Politics & Stuff

[lucio 5,418]

we are mostly selfish, but one of the few animals that has to possibility not to be, other examples are mainly insects

[KevinAshburner 1,270]

watch these 2 videos in the order I posted them in and then you will know the next 9/11 event version 2.0

if you don't watch these 2 videos. you will regret it and you will not be able to handle this next 9/11 event.

 

TEMPTATIONS™ - Keep them busy
video length - 1:16

 

911 COMING AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
video length - 32:43

 

[Spike 12,049]

  On 20/11/2016 at 20:27, CHOULO19 said:

People. Are. NOT. Always. Selfish.

Fuck that idiotic, cynical, post-capitalism, consumerist-apologistic view of humanity!  

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Don't deny self-preservation.

[kmk108 1,186]

  On 20/11/2016 at 23:39, Spike said:

Don't deny self-preservation.

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Self-preservation doesn't come at the cost of being selfish. I think it's possible to both look out for your interests and for the interests of others. It doesn't always work at the same time, but it's hard to categorize a whole species as one or the other. 

[Spike 12,049]

  On 21/11/2016 at 04:13, kmk108 said:

Self-preservation doesn't come at the cost of being selfish. I think it's possible to both look out for your interests and for the interests of others. It doesn't always work at the same time, but it's hard to categorize a whole species as one or the other. 

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The self is everything, it motivates altruism, family, love, hate, greed, envy, joy, rejection, and acceptance. Without selfishness there would be no charity.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 20/11/2016 at 23:39, Spike said:

Don't deny self-preservation.

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Don't deny that we have evolved to live as part of communities, that we are programmed to prioritize the common good, that altruism is built into our morality, that what sets us apart as a species more than anything is a capacity for compassion and empathy for much more than just fellow humans, and most importantly that millions of ordinary people around the world commit incredible acts of selflessness every single day!

That's not to say that humans don't have selfish tendencies, of course they do. But human brains are a mix of all sort of different and often contradicting motives. But what you take as a given, that the prevailing tendency in humans is selfishness, is not only easily disproved by simply looking at the overall trajectory of human societies it is also a belief that only started to be wide-spread post capitalism** and even 200 years would have been considered ridiculous.

Sorry but I'm fed up with people using that shitty argument to try to justify targeting the weakest and most vulnerable among us and all sort of acts and positions that we ALL realize go against our shared moral codes.

 

 

**In fact, even if you read Adam Smith (which no body actually does, especially capitalists) his "invisible hand" is an argument of why modern day international corporations would not be allowed in a free market because he thought that corporations would decide against being that selfish; undoubtedly a stupid argument since corporations are not humans (despite what US law says), but it does show what sort of mind frame he had.

[Fulham Broadway 17,091]

@CHOULO19 yeah that's true re Adam Smiths 'Wealth of Nations', the capitalists bible. They ignore the fact Smith was dead against unfettered capitalism.

[Spike 12,049]

  On 21/11/2016 at 12:32, CHOULO19 said:

Don't deny that we have evolved to live as part of communities, that we are programmed to prioritize the common good, that altruism is built into our morality, that what sets us apart as a species more than anything is a capacity for compassion and empathy for much more than just fellow humans, and most importantly that millions of ordinary people around the world commit incredible acts of selflessness every single day!

That's not to say that humans don't have selfish tendencies, of course they do. But human brains are a mix of all sort of different and often contradicting motives. But what you take as a given, that the prevailing tendency in humans is selfishness, is not only easily disproved by simply looking at the overall trajectory of human societies it is also a belief that only started to be wide-spread post capitalism** and even 200 years would have been considered ridiculous.

Sorry but I'm fed up with people using that shitty argument to try to justify targeting the weakest and most vulnerable among us and all sort of acts and positions that we ALL realize go against our shared moral codes.

 

 

**In fact, even if you read Adam Smith (which no body actually does, especially capitalists) his "invisible hand" is an argument of why modern day international corporations would not be allowed in a free market because he thought that corporations would decide against being that selfish; undoubtedly a stupid argument since corporations are not humans (despite what US law says), but it does show what sort of mind frame he had.

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Looks like you didn't read my second post as we have different definitions of selfishness and what constitutes the 'self'. Mainly because I didn't state any of the points you are refuting and are arguing against another person's argument. To start with, I said that 'humans are selfish in nature', not that selfishness is the only nature of humans, just because I didn't state that humans have altruism by nature doesn't mean I stated that they do not. Absence doesn't equate truth. You filled in the gaps yourself. 

[kmk108 1,186]

  On 21/11/2016 at 04:22, Spike said:

The self is everything, it motivates altruism, family, love, hate, greed, envy, joy, rejection, and acceptance. Without selfishness there would be no charity.

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  On 21/11/2016 at 18:27, Spike said:

Looks like you didn't read my second post as we have different definitions of selfishness and what constitutes the 'self'. Mainly because I didn't state any of the points you are refuting and are arguing against another person's argument.

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You must have a different definition of "selfish" then.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish

1:  concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself :  seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others

2:  arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>

 

What I think you're defining selfishness as is putting your wellbeing and interests above that of others, which all humans do. But that doesn't always come at the cost of not having regard for others, which is something that I've always understood selfishness to have. 

[Spike 12,049]

  On 21/11/2016 at 18:42, kmk108 said:

 

You must have a different definition of "selfish" then.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/selfish

1:  concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself :  seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others

2:  arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others <a selfish act>

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In my book selfishness extends to family or group. It is selfish to put the needs of your family above others. Ergo the human nature of ensuring a legacy of family is selfish by default.

[Spike 12,049]

Mainly because I believe one's family is an extension of the self, no it is an integral part of it. Of course the nurturing of family against neglecting family are two type of selfishness, one is an acceptance of the human nature of nurture versus the ego prioritising itself for other reasons.

[kmk108 1,186]

  On 21/11/2016 at 18:46, Spike said:

In my book selfishness extends to family or group. It is selfish to put the needs of your family above others. Ergo the human nature of ensuring a legacy of family is selfish by default.

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So then you're arguing that immigrants are selfish because they want to provide a better life for their family, which can come at the cost of society? If that's what you meant, I think I understand now.

I don't agree that it's always the case though.

[Spike 12,049]

  On 21/11/2016 at 18:53, kmk108 said:

So then you're arguing that immigrants are selfish because they want to provide a better life for their family, which can come at the cost of society? If that's what you meant, I think I understand now.

I don't agree that it's always the case though.

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Pretty much. I don't think it's is the only underlying cause but definitely a huge part of what drives us to strive for bigger and better things. If not for ourselves but for our family, if not for our family, for our larger group (race, social class, friends, etc). I don't think selfishness is necessarily a negative trait, but it's definitely a trait that has allowed humans to realise altruism through self-perspective.

For instance, in Jewish morality charity isn't just for the receiver, it is also for the giver; but the kicker is everyone is meant to be charitable, from those with nothing to everything. The giver becomes a better person for understanding that they have something that someone else needs, the cycle is meant to continue through the receiver. Only when humans realise what they want and need through selfishness can they be truly altruistic. The experienced hobo that shares his can of food with another because he understands what it is like to be a hobo, to understand the selfishness of the situation, is a truly admirable human.

[kmk108 1,186]

  On 21/11/2016 at 19:03, Spike said:

Pretty much. I don't think it's is the only underlying cause but definitely a huge part of what drives us to strive for bigger and better things. If not for ourselves but for our family, if not for our family, for our larger group (race, social class, friends, etc). I don't think selfishness is necessarily a negative trait, but it's definitely a trait that has allowed humans to realise altruism through self-perspective.

For instance, in Jewish morality charity isn't just for the receiver, it is also for the giver; but the kicker is everyone is meant to be charitable, from those with nothing to everything. The giver becomes a better person for understanding that they have something that someone else needs, the cycle is meant to continue through the receiver. Only when humans realise what they want and need through selfishness can they be truly altruistic. The experienced hobo that shares his can of food with another because he understands what it is like to be a hobo, to understand the selfishness of the situation, is a truly admirable human.

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I agree. The problem in using "selfishness" to describe this is that selfishness means you are disregarding the act's effect on others.

[Spike 12,049]

  On 21/11/2016 at 19:12, kmk108 said:

I agree. The problem in using "selfishness" to describe this is that selfishness means you are disregarding the act's effect on others.

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You are right but I don't know how else to explain it.

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

Nazis descend on Washington DC to celebrate a trump presidency:

 

Absolute nutters. Funny thing is something like this would never be allowed in Germany, but we can have Nazis in our capital steering up hate. They don't even hide it anymore. Alt-Right is pretty much just a rebranding of Rockwell's Nazi party.

 

The face of people we will have to do battle with, to save the union.

 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 21/11/2016 at 18:27, Spike said:

Looks like you didn't read my second post as we have different definitions of selfishness and what constitutes the 'self'. Mainly because I didn't state any of the points you are refuting and are arguing against another person's argument. To start with, I said that 'humans are selfish in nature', not that selfishness is the only nature of humans, just because I didn't state that humans have altruism by nature doesn't mean I stated that they do not. Absence doesn't equate truth. You filled in the gaps yourself. 

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I did read it, but I just didn't think it was relevant to the point we were discussing. 

Yes, everything about us, including our minds, did evolve through natural selection which is not exactly self-interest but it does overlap with it more often than not. So you can certainly make the argument that even our morals and highest values are ultimately derived from self interest.

But I don't think that is the same thing we are talking about because even if you define that as 'selfishness' it is NOT conscious. It's not even sub-conscious. It's built-in and its root never comes into our decision making process. So, when you see someone who desperately needs help, you help them not because it is ultimately in your self interest to promote a culture where people in need of help are given it because you or someone you love might need help in the future, but because empathy is built into your brain and your instinct is to help.

Similarly, you don't think that there are finite resources on earth which is already over-populated and has surpassed its carrying capacity and that the growing global energy demand is unsustainable without causing an environmental meltdown so it is in your self interest and the interest of your children that there are less humans on earth so you should let that person in need suffer and die. 

 

 

Note: My boss is currently sitting across me giving me the "I know you're not typing something work-related" look, so I'll continue this post when I get home

[cosmicway 1,333]

Look the nazis have never been any different.
After 1945 they joined with the others against communism, albeit reluctantly.
In West Germany they even made former Nazi Reinhard Gehlen head of counterespionage.
Gehlen was the lieutanent of the Prague butcher-creator of the SS Reinhard Heydrich.
He convinced the Americans he was the only one who knew about Soviet espionage secrets and could help them.
He proved a nutcase and a buffoon because during his term the KGB scored huge successes in the field of espionage against NATO so he resigned. But nevertheless it came to pass that German post war counter intelligence was headed by a former nazi.
The nazis and neonazis disguised as patriotic anticommunists always smeared and libeled people whom they did not like and offered a terrible service to the western alliance. But as "strength is in numbers" they were not touched and always maintained some positions of influence.
After the demise of European communism in 1990, they did a coming out job and by the year 2000 they showed their true colours: Race discrimination, antisemitism, violence against minorities and all the rest of it.