No.10 Role

[Rmpr 8,977]

My personal guess would be that we will see:

Hazard Mata Willian

Partly because Oscar has the long trip everyone has already mentioned. And he seems to be giving the form players a go. And coming off the bench and scoring in the last 15 mins is pretty good. And hazard did the same though i expect him to be back simply because he has fully recovered and i doubt Schurrle did enough to bench Hazard.

I wouldnt have a problem with that, but I think Schurrle would play exactly because he didnt do enough to bench Hazard.

The Schalke game is vital, so I believe Jose will want Oscar and Hazard fully rested...

[ChelseasMessiah 304]

Some very good points raised. I think Willian will finally reach peak physical condition within these two weeks at Cobham, I can't wait to see him given a run of games.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Personally I'd like to see something like KDB - Mata - Schurrle.

Rest Hazard, Oscar & Willian for the Schalke game. Possibly rest Ramires and Lampard too.

Is Torres back for the Cardiff game?

[Barbara 15,149]

Personally I'd like to see something like KDB - Mata - Schurrle.

Rest Hazard, Oscar & Willian for the Schalke game. Possibly rest Ramires and Lampard too.

Is Torres back for the Cardiff game?

his recovery was expected to be 3 weeks, so I guess he won't be ready for Cardiff but may be for Schalke.

Mou said at most he'll be available for City.

[Jccage 7]

From what I've seen - Oscar works better in the role under Mourinho, so I have to say him.

[Azpinator 2,325]

I said it once, and I'll repeat... comparing a 21yo Brazilian first season in Europe - in England nonetheless - with a guy well established there for two season is unfair.

we should compare their stats this season... (ignoring the age gap between them).

This is interesting, because I distinctly recall you saying that Mata's performances in the past were good because "we weren't competitive". So now let's say the club actually wants to be "competitive" and wants to challenge for titles, would you stick with the one with the 2-years of experience or just risk having a developing one (still ignoring the age gap)? It's a no-brainer for me.

[SeB 1,281]

Don't know if you'll be able to watch the video outside France but I was on TV discussing the matter of Oscar/Mata, on French TV show "The Specialists" on English Football, on Canal +. Start the video at 6mn:

http://www.canalplus.fr/c-sport/c-football/c-angleterre/pid3479-c-videos-premier-league.html?vid=949351

"Saddly" I was only able to do one short sequence on Mata/Oscar and not the second one on Chelsea's gameplan (4v3 in midfield to set up a wide forward's run)

[Johnny Kills 164]

From my club's #10, I like one that is a driving force behind the team's attack - a player that can control the tempo of a game with his ball retention, superb passing and vision. Oscar has yet to have a game for this club where you can say he's done that, opposed to Mata where he's done it countless times. I believe Mata creates chances that Oscar does not, which is why I believe points will be dropped while we wait for Oscar to grow as a player.

[SeB 1,281]

From my club's #10, I like one that is a driving force behind the team's attack - a player that can control the tempo of a game with his ball retention, superb passing and vision. Oscar has yet to have a game for this club where you can say he's done that, opposed to Mata where he's done it countless times. I believe Mata creates chances that Oscar does not, which is why I believe points will be dropped while we wait for Oscar to grow as a player.

Aren't 14 points lost from winning positions last season enough to prove that winning games isn't about scoring the first goal ?

Mata creates chances but contributes to inbalance the team otherwise. A genuine team player is the one who's able to work for the team and create goals. And it's hard to hit 20 goals/50 assists by doing the dual role, in case of Mata, he obviously did only once of the two.

I don't want to blame Mata who's not responsible of the way he was played for two seasons. But look at the WH away defeat last season which is a textbook example of what was our issue last season: we scored the first goal and weren't able to control WH's momentum, control in midfield afterwards

[Mufassir08 2,400]

Personally I'd like to see something like KDB - Mata - Schurrle.

Rest Hazard, Oscar & Willian for the Schalke game. Possibly rest Ramires and Lampard too.

Thats what I would like to see as well.

[Barbara 15,149]

This is interesting, because I distinctly recall you saying that Mata's performances in the past were good because "we weren't competitive". So now let's say the club actually wants to be "competitive" and wants to challenge for titles, would you stick with the one with the 2-years of experience or just risk having a developing one (still ignoring the age gap)? It's a no-brainer for me.

what does one have to do with the other?

does it surprise anyone that Oscar is having a better season than he did last season? I guess not because he's more settled, more adapted because of the huge difference between England and Brazil. So my point was comparing a guy struggling to adapt and a guy fully adapted is unfair. Now what does that have to do that with Mata being a liability in the systems we had in place in the last two years? I fail to understand it. He was imo. Chelsea's appalling results in EPL prove me that, the failure to quality to UCL knockout stage proves me that.

I said in one or two threads but I'll say it here with big letters and bold words.

In my opinion, assessment and prediction Oscar will have this season better stats than Mata had last season in EPL because I know he's capable of doing it.

And then maybe people will agree that a Brazilian adapting in English football will always have a sub par season in their first year in England because the leagues are basically the opposite of one another. I guess because they forgot how Ramires was in his first season with us...

And please come quote me in 7 months.

now I don't know if Mata will have better stats than he did last season because I'm not saying Oscar is or will be better than Mata. I"m saying that a fully adapted Oscar can do better than 12 goals and 12 assists. Mata may surpass himself as well, my point isn't comparing both players, just saying what Oscar is capable of doing. Actually I think he'll pass Mata's total goals in all competitions (20), although I don't think he will have more than 28 assists (the amount Mata had for all competitions). That's my assessment of Oscar's potential this season. It has nothing to do with how well or how bad Mata does right now.

as for the bold part, I'm all for the best player. This season so far Oscar has been the best player not only in general, but also in the matches he and Mata started. Why people feel the need to compare and choose between one or the other is beyond me, as it's obvious the best thing for Chelsea right now is starting both.... but well if I had to choose, to answer your question, the answer would be the best currently. That answer for me is a no-brainer, anything else doesn't make sense for me.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Aren't 14 points lost from winning positions last season enough to prove that winning games isn't about scoring the first goal ?

Mata creates chances but contributes to inbalance the team otherwise. A genuine team player is the one who's able to work for the team and create goals. And it's hard to hit 20 goals/50 assists by doing the dual role, in case of Mata, he obviously did only once of the two.

I don't want to blame Mata who's not responsible of the way he was played for two seasons. But look at the WH away defeat last season which is a textbook example of what was our issue last season: we scored the first goal and weren't able to control WH's momentum, control in midfield afterwards

That defeat was not mata's fault. It was the system of play that benitez likes.

Benitez used gerrad in that role for liverpool. If you remember, gerrard scored a lot of goals behind torres and was fantastic.

Benitez is using hamsik in that role for napoli. He has scored 6 goals already this season. Hamsik is enjoying what mata enjoyed last season.

Imagine if iniesta was told to stay beside messi and not go back, he'll double mata's assists, but barcelona will never keep as much possesion with that tactic, never.

Benitez made mata play just behind the striker, with no defensive duties which leaves the rest of the team defending deep in a 4-4-1-1 method.

We struggled against any team that used 3 people in the middle. The flaw was with this tactic, not mata.

But mourinho wants to change that with 3 in the middle instead of two. Who better than oscar at pressing opponents high? Not many. So it fit perfectly for him. Especially since he plays exactly the same role for brazil, its natural to oscar.

[Azpinator 2,325]

what does one have to do with the other?

does it surprise anyone that Oscar is having a better season than he did last season? I guess not because he's more settled, more adapted because of the huge difference between England and Brazil. So my point was comparing a guy struggling to adapt and a guy fully adapted is unfair. Now what does that have to do that with Mata being a liability in the systems we had in place in the last two years? I fail to understand it. He was imo. Chelsea's appalling results in EPL prove me that, the failure to quality to UCL knockout stage proves me that.

I said in one or two threads but I'll say it here with big letters and bold words.

In my opinion, assessment and prediction Oscar will have this season better stats than Mata had last season in EPL because I know he's capable of doing it.

And then maybe people will agree that a Brazilian adapting in English football will always have a sub par season in their first year in England because the leagues are basically the opposite of one another. I guess because they forgot how Ramires was in his first season with us...

And please come quote me in 7 months.

now I don't know if Mata will have better stats than he did last season because I'm not saying Oscar is or will be better than Mata. I"m saying that a fully adapted Oscar can do better than 12 goals and 12 assists. Mata may surpass himself as well, my point isn't comparing both players, just saying what Oscar is capable of doing. Actually I think he'll pass Mata's total goals in all competitions (20), although I don't think he will have more than 28 assists (the amount Mata had for all competitions). That's my assessment of Oscar's potential this season. It has nothing to do with how well or how bad Mata does right now.

as for the bold part, I'm all for the best player. This season so far Oscar has been the best player not only in general, but also in the matches he and Mata started. Why people feel the need to compare and choose between one or the other is beyond me, as it's obvious the best thing for Chelsea right now is starting both.... but well if I had to choose, to answer your question, the answer would be the best currently. That answer for me is a no-brainer, anything else doesn't make sense for me.

They have to do with each other because I was talking about choosing your best options in each position in order to keep winning and challenge for titles. One of those positions is the No. 10 and Mata has a lot of experience there while Oscar is still learning so it makes sense to choose experience more often.

Oscar still has some work to do to perform like a CAM should, so far in the CAM position he scored (4) with (0) assists in 7 appearances while being given more than enough time to perform in each game, and a CAM must have assists more than 0 in 7 games, a CAM must provide more final passes to the striker(s) and do less shooting around. His only assist came from being in the RM position against Steaua. He doesn't have enough vision to create chances and he tends to shoot more. He can do just fine while playing with the experienced Mata so it's for the best . And I know he scored without Mata around but we looked more cohesive when he did play with him. So playing as a team is vital to win games more comfortably so that the team can compete in different competitions.

I still don't know where all the "adapting" "struggling" came from... Did he say that recently? Did Jose say that? He seems perfectly fine to me. I see him progressing not struggling to adapt.

This season Mata has better passing accuracy and better key passes and that makes him more suitable for the CAM role. While Oscar has better dribbles and shots which makes him more suitable for the RM role. Use your best options in the squad and you're good to go.

About the liability part: I know you love Oscar a lot but I think it's unnecessary to be that harsh on Mata. If Mata was really a liability in our system I don't think we would have won any of our last 3 titles. First season he didn't play CAM a lot, and dropping to 6th place in the league had many reasons, mainly it was AVB's new offensive tactics that cost us many games, not a single player. Second season he did play CAM. We finished 3rd in the PL which isn't bad, I believe we didn't qualify to the KO stages of the UCL because of real liabilities like Bertrand who cost us 2 Shakhtar goals by not being able to contain Srna, and because of our biggest weakness which was the CF, we couldn't find someone strong enough to be up against Juve defenders. Mata did great in both competitions. Give me evidence that he didn't if you're so sure because it blows my mind that you blame our whole failures in the last 2 seasons on a single player when in fact we had several other issues going on.

And I assume the topic has to do with comparing them to one another because the topic title says it. It's about who you think is the better CAM not (who's having / will have) the better season overall.

[Barbara 15,149]

They have to do with each other because I was talking about choosing your best options in each position in order to keep winning and challenge for titles. One of those positions is the No. 10 and Mata has a lot of experience there while Oscar is still learning so it makes sense to choose experience more often.

Oscar still has some work to do to perform like a CAM should, so far in the CAM position he scored (4) with (0) assists in 7 appearances while being given more than enough time to perform in each game, and a CAM must have assists more than 0 in 7 games, a CAM must provide more final passes to the striker(s) and do less shooting around. His only assist came from being in the RM position against Steaua. He doesn't have enough vision to create chances and he tends to shoot more. He can do just fine while playing with the experienced Mata so it's for the best . And I know he scored without Mata around but we looked more cohesive when he did play with him. So playing as a team is vital to win games more comfortably so that the team can compete in different competitions.

I still don't know where all the "adapting" "struggling" came from... Did he say that recently? Did Jose say that? He seems perfectly fine to me. I see him progressing not struggling to adapt.

This season Mata has better passing accuracy and better key passes and that makes him more suitable for the CAM role. While Oscar has better dribbles and shots which makes him more suitable for the RM role. Use your best options in the squad and you're good to go.

About the liability part: I know you love Oscar a lot but I think it's unnecessary to be that harsh on Mata. If Mata was really a liability in our system I don't think we would have won any of our last 3 titles. First season he didn't play CAM a lot, and dropping to 6th place in the league had many reasons, mainly it was AVB's new offensive tactics that cost us many games, not a single player. Second season he did play CAM. We finished 3rd in the PL which isn't bad, I believe we didn't qualify to the KO stages of the UCL because of real liabilities like Bertrand who cost us 2 Shakhtar goals by not being able to contain Srna, and because of our biggest weakness which was the CF, we couldn't find someone strong enough to be up against Juve defenders. Mata did great in both competitions. Give me evidence that he didn't if you're so sure because it blows my mind that you blame our whole failures in the last 2 seasons on a single player when in fact we had several other issues going on.

And I assume the topic has to do with comparing them to one another because of the topic title says it. It's about who do you think is the better CAM not (who's having / will have) the better season overall.

but I didn't quote you, did I?

I quoted Torontochelsea and I only stated two things: 1) it's unfair to compare their stats because Oscar was struggling last season (I never said he's struggling this season because he clearly isn't) to adapt to the league. 2) I also added a comment saying that while Mata is always going to be more creative than Oscar it doesn't mean Oscar isn't creative. He is, he just isn't (or will ever be) as creative as Mata.

I was harsh on Mata on this thread not because of Oscar. If anything I was defending Mourinho... Mata was a liability because he doesn't pay off as Cris or Messi do. Those are the only guys I can see being totally exempt from defensive responsibilities without exposing the team because the crazy amount of goals they score actually makes up for the liability they offer defensively. I was defending Mourinho's instance that Mata won't have a place at the team if he doesn't contribute with work-rate. I think the same about any other player.

But Mata worked around what Mourinho asked him to do and ever since I've been supporting him to be in the team. I was completely against Oscar in the LW, but he's made some improvement there this season and I confess I wasn't expecting that. I said so many times in this thread that if Mourinho chose Mata to be the CAM Oscar should be benched and not moved to the LW or the pivot, but everyone ignored it or thought I was lying because you keep thinking I'm saying Mourinho should play Oscar when I haven't said that once. I did say many times the best should play and right now Oscar may be the best overall, but who knows who will be next match?

I even said more than once in my posts that although Oscar is in his best moment since arriving at Chelsea he fades in comparison to Mata in his best days, but nobody quotes me on that... I said too many times Mata is the best CAM and the only problem is that he used to offer some liability, but people love to ignore that. Also this thread gives me a headache as well as this discussion.

I don't think Mata is the only reason we were never competitive in the last two seasons unless when the most experienced guys drew their blood defending and Cech operated a few miracles. I think he was part of the reason and that in the systems in have in place he was a liability. It's not even his fault, it's the manager's.

btw Oscar has 1 assist this season on CL and he did create chances to others... can we blame him if they didn't score (I guess it was even him who assisted Mata and he didn't score, but I'm not sure)

[Azpinator 2,325]

but I didn't quote you, did I?

I quoted Torontochelsea and I only stated two things: 1) it's unfair to compare their stats because Oscar was struggling last season (I never said he's struggling this season because he clearly isn't) to adapt to the league. 2) I also added a comment saying that while Mata is always going to be more creative than Oscar it doesn't mean Oscar isn't creative. He is, he just isn't (or will ever be) as creative as Mata.

I was harsh on Mata on this thread not because of Oscar. If anything I was defending Mourinho... Mata was a liability because he doesn't pay off as Cris or Messi do. Those are the only guys I can see being totally exempt from defensive responsibilities without exposing the team because the crazy amount of goals they score actually makes up for the liability they offer defensively. I was defending Mourinho's instance that Mata won't have a place at the team if he doesn't contribute with work-rate. I think the same about any other player.

But Mata worked around what Mourinho asked him to do and ever since I've been supporting him to be in the team. I was completely against Oscar in the LW, but he's made some improvement there this season and I confess I wasn't expecting that. I said so many times in this thread that if Mourinho chose Mata to be the CAM Oscar should be benched and not moved to the LW or the pivot, but everyone ignored it or thought I was lying because you keep thinking I'm saying Mourinho should play Oscar when I haven't said that once. I did say many times the best should play and right now Oscar may be the best overall, but who knows who will be next match?

I even said more than once in my posts that although Oscar is in his best moment since arriving at Chelsea he fades in comparison to Mata in his best days, but nobody quotes me on that... I said too many times Mata is the best CAM and the only problem is that he used to offer some liability, but people love to ignore that. Also this thread gives me a headache as well as this discussion.

I don't think Mata is the only reason we were never competitive in the last two seasons unless when the most experienced guys drew their blood defending and Cech operated a few miracles. I think he was part of the reason and that in the systems in have in place he was a liability. It's not even his fault, it's the manager's.

btw Oscar has 1 assist this season on CL and he did create chances to others... can we blame him if they didn't score (I guess it was even him who assisted Mata and he didn't score, but I'm not sure)

This doesn't have to be too personal, I have nothing to do with others ignoring some of your points - that's their problem, I just wanted to join the debate because you're someone I thought I'd be comfortable debating with. I didn't say you have nothing good to say about Mata, I just didn't like how you were blaming him for past failures of a team.

Okay, glad you cleared the "struggling" part up, but it's also unfair to compare them this season when Mata was coming back from an injury in the beginning, and yet Mata's passing stats are still better.

Still no evidence from you that Mata was a liability, sorry I must disagree on that. Having Cristiano and Messi as examples didn't make sense to me, we're not a 1-player club.

About the Oscar assist, I actually mentioned it and ironically you missed it. Didn't edit or anything.

Cheers!

[Barbara 15,149]

This doesn't have to be too personal, I have nothing to do with others ignoring some of your points - that's their problem, I just wanted to join the debate because you're someone I thought I'd be comfortable debating with. I didn't say you have nothing good to say about Mata, I just didn't like how you were blaming him for past failures of a team.

Okay, glad you cleared the "struggling" part up, but it's also unfair to compare them this season when Mata was coming back from an injury in the beginning, and yet Mata's passing stats are still better.

Still no evidence from you that Mata was a liability, sorry I must disagree on that. Having Cristiano and Messi as examples didn't make sense to me, we're not a 1-player club.

About the Oscar assist, I actually mentioned it and ironically you missed it. Didn't edit or anything.

Cheers!

to be honest I only answered because it's you. Anyone else I wouldn't have bothered.

As for proving Mata was one of the liabilities, I would have to scout last season's matches to show, and honestly, it isn't that important. We can agree to disagree. We offered way too much space for oppositions when our pivot wasn't that great to start with, so having a player with no defensive responsibilities in the middle just made it worse.

I really missed the Oscar one assist comment though.

I do agree with you it's not fair comparing Mata's stats when he wasn't playing enough. Touché

Cheers.

[meetdoscar 335]

They have to do with each other because I was talking about choosing your best options in each position in order to keep winning and challenge for titles. One of those positions is the No. 10 and Mata has a lot of experience there while Oscar is still learning so it makes sense to choose experience more often.

Oscar still has some work to do to perform like a CAM should, so far in the CAM position he scored (4) with (0) assists in 7 appearances while being given more than enough time to perform in each game, and a CAM must have assists more than 0 in 7 games, a CAM must provide more final passes to the striker(s) and do less shooting around. His only assist came from being in the RM position against Steaua. He doesn't have enough vision to create chances and he tends to shoot more. He can do just fine while playing with the experienced Mata so it's for the best . And I know he scored without Mata around but we looked more cohesive when he did play with him. So playing as a team is vital to win games more comfortably so that the team can compete in different competitions.

I still don't know where all the "adapting" "struggling" came from... Did he say that recently? Did Jose say that? He seems perfectly fine to me. I see him progressing not struggling to adapt.

This season Mata has better passing accuracy and better key passes and that makes him more suitable for the CAM role. While Oscar has better dribbles and shots which makes him more suitable for the RM role. Use your best options in the squad and you're good to go.

About the liability part: I know you love Oscar a lot but I think it's unnecessary to be that harsh on Mata. If Mata was really a liability in our system I don't think we would have won any of our last 3 titles. First season he didn't play CAM a lot, and dropping to 6th place in the league had many reasons, mainly it was AVB's new offensive tactics that cost us many games, not a single player. Second season he did play CAM. We finished 3rd in the PL which isn't bad, I believe we didn't qualify to the KO stages of the UCL because of real liabilities like Bertrand who cost us 2 Shakhtar goals by not being able to contain Srna, and because of our biggest weakness which was the CF, we couldn't find someone strong enough to be up against Juve defenders. Mata did great in both competitions. Give me evidence that he didn't if you're so sure because it blows my mind that you blame our whole failures in the last 2 seasons on a single player when in fact we had several other issues going on.

And I assume the topic has to do with comparing them to one another because the topic title says it. It's about who you think is the better CAM not (who's having / will have) the better season overall.

Mata had a better stat last season(chances created) than zidane or iniesta probably ever had in one single season, does that make him a better CAM than Zidane or iniesta?

[Dion 2,476]

Don't know if you'll be able to watch the video outside France but I was on TV discussing the matter of Oscar/Mata, on French TV show "The Specialists" on English Football, on Canal +. Start the video at 6mn:

http://www.canalplus.fr/c-sport/c-football/c-angleterre/pid3479-c-videos-premier-league.html?vid=949351

"Saddly" I was only able to do one short sequence on Mata/Oscar and not the second one on Chelsea's gameplan (4v3 in midfield to set up a wide forward's run)

The video isn't available for Brazil :\