No.10 Role

[didierforever 7,349]

That champions league where, if you didnt read the teamsheet, you wouldnt have known he was playing?

Come on let us be honest with ourselves here. Schurlle and Willian are hardly amateurs, and much better on the wing than him.

first things first, calling schurlle and willian as amatuers is a slap on their faces. and i dint do that. so dont include me in that part of the argument.

secondly, if u dint read the teamsheet then u would not have known any chelsea player was on the pitch except for DD and CECH. we played that way but we won.

thirdly, i dont see how schurlle and willian are better wingers than mata at this moment. none of them stick to the wing. keep cutting in and the end story that happens is that the midfield gets too crowd, defending becomes easier for the opposition team. and so far schurlle has not shown any moment of magic that would make him extraordinary. as for willian i hope he does create magic in the chances he gets. so if u dont provide natural width, and if u dont have that extra flair that hazard has, and if u simply keep getting central and make us narrow, then i dont see how they are better. sure, they do provide brilliant work-rates and are much better defensively but right now,with a striker force which has an ideal target of 5 goals this season, we need goals from the midfield. and mata provides us with those.

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

first things first, calling schurlle and willian as amatuers is a slap on their faces. and i dint do that. so dont include me in that part of the argument.

secondly, if u dint read the teamsheet then u would not have known any chelsea player was on the pitch except for DD and CECH. we played that way but we won.

thirdly, i dont see how schurlle and willian are better wingers than mata at this moment. none of them stick to the wing. keep cutting in and the end story that happens is that the midfield gets too crowd, defending becomes easier for the opposition team. and so far schurlle has not shown any moment of magic that would make him extraordinary. as for willian i hope he does create magic in the chances he gets. so if u dont provide natural width, and if u dont have that extra flair that hazard has, and if u simply keep getting central and make us narrow, then i dont see how they are better. sure, they do provide brilliant work-rates and are much better defensively but right now,with a striker force which has an ideal target of 5 goals this season, we need goals from the midfield. and mata provides us with those.

They are better because they are faster and have a higher work rate. That is why they were bought. This is also why Oscar is getting chosen above Mata. The comment by Mourinho was clear in terms of "Specific tasks"

Mata will get plenty of minutes this season though. We are in a ton of competitions, and he should be the first name on the teamsheet for the capital one cup, and maybe even the FA cup when the schedule gets packed.

[Jcar92 66]

goal keeper - same

defense - same

pivot midfield - same

striker - same (or as efficient as last year)

the main thing that has changed is the coach and the way he is playing oscar over mata. so while they might not be our ONLY problem, they are defintely one of the main problems.

Dude, the players are the same... So what? I already saw teams that didnt change anything in the starter eleven and still had completely different ways of play. I'm sure that even you can remeber of situations like that, this without mention that our players are getting older and may not be in the same state of mind and physic like before. The national team of brazil is one example of this. The team that was with Felipão is not that different from what Mano Menezes tried... And everyone saw the difference.

Main problem? For me is most like trying to put both together. And even if this is a problem, i still believe that is not what is making we lose... Let alone be one of our main problems.

[didierforever 7,349]

They are better because they are faster and have a higher work rate. That is why they were bought. This is also why Oscar is getting chosen above Mata. The comment by Mourinho was clear in terms of "Specific tasks"

Mata will get plenty of minutes this season though. We are in a ton of competitions, and he should be the first name on the teamsheet for the capital one cup, and maybe even the FA cup when the schedule gets packed.

better workrates and faster does not make them BETTER. mata scores goals and makes oppurtunities for the goals. something which neither willian nor schurlle have been able to do. as for jose's statement, taking off willian whose workrate is awesome and put in mata who is kept out due to his defensive frivolities, when we are 1-0 up, i dont think mata should be the first one to be blamed. it was a poor substitution.

so if mata starts fa and carling cup games, then atleast we ll win some trophies this season. while we would be losing to a team like BASEL at STAMFORD FUCKING BRIDGE (kindly tell me when was our last home defeat in europe, about 3 -4 years ago against united) and be fighting to get into europe and playing catch up. good deal!!!

[Jcar92 66]

u dont get back form by playing some1 just for 2 games in 6 matches. moreover, in mata's case class triumphs forms. i mean lets take everton game for an example. we might not have scored in the 55 minutes but we created ample oppurtunities. we were in control of the ball and the game, but as soon as mata was taken off, everything went downhill.

and even though mata was the main culprit in conceding the winner to basel, i still feel we would not have been in that situation if he had started.

the point is - we play better with mata.

LOL, you say that Everton game alone is a example that we play better with him, with the argument that everything went down after his substitution... And then later want to say that Basel game is a example that we should start him????? And WTF? We would not be in that situatution? When he came on we were winning!

Anyway, i agree, i also think that Mata must be our playmaker and the man behind the striker(I would like to see Hazard, Mata, Willian and Lampard[Oscar DLP] changing position... but, meh, the coach is mourinho not me hahaha), Oscar is not ready to play there... for now(Because he is a DLP).

[didierforever 7,349]

Dude, the players are the same... So what? I already saw teams that didnt change anything in the starter eleven and still had completely different ways of play. I'm sure that even you can remeber of situations like that, this without mention that our players are getting older and may not be in the same state of mind and physic like before. The national team of brazil is one example of this. The team that was with Felipão is not that different from what Mano Menezes tried... And everyone saw the difference.

Main problem? For me is most like trying to put both together. And even if this is a problem, i still believe that is not what is making we lose... Let alone be one of our main problems.

the players are getting older and wiser, more experienced. hazard-22, oscar-21, mata-25, willian-25, schurlle-22, kdb-21, mikel-26, rambo-26 so on and so forth. i mean these players should be at the top of their physical prowess at this age otherwise there is something really wrong with our training and fitness staff.

we are playing a different way - accepted. but that is clearly not working. also we have been so hopelessly depended on mata for the last 2 years that we simply CAN NOT keep him on the bench and expect to play well. the style we played, the link-up play, the attack everythin was set up by juan. he was our heart and soul and you simply can not discard THAT. if u watched the last match, u could actually see how clueless our attack was. no one knew what their role was. for me oscar played too deep, hence their were times when lamps had to go ahead into the holes. but u could see it dint work and the same thing happened when we played against everton without mata too. hence the point is, should we simply continue to discard mata (because jose has already told that oscar will be his no.10) or include mata and then phase him out. for me the answer has to be the latter one.

and yes, it is one of our main problems. because the style of football we play with mata as no.10 is totally and completely different from what we play with oscar as no.10. it changes the total dynamics of the team.

[didierforever 7,349]

LOL, you say that Everton game alone is a example that we play better with him, with the argument that everything went down after his substitution... And then later want to say that Basel game is a example that we should start him????? And WTF? We would not be in that situatution? When he came on we were winning!

Anyway, i agree, i also think that Mata must be our playmaker and the man behind the striker(I would like to see Hazard, Mata, Willian and Lampard[Oscar DLP] changing position... but, meh, the coach is mourinho not me hahaha), Oscar is not ready to play there... for now(Because he is a DLP).

basel game was one of the most pathetic performances i have seen from chelsea. we had no penetration, we had no chance and the goal was one where the basel center-back simply switched off. we were lucky to be 1-0 up. salah could have put basel up twice in the first half itself. and hence i said we would not have been in that position. we would have been easily controlling the game like we always do with mata. that is what i meant to say.

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

better workrates and faster does not make them BETTER. mata scores goals and makes oppurtunities for the goals. something which neither willian nor schurlle have been able to do. as for jose's statement, taking off willian whose workrate is awesome and put in mata who is kept out due to his defensive frivolities, when we are 1-0 up, i dont think mata should be the first one to be blamed. it was a poor substitution.

so if mata starts fa and carling cup games, then atleast we ll win some trophies this season. while we would be losing to a team like BASEL at STAMFORD FUCKING BRIDGE (kindly tell me when was our last home defeat in europe, about 3 -4 years ago against united) and be fighting to get into europe and playing catch up. good deal!!!

I have no doubt in my mind that Mata and Mourinho worked on that during the international break. What happened during the game should never happen, and hopefully it wont happen again.

Creating and scoring goals is nice and all, but what does it matter if you leave the team wide open? What does it matter if you do not defend as a team? It may be good enough for Rafa but it isnt good enough for the style he is trying to make. We might as well be down a man when he doesnt have the ball.

[didierforever 7,349]

I have no doubt in my mind that Mata and Mourinho worked on that during the international break. What happened during the game should never happen, and hopefully it wont happen again.

Creating and scoring goals is nice and all, but what does it matter if you leave the team wide open? What does it matter if you do not defend as a team? It may be good enough for Rafa but it isnt good enough for the style he is trying to make. We might as well be down a man when he doesnt have the ball.

we are CHELSEA not everton. a 0-0 draw for us against say fulham would be as bad as 2-3 defeat. we are expected to win every game we play and how do u expect that to happen when

a) we dont have a prolific goal-scorer. wait scratch that, we dont have a goal-scorer itself, forget prolific

we are not playing our best creative midfielder

c) our most lethal weapon (eden hazard) plays about 50 times better with mata than without him.

d) with not scoring goals, we are inviting pressure, which lead to stupid mistakes like cech trying to force the play at 45 minutes just to get a counter going.

e) oscar playing does not guarantee a clean sheet, he is not that good defensively, but it does screw us up big time in the creativity.

also where is this notion of the team being WIDE OPEN coming from. mata played in almost every game we played last year. i dont remember us conceding 3-4 goals in every game, did we? infact we kept a clean sheet against a team like united at OT while mata scored the winner.

so tell me how is playing mata not viable. as i said before, HE IS STILL OUR MAIN MAN.

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

we are CHELSEA not everton. a 0-0 draw for us against say fulham would be as bad as 2-3 defeat. we are expected to win every game we play and how do u expect that to happen when

a) we dont have a prolific goal-scorer. wait scratch that, we dont have a goal-scorer itself, forget prolific

we are not playing our best creative midfielder

c) our most lethal weapon (eden hazard) plays about 50 times better with mata than without him.

d) with not scoring goals, we are inviting pressure, which lead to stupid mistakes like cech trying to force the play at 45 minutes just to get a counter going.

e) oscar playing does not guarantee a clean sheet, he is not that good defensively, but it does screw us up big time in the creativity.

so tell me how is playing mata not viable. as i said before, HE IS STILL OUR MAIN MAN.

As a team we dont have a main man. We are very much a squad in transition. Plenty new players, and a new manager to boot. We are weeks, maybe even months, removed from actually having a main man.

a) Fair point. We'll see how Eto'o settles.

b ) He has not adapted yet.

c) Perhaps, but he has played well enough so far. Still attracts 3 players at any given moment.

d) This is true, and this needs to be fixed. We dont need him doing that.

e) Nothing guarantees a clean sheet, it makes it a lot more probable though. It also keeps circulation flowing from the back to the attack as he is always available.

[Jcar92 66]

we are CHELSEA not everton. a 0-0 draw for us against say fulham would be as bad as 2-3 defeat. we are expected to win every game we play and how do u expect that to happen when

a) we dont have a prolific goal-scorer. wait scratch that, we dont have a goal-scorer itself, forget prolific

we are not playing our best creative midfielder

c) our most lethal weapon (eden hazard) plays about 50 times better with mata than without him.

d) with not scoring goals, we are inviting pressure, which lead to stupid mistakes like cech trying to force the play at 45 minutes just to get a counter going.

e) oscar playing does not guarantee a clean sheet, he is not that good defensively, but it does screw us up big time in the creativity.

so tell me how is playing mata not viable. as i said before, HE IS STILL OUR MAIN MAN.

Oscar is not that bad at orchestrating the play, and being creative... Its the other way around, he is good. Mata is better at it? He is(for now). But you are too caught in this matter that Mata is the only thing different from last year. We also have a different Manager... It is Mourinho now, and even with it, there is many things that can change it all. And you see... Everyone spoke bad of Mourinho for him not putting Casillas on the field, and even now, with other couch he still is out. We don't know what he see in the trainings and all.

[didierforever 7,349]

As a team we dont have a main man. We are very much a squad in transition. Plenty new players, and a new manager to boot. We are weeks, maybe even months, removed from actually having a main man.

a) Fair point. We'll see how Eto'o settles.

b ) He has not adapted yet.

c) Perhaps, but he has played well enough so far. Still attracts 3 players at any given moment.

d) This is true, and this needs to be fixed. We dont need him doing that.

e) Nothing guarantees a clean sheet, it makes it a lot more probable though. It also keeps circulation flowing from the back to the attack as he is always available.

we have been a squad in transition for 2 years now. we ALWAYS have a new manager and we will always have plenty of new players because we are chelsea. if we start giving these excuses we are never gonna win anything, ever.

also your point about the squad in transition makes my point even STRONGER. tell me how does it make any sense to drop your player of the year for 2 consecutive years, a player like mata who was our heart and sould for the last 2 years if we are in transition. WE NEED HIM.

ps - please dont say hazard has playes well enough so far. its a derogatory remark on that guy's talent to call his last 6 matches "well enough". we are looking here at one of the most talented players in the world and we want him to be in the league of CR and messi not adel taraabt.

[Jcar92 66]

I have no doubt in my mind that Mata and Mourinho worked on that during the international break. What happened during the game should never happen, and hopefully it wont happen again.

Creating and scoring goals is nice and all, but what does it matter if you leave the team wide open? What does it matter if you do not defend as a team? It may be good enough for Rafa but it isnt good enough for the style he is trying to make. We might as well be down a man when he doesnt have the ball.

"Creating and scoring goals is nice and all, but". Awww man, fuck this shit. Look at this... "He has the technique, he may be creative, be good... But fuck, he doesn't defend" We are talking about the KEY PLAYER. He says that oscar don't play at the side for him do not have the responsability to came back after fullbacks... People are wanting players that came back rather than the talented ones...

[Barbara 15,149]

WorkRateWorkRateWorkRate... For God's sake! People keep repeating it like it were the magical secret of the Beautiful Game. And they are playmakers! I would take talent over anything at any time. Brazil is having this fucking crisis for the lack of CAMs, problem that started with people preferring height over technique,

strength rather than creativite... And now this even in Europe. Ok defense is important, but not as much to give that much advantage to the key player of the midfield. Pep even played Bayern with schweinsteiger, THIAGO and Kross. THIAGO coming from behind dammit. THIAGO. Ok, we have a differnt team, other style and all, they may not play that way in dangerous matchs, but we have people here speaking about workrate over talent on the player that must orchestrate plays, do the rhythm of the game and hold possession. Like it were the most important thing. By this logic we wouldn't play Ronaldinho Gaucho(at his best) for his lack of pressing, he does not place well in our Team. LOL. Why can't we have one player to not be responsible for defense?

Again, as obvious by my avatar i like Oscar. But he is not absolute over Mata at CAM, he is not ready, at least for now and for me. Hell i even think that he shoudn't play as a no10 as i said before... For now i keep my idea that he is a DLP. Also, good to say that i'm not thinking that i'm the senior of truth and i may change my mind and believe in others truth's later.

For the brazilians users: Desculpa amigos, esse rage com a pressão deve ser por passar o tempo todo vendo o Tite fazer todos os jogadores, do Gil até o Pato, Guerrero, Douclas e Romarinho... Voltando até a linha de fundo a todo momento! PQP não aguento mais essa porra! hahahahaaa

cara, eu sou Flamenguista entao não vamos falar de porcaria

Anyway, I think the main point here is that Mata is having a poor season so far and if all of you that love him so much and want him to much in the team, then the fair thing to do is to leave Mourinho alone (what hasn't happened) when we lose matches like the Basel match because of him, then let's start the "must-recover-Mata:Chelsea's-main-goal-in-the-season" operation. But don't came say shit when we lose and blame Mourinho because Mata is a frigging liability now because not only he doesn't create anything for us - I can remember one key-pass that's worth mentioning in all minutes he played, one! Give me more and we'll keep adding to his count. But I mean really key-passes - he may be - depending on the match - a liability in the whole system because he's slow (and is even slower this season), small and weak which is really not suited for EPL, can't defend, can't tackle, doesn't press, doesn't have the best tempo setting around (nor the worse either) and people keep repeating that work-rate is the only thing Oscar is actually better.

Against facts there aren't arguments - that's a saying in Brazil. We finished frigging sixth in EPL with Mata and then 3rd - 14 pts behind United - with Mata. We conceded goals right and left because there's a deficiency. Should we improve our pivot 10x (and that's not with Oscar, sorry) and then we can afford all problems that come with Mata playing, well but we don't have that pivot now, so what do you want? He's amazing, I'm not denying that, still we weren't competitive with him like Bayern is with Robben or Ribery, like Dortmund was with Reus and Gotze, Pirlo bosses Juve's midfield for a decade now. I keep repeating it because nobody comes and proves me with facts I'm wrong, but what have Mata won for us? He has his contribution in our lucky UCL title, but he's not the best player, not the main key player for us winning it. Last season when it really mattered he disappeared - what are the UCL matches he won us so we could advance to the knockout stages? Later then we struggled against EPL sides. If Mata is this out-of-this-world player you guys keep saying then why did we struggle so much to be competitive? Is someone going to say the rest of our players are so bad that we couldn't do better? It's not only about scoring because one or another we scored in many key matches we lost or draw last season, but then we conceded! Those guys I've said above plus Iniesta, Xavi, Ozil and even di Maria and Sneijder [on his better days at Inter] solve matches for their teams, win them tough matches. They get the shit done when it matters the most. I'm not even talking about Ronaldo and Messi because that's not fair with anyone.

I said in my very post in the thread that without a doubt Mata is the best #10 - the overrating from Chelsea fans though is colossal. I have tons of Spanish friends, as I'm a Rafael Nadal fan and a Real Madrid. TONS and basically NONE of them rate Mata as half amazing as I see around here. He's the best #10, end of it. The day he plays the football some of you believe him to play we'll win trebles, he'll be Balon d'Or nomination material (he's not even close) and that will be without a frigging defensive contribution because that's not the entire point! Yes, he's deficient on that, but there are two things 1) that's not the only thing Oscar is better; 2) he's not the third best player in the world behind Cris/Messi and he's not even the guy I'd put behind Özil (who's younger than him and out-performed him for 5 years in a row) as the second AM in the world, CAM or not CAM because not all players have their best players playing as CAM. Actually we happen to be the only ones doing it. All other top players in the world have wingers, SS or false 9's being their main star. Which is obviously José's plan. Oscar isn't José's star. That's Eden Hazard - rightfully as I rate Hazard [despite his laziness/lack of motivation or slow building up to start the season on fire or even decent like most players].

If you guys don't realize that Oscar is there only because he's the perfect guy to prop Hazard - and that's Mourinho's plan, you're missing the big picture (which btw isn't to win against Fulham tomorrow or simply qualify to round of 16 in UCL and fight for the EPL for as long as we can. The big picture is building something we honestly don't have since José: an identity. We were fierce under Carlo, but honestly we weren't world wide known because of our style as Barça, RM, Dortmund and Bayern for example have been in the the last few years). He wants Hazard to be the next Robben/Iniesta/Xavi and if the kid is as special as some of us believe him to be, maybe even just a step down from Cristiano Ronaldo's level as the position and role Mourinho has for Eden is exactly the same. Oscar is a prop, the perfect prop and Mata has two ways ahead of him: help that happen and be the 2nd/3rd man in the AM along with the other two amigos, or a better winger will replace him.

I don't care about Mata's career, future club, chances in the NT or whatever (same way I don't care about Oscar's) because what comes first here is Chelsea and if any of you think that Mata with everything he showed in two weak seasons with us can bring us to the level of those teams (Barca, Bayern, Borussia, RM) you better wait sitting because otherwise you'll get tired too soon. He won't because he can't and what Mourinho is trying is to do it's to make that happen with the one guy in the team that has ceiling for that. That's not Oscar. That's Eden Hazard. He's making a few mistakes with Eden imo - giving him way too much confidence when he doesn't deserve it promptly - but hopefully he'll find the way to polish Eden. That said Mata is still a better #10, but he comes with a price...

edit: don't know if it was obvious but our "Wesley Sneidjer or Cris" won't be Mata or Oscar, but Hazard which in the Mou's perfect working engine will be the guy without any defensive responsibilities. To afford that the other two AM have to do theirs and cover for Eden.

[didierforever 7,349]

Oscar is not that bad at orchestrating the play, and being creative... Its the other way around, he is good. Mata is better at it? He is(for now). But you are too caught in this matter that Mata is the only thing different from last year. We also have a different Manager... It is Mourinho now, and even with it, there is many things that can change it all. And you see... Everyone spoke bad of Mourinho for him not putting Casillas on the field, and even now, with other couch he still is out. We don't know what he see in the trainings and all.

please dont compare the casillas situation to the mata situation. casillas' last good performance was .... i actually dont remember. he was pathetic and even adan was included for a game before lopez was bought.

on the other hand mata has been our best player for 2 years. has been our GO TO man every time we have found ourselves in a hole. has been our main orchestrator.

i totally understand your arguments. about mou coming in and implying his style of way and all, but the point is will it work. so far it has not, infact its backfired badly. and thats not the most worrying part. our performances without mata have been very very poor.

as for oscar, he is not on the mata level yet.

[Jcar92 66]

we have been a squad in transition for 2 years now. we ALWAYS have a new manager and we will always have plenty of new players because we are chelsea. if we start giving these excuses we are never gonna win anything, ever.

also your point about the squad in transition makes my point even STRONGER. tell me how does it make any sense to drop your player of the year for 2 consecutive years, a player like mata who was our heart and sould for the last 2 years if we are in transition. WE NEED HIM.

ps - please dont say hazard has playes well enough so far. its a derogatory remark on that guy's talent to call his last 6 matches "well enough". we are looking here at one of the most talented players in the world and we want him to be in the league of CR and messi not adel taraabt.

We are always in transition because the managers keep getting fired... Agree that has to play, but not as the main player, senior od the team. Hazard is not playing worst because of the lack of Mata at his side.

And i'm sorry to anyone that disagree... But i don't think that Hazard has the talent to be at Messi or C. Ronaldo class. He is a good player? Hell yes. But not at this class. Neymar may be the Man.

[Barbara 15,149]

true. because when mata played on the wings for us, we just won the CL and FA cup, so he is definitely not good enough.

tell one match he won for us in the UCL campaign. I mean the tough ones, not the easy ones. Tell how because of him we knocked out Barcelona and Bayern and I'll give him the credit. And don't come talk to me about a frigging corner. I want open play. Prove me how he won those matches for us, how he stepped up and solved the problem with his creativity. I promise I'll shut up. And as you're at this, also show me how he made Spain competitive in the CC final.

[didierforever 7,349]

We are always in transition because the managers keep getting fired... Agree that has to play, but not as the main player, senior od the team. Hazard is not playing worst because of the lack of Mata at his side.

And i'm sorry to anyone that disagree... But i don't think that Hazard has the talent to be at Messi or C. Ronaldo class. He is a good player? Hell yes. But not at this class. Neymar may be the Man.

hahahaha... now thats just a brazilian talking...

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

we have been a squad in transition for 2 years now. we ALWAYS have a new manager and we will always have plenty of new players because we are chelsea. if we start giving these excuses we are never gonna win anything, ever.

also your point about the squad in transition makes my point even STRONGER. tell me how does it make any sense to drop your player of the year for 2 consecutive years, a player like mata who was our heart and sould for the last 2 years if we are in transition. WE NEED HIM.

ps - please dont say hazard has playes well enough so far. its a derogatory remark on that guy's talent to call his last 6 matches "well enough". we are looking here at one of the most talented players in the world and we want him to be in the league of CR and messi not adel taraabt.

It makes sense when the manager flat out says he does not like the way we played the past 2 years

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

"Creating and scoring goals is nice and all, but". Awww man, fuck this shit. Look at this... "He has the technique, he may be creative, be good... But fuck, he doesn't defend" We are talking about the KEY PLAYER. He says that oscar don't play at the side for him do not have the responsability to came back after fullbacks... People are wanting players that came back rather than the talented ones...

We want talent and work ethic.