a called a defensive specialist for a reason. Some are more than others... stats would help see that. A quite obvious way to go would be: Defense stats + Attacking stats / 2 = roundedness... hardly rocket science.

I remember you going on an on about Matic missing that open goal chance in the counter HE PULLED!

Am I the crazy one who wants the guy who had 6 MotM in the PL last season!!! back?

2015/2016

Chelsea

EPL

19(4)

1653

1

-

4

1

1.2

88.7

1.3

-

6.96

2014/2015

Chelsea

EPL

35(1)

3124

1

3

10

1

0.8

86.4

2.1

6

7.50

2013/2014

Chelsea

EPL

15(2)

1364

-

4

3

-

0.8

84.8

2.8

1

7.63

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/38128/History/Nemanja-Matic

BTW, Matic's worse form at Chelsea gets him a rounded 7 this season. That's the equivalent of Mikel's best PL in 10 years... hint: it's not this one.

We just have to agree to disagree on this one. I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine.

 

[Blue Armour 4,442]

Started poorly in the first 30 mins, but grew into the game afterwards to create more chances. 

Mikel and Matic in the starting lineup was not needed for this game. Should be used only against teams that are really dominant with possession. 

[Henrique 9,133]

20 hours ago, Robguima said:

I disagree with (almost) every point you made in this post.  We'd need take it to another thread not to derail this one. BTW, Mata and Ramires are still looking for their position. 

Also, when you wrote Matic is not dynamic, who are you disagreeing with here? I for one did not say he was. However, a wide gulf separates "Not Dynamic" from "incredibly slow." I'd call Mikel incredibly slow, as Alexis would attest. Matic is slow just like Yaya is. They are both pretty tall and heavy.

It's all really relative. DMs in general are more one dimensional players - it's a called a defensive specialist for a reason. Some are more than others... stats would help see that. A quite obvious way to go would be: Defense stats + Attacking stats / 2 = roundedness... hardly rocket science.

I remember you going on an on about Matic missing that open goal chance in the counter HE PULLED!

Am I the crazy one who wants the guy who had 6 MotM in the PL last season!!! back?

2015/2016

Chelsea

EPL

19(4)

1653

1

-

4

1

1.2

88.7

1.3

-

6.96

2014/2015

Chelsea

EPL

35(1)

3124

1

3

10

1

0.8

86.4

2.1

6

7.50

2013/2014

Chelsea

EPL

15(2)

1364

-

4

3

-

0.8

84.8

2.8

1

7.63

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/38128/History/Nemanja-Matic

BTW, Matic's worse form at Chelsea gets him a rounded 7 this season. That's the equivalent of Mikel's best PL in 10 years... hint: it's not this one.

We just have to agree to disagree on this one. I am not going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine.

 

I never care about those ratings and stats, and I don't care about the MotM thing. I remember 2012 FA Cup final when Mata barely touched the ball, but somehow he ended as MotM.

[chelseafan26 293]

WOW. Talk about over-reacting and exaggerating.

I know matic has been well below his standards but that makes him an average player? I guess, then hazard is another "average" player too because he has been horrendous.

Matic is without a doubt one of the best DMs in the world. One average season will not change that specially when the whole team has been so poor. He was "the" reason for us to be so ruthless last season. Anyone discounting these facts needs a reality check

[OhForAGreavsie 6,075]

28 minutes ago, chelseafan26 said:

Matic is without a doubt one of the best DMs in the world.

I'm afraid there is plenty of doubt about it. Never mind in the outside world, just check the number of TC members who clearly doubt it.

28 minutes ago, chelseafan26 said:

One average season will not change that

Matic has had one good season at Chelsea. (Actually two half seasons.)  Since Christmas 2014 his form has been below Premier League standard and way, way below world class.

28 minutes ago, chelseafan26 said:

He was "the" reason for us to be so ruthless last season.

We were not ruthless last season. We had an inspired start followed by a general drop of form most of the way towards our current standards. The odd good performance in the second half of the season does not disguise  that our players needed to be dragged over the finish line by a genius of a manager.

28 minutes ago, chelseafan26 said:

Anyone discounting these facts needs a reality check

I'm happy to accept that it must not be true but, anyone reading the post to which I'm replying could be forgiven for thinking that you can't tell the difference between what is a fact, and what is your own opinion.

[chelseafan26 293]

11 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

I'm afraid there is plenty of doubt about it. Never mind in the outside world, just check the number of TC members who clearly doubt it.

Matic has had one good season at Chelsea. (Actually two half seasons.)  Since Christmas 2014 his form has been below Premier League standard and way, way below world class.

We were not ruthless last season. We had an inspired start followed by a general drop of form most of the way towards our current standards. The odd good performance in the second half of the season does not disguise   that our players needed to be dragged over the finish line by a genius of a manager.

I'm happy to accept that it must not be true but, anyone reading the post to which I'm replying could be forgiven for thinking that you can't tell the difference between what is a fact and what is your opinion.

So except for busquets who is better than matic? Just 6/7 months ago he was tipped to be the best DM in the world.

Matic has had 1 and a half good seasons at chelsea. He was the reason why we could keep winning 1-0s. Which brings me to the point of being "ruthless". Yes, we had a brilliant start followed by cesc and costa going off the boil, oscar being average in the 2nd half of the season and over-reliance on hazard in attack. Matic on the other hand, still put in world class performances match after match.

Well, reading your opinion, I can think of only one thing. In today's world, you are only as good as your last match. In the outside world, matic is still tipped to be one of the best DMs in the world. He would walk into any team in the world except for Barca.

[Gilvorak 3,734]

Matic was average after Luiz left. He had the odd WC performance but he was extremely inconsistent and especially horrendous in the big games. Let's not forget what a ten man PSG did to him.

People scapegoated Cesc for his incompetence but nothing's changed even with Mikel beside him.

[OhForAGreavsie 6,075]

24 minutes ago, chelseafan26 said:

So except for busquets who is better than matic?

Can't really help you with a complete list but look up the starting XIs in last weekend's Premier League games and you'll find at least a dozen. Extend your search beyond the Premier League and you'll only stop finding additional alternatives when you get bored of the exercise.

 

24 minutes ago, chelseafan26 said:

Just 6/7 months ago he was tipped to be the best DM in the world.

Not by me, or by anyone whose opinion I respect on this subject. I will grant you that six months before that many would have bought into the claim.

24 minutes ago, chelseafan26 said:

Matic has had 1 and a half good seasons at chelsea. He was the reason why we could keep winning 1-0s. Which brings me to the point of being "ruthless". Yes, we had a brilliant start followed by cesc and costa going off the boil, oscar being average in the 2nd half of the season and over-reliance on hazard in attack. Matic on the other hand, still put in world class performances match after match.

I can accept all of this as your opinion. Just don't try to present it as fact.

24 minutes ago, chelseafan26 said:

In today's world, you are only as good as your last match.

Well that's a little disrespectful but I'll have to live with it. I happen to think that my opinions are considered, balanced and well judged. I suppose I would though wouldn't I.

24 minutes ago, chelseafan26 said:

In the outside world, matic is still tipped to be one of the best DMs in the world

Who do you mean? Fans who don't watch Chelsea or pundits who make their living repeating clichés and passing comment on games they haven't seen? In fairness I accept that there are probably some people who think Matic is among the best. I'm not one of them however.

[chelseafan26 293]

13 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Can't really help you with a complete list but look up the starting XIs in last weekend's Premier League games and you'll find at least a dozen. Extend your search beyond the Premier League and you'll stop finding additional alternative when you get bored of the exercise.

 

Not by me, or by anyone whose opinion I respect on this subject. I will grant you that six months before that many would have bought into the claim.

I can accept all of this as your opinion. Just don't try to present it as fact.

Well that's a little disrespectful but I'll have to live with it. I happen to think that my opinions are considered, balanced and well judged. I suppose I would though wouldn't I.

Who do you mean? Fans who don't watch Chelsea or pundits who make their living repeating clichés and passing comment on games they haven't seen? In fairness I accept that there are probably some people who think Matic is among the nest. I'm not one of them however.

You will find a dozen DMs better than matic in PL? There is a difference in having opinions and delusions.

So you dont respect Jose's opinion, or neville, or carragher or henry or basically every pundit even remotely linked to PL?

Is not that what you are doing?

Your opinion that there are a dozen Dms better than matic is well balances and well judged? I find that hard to believe.

[OhForAGreavsie 6,075]

1 minute ago, chelseafan26 said:

s not that what you are doing?

No.

[ulvhedin 526]

On 7.02.2016 at 11:23 AM, Gilvorak said:

You don't even need pace to be a great DM if your positional sense is great. Look at Alonso, Kroos, Busquets, Motta etc

Kroos a great DM???

[chelseafan26 293]

9 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

No.

Hardly something to argue about.

Anyways, people dont want to deal with stats (as said by someone in the previous page), neither do they want to accept the opinions of reputed pundits and legendary players. Hard to argue with such a lot.

 All I can say is that Matic is a world class. One of the 3 we have in this squad apart from costa and hazard. We, as a Club, are in one of the worst moments in the Roman history and something that a lot of the fans are not accustomed to. Hardly a surprise that there are such over the top opinions all around.

[Gilvorak 3,734]

1 hour ago, ulvhedin said:

Kroos a great DM???

He plays that role well for Germany and Madrid.

[ulvhedin 526]

1 hour ago, Gilvorak said:

He plays that role well for Germany and Madrid.

Let's agree to disagree here, I think these teams were ok defensively because of great offense

And right now I don't know about Germany, but in Madrid Kroos is definitely not great. On the other hand whole Madrid team is mess right now

[Peace. 4,352]

On 5/2/2016 at 1:39 AM, Robguima said:

Difficult to discuss your disagreement with a point I did not make.

Did I say Hiddink told Matic to run around like a headless chicken? What would happen if you ask Mikel to be a box-to-box CM? Or if you asked Fabregas to play DM? Get the point?

He was asked to do something he is not capable of; only to fit a DM whose role has to be explained over an over again: please check Mikel's *defensive* numbers in context of his "role" in the team. Or go ahead and check his attacking numbers then... 

Now if are telling me that Matic is incapable of playing DM I'd point you to tons of evidence showing otherwise. I know we don't like those around here as they come against colorful ideas and analogies.

Of course Matic is slow, as is Mikel. However, the evidence, both market value as well as stats, tell the story I choose to buy. If you buy something different, then so be it.

 

 

The one who is talking about something that was not mentioned is you, not me. Why did you have to throw Mikel into the debate ? The argument was never a Matic-Mikel comparison but it was strictly focused on Magic and more specifically on one aspect : is he a headless chicken or not. Leave Mikel alone as he has nothing to do with Matic's intrinsic qualities and capabilities. And anyway, do you think that a player that plays 'at a very high level [,,,] and very consistently at that' needs to be compared to a distinctly average player in order to look good ?

No, you did not say that Hiddink asked Matic to run around like a headless chicken, nor did I say you did. However, you did say that '[he is] roaming around like a headless chicken because that's his role when sitting next to Mikel'. You are explicitly talking — or writing — about a 'role'. And to illustrate the absurdity of such a notion, I did use an unsophisticated and imaginary example : a situation where a manager tells his player to play the 'headless chicken' role, and what is his counterpart, that is the 'intelligent player' role. Of course it never happens, because such roles do not exist. And if they do not exist, this is because you either are intelligent or not — this is a quality, not a function. The role you probably are talking about is the role of the player that will harass the opponent or something along the lines. On the one hand, you will have players that will perform their role efficiently and properly because they have the ability to read the game or have a good sense of positioning ; on the second hand, you will have players that will perform the role in an efficient way and in a disorderly way because they do not possess such qualities and they ultimately have to run after the ball and/or the opponent. Matic belongs to the second category because he precisely does not possess these qualities.

You can talk about numbers and stats all you want, but you are missing the point. I was not talking about his end-product — in short, is he good or not —, or even if he is capable of playing as a DM, but whether he is a headless-chicken or not. As I have suggested in my previous comment, you can have good headless-chickens, too. It was the case with Ramires. The Brazilian was running around like a headless-chicken because he merely did not have a clue of what was going around. Yet he was good at this because he was so fast he could easily catch up his opponent ; and once this opponent was caught up, Ramires like a bull would recklessly ram him and knock him down. As I have also explained in my previous comment, back at the time Matic was a 'good' headless-chicken because the team was defending deeply and conservatively and with all the players committed to an important defensive role (you can also argue that there were four center-backs as Azpilicueta wa more often next to Terry than in offense). As a matter of fact, his lack of vision and of sense of positioning was negated because there was simply little space to run and thus — grosso modo — he only had to extend his leg to win back the ball or to break down the opponent's offensive. Now things are different and our team is less compact, which means he has to run — though as he is slow and cannot read the game, he is a bad headless-chicken. In both situations, Matic remains a headless-chicken. The only difference is that one situation negates his limitations — nay glorifies his qualities, that is his long legs and his standing-tackles — while the other stresses out the very same limitations.

And this is exactly what would happen if, as you suggest, Mikel was playing as a box-to-box and Fabregas as a DM. Such positions would highlight these two players' deficiencies while negating their qualities. In conclusion, Matic does not roam around like a headless chicken because of Mikel or anyone else, but because he is kind of forced to do so as he has none awareness of positioning and is not good at reading the game, which is highlighted by the new organisation of the team.

[mccg 1,528]

 

Hopefully in the summer we get a world class all round CM ...again ffs

[robsblubot 3,595]

24 minutes ago, Peace. said:

 

The one who is talking about something that was not mentioned is you, not me. Why did you have to throw Mikel into the debate ? The argument was never a Matic-Mikel comparison but it was strictly focused on Magic and more specifically on one aspect : is he a headless chicken or not. Leave Mikel alone as he has nothing to do with Matic's intrinsic qualities and capabilities. And anyway, do you think that a player that plays 'at a very high level [,,,] and very consistently at that' needs to be compared to a distinctly average player in order to look good ?

No, you did not say that Hiddink asked Matic to run around like a headless chicken, nor did I say you did. However, you did say that '[he is] roaming around like a headless chicken because that's his role when sitting next to Mikel'. You are explicitly talking — or writing — about a 'role'. And to illustrate the absurdity of such a notion, I did use an unsophisticated and imaginary example : a situation where a manager tells his player to play the 'headless chicken' role, and what is his counterpart, that is the 'intelligent player' role. Of course it never happens, because such roles do not exist. And if they do not exist, this is because you either are intelligent or not — this is a quality, not a function. The role you probably are talking about is the role of the player that will harass the opponent or something along the lines. On the one hand, you will have players that will perform their role efficiently and properly because they have the ability to read the game or have a good sense of positioning ; on the second hand, you will have players that will perform the role in an efficient way and in a disorderly way because they do not possess such qualities and they ultimately have to run after the ball and/or the opponent. Matic belongs to the second category because he precisely does not possess these qualities.

You can talk about numbers and stats all you want, but you are missing the point. I was not talking about his end-product — in short, is he good or not —, or even if he is capable of playing as a DM, but whether he is a headless-chicken or not. As I have suggested in my previous comment, you can have good headless-chickens, too. It was the case with Ramires. The Brazilian was running around like a headless-chicken because he merely did not have a clue of what was going around. Yet he was good at this because he was so fast he could easily catch up his opponent ; and once this opponent was caught up, Ramires like a bull would recklessly ram him and knock him down. As I have also explained in my previous comment, back at the time Matic was a 'good' headless-chicken because the team was defending deeply and conservatively and with all the players committed to an important defensive role (you can also argue that there were four center-backs as Azpilicueta wa more often next to Terry than in offense). As a matter of fact, his lack of vision and of sense of positioning was negated because there was simply little space to run and thus — grosso modo — he only had to extend his leg to win back the ball or to break down the opponent's offensive. Now things are different and our team is less compact, which means he has to run — though as he is slow and cannot read the game, he is a bad headless-chicken. In both situations, Matic remains a headless-chicken. The only difference is that one situation negates his limitations — nay glorifies his qualities, that is his long legs and his standing-tackles — while the other stresses out the very same limitations.

And this is exactly what would happen if, as you suggest, Mikel was playing as a box-to-box and Fabregas as a DM. Such positions would highlight these two players' deficiencies while negating their qualities. In conclusion, Matic does not roam around like a headless chicken because of Mikel or anyone else, but because he is kind of forced to do so as he has none awareness of positioning and is not good at reading the game, which is highlighted by the new organisation of the team.

"because that's his role "

that was also your conclusion.

Point taken that you feel Matic was always a headless chicken - I disagree. I think his positioning is indeed his weaknesses - all players have weaknesses) however, the team's overall poor form is exposing matic's (and other players) deficiencies.

Concerning Mikel, I find it pretty incredible that people do not see that Mikel affects Matic directly as Mikel sits - not very mobile anyway.

3 variables this season/lately:

a Mikel starting next to Matic - changing Matic's role a bit.

b team's overall poor form.

c matic's poor form

And yet you and others here focus exclusively on Matic's poor form - even though football is a team game. 

So, agreeing to disagree again here.