Oscar

[The Skipper 20,593]

Yes things he is good at and got better! Why is that not enough? (in my opinion he's gotten better at seeing passes too)

What is this fascination with being world class? You expect in the 2/3 years that we've had Oscar(who was bought young) under contract for his net worth to double if not triple? He wasn't purchased because he had world class potential! He was bought because he filled a tactical need in the squad. In what world can you get a world class player for under 20M???

Maybe the problem is you guys have set the bar much too high and can't appreciate the fact we have a tactically astute player who scores goals, assists, tackles, man marks and works extremely hard all for the low price of 19m....

Not saying he can't get better but man you guys are way off in terms of what the expected return should be.

Where are you getting £19m from? Sky Sports have him quoted at £25m. Is it that unrealistic for anyone to expect great things from Oscar since we paid £25m (£25m for a 20 year old is a lot!) for him?

[Muzchap 8,966]

Lol always Oscar's fault

We play better when he's in the team - end of story

As others have said - our whole team has been shit for a while, but that's all Oscars fault.

It was Willian, now it's Oscar

When are you going to realise that the probability of getting 11 in form players to play for 90 minutes is like winning the lottery.

We have to ensure that the team wins, regardless of who's in or out of form. We are doing that!

Osc will be fine - Fabregas is the ideal mentor for him and will definitely help him progress.

The pressure is on now - we need to finish with silverware - this season will be the most defining season for the team, they can finally establish themselves as 'Winners' and that's an important step in any players career.

[Muzchap 8,966]

Where are you getting £19m from? Sky Sports have him quoted at £25m. Is it that unrealistic for anyone to expect great things from Oscar since we paid £25m (£25m for a 20 year old is a lot!) for him?

Journalists don't seem to understand currency differences they just put whatever suits them

[The Skipper 20,593]

I'm not going to ignore because I use(d) to have a lot of pleasure learning your always levelheaded and insightful opinions, I've learned many things with your thoughtful and deep posts about players, the sport, tactics. You told someone to 'shut up' the other day because you disagreed with them (or them with you), you got more aggressive towards people's opinion, you treat some opinions with some disdain, as if you're the only one right. Sorry, Thomas, but you didn't use to make those things and I'm not sure one should be proud of them. Not to say the moaning seems contagious in this forum...

You used to be very supportive of a lot of things that now you're being the opposite. It seems like you ran out of patience - either with the club, the manager or the forum itself, it's hard to tell. But that's the feeling that you lost your patience and now you're acting in a way I haven't ever seen before.

Yes, it was personal, but it wasn't an attack - there are many people here I don't care at all, but you I do and maybe you don't realize those things, many times we don't realize our own changes. You used a bad day as an excuse to telling someone to shut up, but you've been more aggressive in your answers and disdaining people's opinion in a way you didn't for a while now, it wasn't a complete isolated episode, And believe me, that has nothing to do with your opinion on Oscar.

Now if you and others think this is normal... well, I liked it better when you thought it wasn't, but it's your prerogative to think so.

I only said it because I care and because I used to have a great time reading your analysis and opinions. If I didn't care about you and your posts, I'd ignore it. Actually you're one of the few people I look forward to reading what you have to say at all instances. We've disagreed many times before, but something isn't the same anymore, maybe it's just my perception, but well, maybe it's not.

I'm sorry you feel that way Barb but honestly don't think you would be saying this if I was still in Oscar's corner, aggressively defending him.

[didierforever 7,349]

All things he was pretty good at already. The attributes we were hoping that he'd improve on (creativity, passing/vision, consistency) have not whatsoever over the last three years. Things he really needed to to become a bonafide world class player.

Even those attributes you've mentioned - he isn't world class in any of them.

that list included composure. i am actually suprised that someone thinks oscar's composure has improved since his passing under pressure has seemed to be worsened.

[The Skipper 20,593]

Journalists don't seem to understand currency differences they just put whatever suits them

It's not just Sky Sports though, BBC and The Guardian have him down at £25m as well.

25m euros in 2012 was over £20m as well I think, around £21m.

[The Skipper 20,593]

The thing is though skipper, every one of those arguments are infinitely more convincing that anything you or others criticizing Oscar have presented.

You say that he hasn't improved much in 3 years, that he won't ever be better than he is now, and that his general play isn't good enough for the standards of this club but whether you choose to accept it or not, the numbers do show a clear progression in terms of creativity so he has improved significantly in this aspect. Saying that he hasn't made any great strides in his development is simply false. Maybe that improvement isn't good enough for your standards, but regardless it's still a significant progression from his first season here.

Naturally, his creative stats are going to look better as he's moved into the middle full time now rather than being out on the right, but to me those stats are out of context and they don't prove he's improved in that aspect of his game at all. Most of his assists this season have been very, very basic.

You then argue that he won't ever be better than he is now. That isn't an argument. That's a hunch. A hunch that could be wrong or that could be right. Either way, it's inconsequential. Di Maria went from a frustrating and inconsistent player one year to being voted in the world XI and Argentina POTY above Messi. It's not such an inconceivable idea that Oscar can still improve and develop into an elite player.

That I won't disagree with, it is a hunch indeed. As I've said before, I would be more than happy for Oscar to prove me wrong and for him to go on and truly establish himself as a quality player but from what I've seen so far, I sincerely doubt that will be the case. You can give me the example of Di Maria, I can give you the example of Mikel who fully stagnated as a player. It can certainly go both ways.

On the subject of his general play, that's a valid argument. But you and others on here act like his general play has been poor all season. That isn't true though. If you scan old comments on this thread starting from August, there were hardly any complaints about Oscar's passing for much of the first half of the season. It wasn't until Spurs away then Newcastle at home that consistent complaints of his sloppy passing began emerging. His general play has been dire recently, but it hasn't been a season long occurrence. Btw, since that game against Newcastle at the Bridge, Oscar has since played 90 mins against Swansea, Bradford, Liverpool, City and then 70 mins against Villa. He's played a lot of games in a short period so it's not out of the realm of possibility that he could be exhausted.

It's true that he had a good start to the season but I personally started to have question marks on whether he truly has it in him to become a world class player around that time, even though he was performing - I made those clear a few weeks ago before his recent slump, and obviously his recent slump, which is very reminiscent of the one he had last season, is sort of reiterating my point more strongly. I'll still stand by it until I see different. I do agree that he most definitely is exhausted right now so his strengths (pressing, tactical awareness) are subdued even further.

Also, when criticizing Oscar's general play, people fail to realize or note that the team's passing overall has been turgid for a few months now. Matic has been misplacing one too many passes. Cesc has had his share of sloppy games. Even Hazard's general play has dropped significantly when a few months ago, he was unplayable. My point is that, I think you're putting a lot of weight into Oscar's recent performances but that doesn't give an accurate reflection of the way he's performed all season. You're only saying that Willian will do better in that role because he's in form now but Willian hasn't been performing the way he is now all season long.

I agree we've seen sloppy passes from everyone but it's never been Oscar's strength and he's misplacing even the most simple passes on a regular basis now. He's terribly off form at the moment so naturally, when a player who can do exactly what he can is in good form, I'd definitely prefer to see that player given a shot (Willian). Willian has never been given an extended go at the number 10 position either, which many have said is his best position. Oscar's role in the team can easily be replaced by him.

I understand Willian hasn't been amazing this season but then again, he hasn't had a chance to show what he's got in his best position for us yet. If Oscar is on form then I'd say it's different and that there is a lot less in between them but as it stands right now, our strongest team IMO would include Willian in the middle.

I think you're an awesome poster and pretty much the sweetest member on here, but I think you've made up your mind about Oscar and you're using a blip of poor performances as justification.

Thanks Dee, I do appreciate that. You could say I am partly using his blip in form as justification, I can't say I'm not, but his blips in form are a regularity, so I do believe that I can use this to enhance my argument, yes.

A month or so of good football at the start of the season from Oscar isn't enough for me not to disregard his current bad form when it's a regular thing.

PS:

Sorry for the spelling mistakes if there are any. Sort of rushed this.

[Barbara 15,149]

I'm sorry you feel that way Barb but honestly don't think you would be saying this if I was still in Oscar's corner, aggressively defending him.

Actually the shut up episode wasn't even in this thread... as I said maybe it's a wrong perception. We've disagreed many times before, it has nothing to do with that. If you feel nothing changed, you know yourself better than I do. I would be saying the same if those posts were in Mikel's, Willian's or Cahill's threads

[lionsden 4,689]

Where are you getting £19m from? Sky Sports have him quoted at £25m. Is it that unrealistic for anyone to expect great things from Oscar since we paid £25m (£25m for a 20 year old is a lot!) for him?

Forget the price. Every chelsea player especially the starters are expected to perform to a certain standard and should be scrutinized for poor/inconsistent performances like at every other major clubs in Europe. We are a top club who cannot afford to have passengers in the starting 11 and that's the bottomline. Age and transfer fee is irrelevant.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Where are you getting £19m from? Sky Sports have him quoted at £25m. Is it that unrealistic for anyone to expect great things from Oscar since we paid £25m (£25m for a 20 year old is a lot!) for him?

http://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2014/10/16/6968855/chelsea-ffp-database

His amortized fee is 5.9M (Transfer fee and salary broken down for the duration of the contract, he signed a 5yr deal)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_%28footballer,_born_1991%29

Wiki claims 19.35m based on the Internacional financial statement for that year.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Forget the price. Every chelsea player especially the starters are expected to perform to a certain standard and should be scrutinized for poor/inconsistent performances like at every other major clubs in Europe. We are a top club who cannot afford to have passengers in the starting 11 and that's the bottomline. Age and transfer fee is irrelevant.

HILARITY!

If Jose thought Oscar was poor he'd sell him. If Jose thought Oscar was poor he wouldn't have sold DeBruyne and Mata...

I don't know... Jose seems to know best.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

exactly, coutinho is just a flashy player but in reality isnt even close to Oscar.

Honestly, if Coutinho is the best name the peanut gallery can come up with as a replacement we should move on from this topic because clearly they have no clue. Coutinho..hahaha flavor of the month once every 2 years! LOL

[lionsden 4,689]

HILARITY!

If Jose thought Oscar was poor he'd sell him. If Jose thought Oscar was poor he wouldn't have sold DeBruyne and Mata...

I don't know... Jose seems to know best.

every manager is biased and capable of making bad judgment calls and jose is no exception. Moreover no one said Oscar is a poor player just that he is too inconsistent and should have to earn his place as a starter just like at every other top club. inconsistent is not the same as poor atleast the last time I checked the definitions in the dictionary.

[lionsden 4,689]

exactly, coutinho is just a flashy player but in reality isnt even close to Oscar.

Let's see last season's comparison.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

The pass completion rate means very little depending on the type of passes made. Oscar has a higher amount of passes in total, but fewer key passes which tells you that he does a greater amount of safe passes than Firmino does.

The whole point of all the individual stats I showed before was to create a profile for the players, not to belittle Oscar or make him appear worthless. Quite the contrary, the stats show a unique player who performs relatively well in his tasks which include defensive responsibilities.

However, the conclusion from the stats were that Firmino actually performs quite a bit better than Oscar on the defensive side. If we bought him, we would not lose that balance that Oscar gives. We would in addition to that also get a player who performs more key passes, and who is one of Europe's best dribblers.

This led me to decide that in my opinion, Firmino is the only reasonable player we can buy that retain the tactics of the 10 role that we have today, while also being an upgrade. Buying someone like Isco would mean we have to change the role completely, and I dont see Mourinho doing that just yet.

The only drawback of RF is his pace, but then again Oscar isnt exactly lightning quick himself. I believe the slight loss in speed would be compensated for in all the other areas where I believe Firmino to be better. He is in my opinion a more direct, alert, creative and technical player than Oscar, and the statistics do support the case, as do his performance in the team.

Also worth adding is that Firmino is the main man in Hoffenheim, he carries primarily offensive responsibilities there, which makes his defensive stats all the more impressive.

Ummm... WHAT??? So you want a guy who attempts difficult passes but rarely connects on them and gives up possession at an alarming rate as our no.10???? hahahaha Dude... We are a possession based team who also play on the counter, what good is a CAM if he tries all these difficult passes and never connects them?

You, Skipper and Lionsden are just exposing yourselves mightily with these poorly constructed arguments. First you guys say you don't want Oscar because he's not good enough and attacks break down when its at his feet, that his decision making is poor. Then to counter that buy selecting a guy who is a poor passer, very slow and an even worse decision maker than Oscar when playing in a league that is way slower??? (BTW that's why DeBruyne is excelling the league fits his pace)

Brother, you do understand that the Premier is played at a break neck speed right? If you actually believe Firmino is a better option in the 10 than Oscar I can't really argue with you but I will say this, 73% pass completion rate is PALTRY and if you think Chelsea are supposed to be a top 5 team in the world having a 10 who can't complete 80% of his passes is hardly even premier league status....

Here are a few names from the premier league who complete 73% of their passes none of them play for top clubs....

Phil Bardsley 73.4

Paul Konchesky 73.3

Danny Ings 73

Joey Barton 73

Leonardo Ulloa 73

Aaron Cresswell 72.9

To name a few... I somehow doubt our board and Jose agree with you on this.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Let's see last season's comparison.

So even last year he bested Coutinho? Great!

[lionsden 4,689]

So even last year he bested Coutinho? Great!

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2013/2014/oscar/126/64/3129/0/p|premier_league/2013/2014/philippe_coutinho/126/64/2673/0/p#total_score/pass_completion/assists/chances_created/goals_scored/key_passes#total

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-matrix#premier_league/2013/2014/oscar/126/64/3129/0/p|premier_league/2013/2014/philippe_coutinho/126/64/2673/0/p#total_score/pass_completion/assists/chances_created/goals_scored/key_passes#total

EVEN BETTER!

Clearly Oscar has improved this season!