Politics & Stuff

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Police brutality in the United States has reached its boiling point.

They would rather turn an entire city into a fucking war zone and attempt to turn it into a police state rather than hold a cop responsible for the murder of a man for being black. Think about that for a moment....

Yeah, it's pretty messed up how many people die; regardless or ethnicity, creed or religion. I don't agree with rioting however, it's a disgrace that people return terrible acts in kind. What does rioting achieve? If anything it makes the police more hostile and distrusting of the general public. If I were a cop; a good cop, not corrupt or violent in anyway I'd be very worried about my own wellbeing as well as my family because of the career I chose. Many police officers work hard and give their lives to make the world a fair and safer place to be, I think it's unjust that so many have to carry the stigma of 'corruption' and 'violence' because some ( too many) police are.

Do some of the rioters want to instigate change? Yes, I suppose but it worries that more than enough of the rioters are heartless oppurtunists that are just using someone's death as a scapegoat and justification to loot and tear up the place.

The looting and violence are momentary. Racism in the US and the civil rights of minorities, on the other hand, is central issue has not been addressed properly for over 4 centuries.

Rioting is the ONLY way to get civil rights and making change has been historically.

98 police officers injured, 2 people shot. One fire victim in critical condition. Is this the price to pay for change?

That's actually a VERY minimal price it it makes actual change. Which is won't, but it's an important step in the right direction. Change costs A LOT. Even attempts at change can devastating. You think the French revolution was peaceful?

Ordinary people are usually powerless in our societies. When they attempt to take some of the power back, there is almost always violence because those who monopolize the power will always fight back.

Power to the people.

[Spike 12,049]

They would rather turn an entire city into a fucking war zone and attempt to turn it into a police state rather than hold a cop responsible for the murder of a man for being black. Think about that for a moment....

The looting and violence are momentary. Racism in the US and the civil rights of minorities, on the other hand, is central issue has not been addressed properly for over 4 centuries.

Rioting is the ONLY way to get civil rights and making change has been historically.

That's actually a VERY minimal price it it makes actual change. Which is won't, but it's an important step in the right direction. Change costs A LOT. Even attempts at change can devastating. You think the French revolution was peaceful?

Ordinary people are usually powerless in our societies. When they attempt to take some of the power back, there is almost always violence because those who monopolize the power will always fight back.

Power to the people.

The French Revolution was over 200 years ago. To bring this into discussion would be imply that humans haven't changed nor has society in that given time. What about the Indian Independance Struggle? That was peaceful, that changed more than this riot ever will.

You think that injury and violence is an okay way to force change? I do not believe so. That is an inherently sad way to view life. Of the 98 police officers injured how many actually deserved it? To say that they did in any way means you are okay with violence and for me that is not okay.

La haine attire la haine

[Spike 12,049]

People cry out agianst the death penalty yet are okay with rioting? Both are attempts to instigate change using violence. In the case of riots sometimes people do die and people do suffer.

Two Australians dead in an attempt to change and stop drug trafficking. Will it change anything? No, but no two people are dead.

A man has died in police custody. Many people injured, lively hoods ruined, property stolen and damaged. Will it change anyhting? No, now there is chaos and everything has become worse in the city of Baltimore.

Enquiries should be made into the police force by the federal government. Corruption should be stamped out, those responsible should be punished. But now justice and progression is hindered because people are burning shit.

[Kieran. 6,317]

It isn't just about Freddie Grey, it's a history of slavery, then segregation and now police brutality, there's a point where some people just burst and I can't blame them. I've never experienced what they have so how can i tell them not to riot? Everything they try, the media spins them into "thugs" and after a certain point, windows will be smashed.

I get why people are upset over that, (and this is not distracted at you Spike) but many people in my country are more concerned with broken glass than a man whose throat was smashed and his spine severed in three places while in police custody. There's just something not right about that.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

The French Revolution was over 200 years ago. To bring this into discussion would be imply that humans haven't changed nor has society in that given time. What about the Indian Independance Struggle? That was peaceful, that changed more than this riot ever will.

You think that injury and violence is an okay way to force change? I do not believe so. That is an inherently sad way to view life. Of the 98 police officers injured how many actually deserved it? To say that they did in any way means you are okay with violence and for me that is not okay.

La haine attire la haine

The methods have not changed since the French revolutions. Think of all the major uprising in recent history: Civil rights movement in the US, the struggle against Apartheid in South Africa, Women's rights movements around the world, Iran Islamic revolution...etc. Here is an article a quick google search comes up with on the important role that violent rebellion prior to 1940 played in India's independence: https://kurukshetra1.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/no-non-violence-didnt-free-india-from-the-british-empire/

The Indian independence is only the least violent, but as far as uprisings go, this one right now pretty peaceful. Violent uprisings would be like the ones in Lybia, Yemen, Syria...etc. and I mean even before the foreign interventions.

No, I don't think it's okay that people are getting hurt, but I realize that is a necessity for uprisings. I don't need to condone something to understand it. It does not make it right and the people doing it should be punished. But this sudden violence is not even comparable to regular violence that you have become accustomed to. Again, if people are given their rights there would be no violence and this violence is only momentary while rights abuses and racism have been ever present.

[Spike 12,049]

I just don't think it helps in the long run. If police are racist and this is causing brutality why would the riots make them any less racist? In fact I'd see the cops becoming more aggressive, and more violent because now they have an even larger chip on their shoulder due to retaliation. What if one day while patrolling the streets a pair of officers recognise a man from the riots, a man that was rioting an injured one of their friends. What do you think the police would do? I wouldn't be surprised if they took that young man (who only wanted change) and beat the fuck out of him and maybe even kill him.

I honestly don't think riots will make things change for the better, they can only exasperate what is already broken. I can empathise what has happened to a lot of black Americans (I don't know if that term is racist or not as I've met a lot of 'African Americans' that hate being called African because they don't associate with African culture or nations) throughout history, I can't understand what it's like to be in their shoes but I hope that as a community they can rally together and make change that doesn't rely on hitting back and causing more suffering.

[Spike 12,049]

The methods have not changed since the French revolutions. Think of all the major uprising in recent history: Civil rights movement in the US, the struggle against Apartheid in South Africa, Women's rights movements around the world, Iran Islamic revolution...etc. Here is an article a quick google search comes up with on the important role that violent rebellion prior to 1940 played in India's independence: https://kurukshetra1.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/no-non-violence-didnt-free-india-from-the-british-empire/

The Indian independence is only the least violent, but as far as uprisings go, this one right now pretty peaceful. Violent uprisings would be like the ones in Lybia, Yemen, Syria...etc. and I mean even before the foreign interventions.

No, I don't think it's okay that people are getting hurt, but I realize that is a necessity for uprisings. I don't need to condone something to understand it. It does not make it right and the people doing it should be punished. But this sudden violence is not even comparable to regular violence that you have become accustomed to. Again, if people are given their rights there would be no violence and this violence is only momentary while rights abuses and racism have been ever present.

So there was a violent act that was succeded by a peaceful revolution? America has had it's fair share of violence that instigated change so why can't it transition into peaceful change? Why couldn't the Ferguson riots be the violence that brought peaceful movements? America is stuck in a cycle of violence that needs to change, both from the powers that be and the people. Violence will only beget violence.

[iseah100 5,612]

There is no changing it. Rioting is their way of venting frustration. I know what they've gone through, from first hand experience. Racism is a big problem in the states, but there is no getting rid of it, especially not within the police force.

[Fulham Broadway 16,410]

Having graduated in politics, we learned about riots.

They are an important part of the progress and advancement of ordinary , working class people. They are not as effective as reformism, but are an important tool in our armoury. They are usually spontaneous and result from frustration and anger.

Rulers and Governments hate them, and get their lackeys in the corporate media to condemn without hesitation. The corporate media inevitably describe such events thus " It started off peacefully, but a hardcore etc etc," " the majority were peaceful, but a minority were hellbent etc etc "

The main reason is that Violent Behaviour is solely the legal preserve of governments, police and armies. They panic if their monopoly over violence is encroached upon. They fear it and have visions of past revolutions.

I wont go over the successes that riots have accomplished, they can be looked up, from food riots to poll tax etc.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

So there was a violent act that was succeded by a peaceful revolution? America has had it's fair share of violence that instigated change so why can't it transition into peaceful change? Why couldn't the Ferguson riots be the violence that brought peaceful movements? America is stuck in a cycle of violence that needs to change, both from the powers that be and the people. Violence will only beget violence.

Because the situation does not allow for it to happen? The systematic racism in the US goes too deep and the system is too powerful, it cannot be changed peacefully, imo. There were more than two weeks of peaceful demonstrations after Fredie Gray's injuries and until his death, how much did you hear about it? Did any major new network in the US even mention it? I know about it because I watch Democracy Now, the vast majority of US citizens who watch CNN or Fox and the vast numbers who don't watch the news at all knew nothing about it.

There are literally tens of peaceful demonstrations all over the US every single day and it is the exception to the rule when they actually manage to achieve something. From memory, the only achievement by peaceful protesters in the US in the past year was probably stopping an Israeli ship from docking in Michigan during the assault in Gaza. That's about it. Peaceful protests usually go without notice, at most a few people are arrested if they attempt to close down a road or block the entrance of a company.

Uprisings achieve things because it scares the people in power about their power actually being shared with the majority. Already this "violent" uprising has already managed to get the cops who killed Fredie Gray charged with homicide which would not have happened otherwise and did not happen in various similar cases even this past year. Again as far as uprisings go, this one is very peaceful. And if it manages to get police brutality against minorities even by 10-20% I'd very impressed and the dozen cars burnt would a very small price.

Funnily enough, I came across this comic today which perfectly fits this discussion:

[CHOULO19 24,332]

The main reason is that Violent Behaviour is solely the legal preserve of governments, police and armies. They panic if their monopoly over violence is encroached upon. They fear it and have visions of past revolutions.

[Spike 12,049]

Do you people even know why I believe peaceful revolution is possible? Because it has happened several times in Australia. Nobody ever mentions all the work people like Eddie Mabo, PM Gough Whitlam and Gurindji People did for Indigenous rights. Sorry it wasn't in your condescending cartoon, Cholou. I guess Aboriginal rights movments are mainstream enough to be thought relevant.

If people that have faced segregation, institutional racism, their children stolen from them, their land stolen from them, their people murder ted, can instigate man changes in a peaceful manner, then anyone can. Even now with the threats of the stupid far right government taking their lands away (again) the Indigenous people (and everyone else in between) of Australia are protesting in a peaceful manner.

[Spike 12,049]

I don't even know why you lot are arguing with me so much. I'm just saying that it could be done peacefully FFS and that violence isn't the only answer. I don't even see the arguement. Sometimes violence gets shit done, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes peaceful revolution is an option, sometimes it isn't.

[Kieran. 6,317]

"Violence isn't the answer, be more like MLK!"

Yeah, and he was murdered.

[Spike 12,049]

"Violence isn't the answer, be more like MLK!"

Yeah, and he was murdered.

That doesn't discredit anthing he did. Malcolm X was a proponet of any means necessary, I believe he was murdered also.

[Spike 12,049]

Looks like there has been justice for the guy that died in police custody. I don't agree with the methods necessarily but at the end of the day hopefully this is the start of more justice. At the very least no one else died...

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Do you people even know why I believe peaceful revolution is possible? Because it has happened several times in Australia. Nobody ever mentions all the work people like Eddie Mabo, PM Gough Whitlam and Gurindji People did for Indigenous rights. Sorry it wasn't in your condescending cartoon, Cholou. I guess Aboriginal rights movments are mainstream enough to be thought relevant.

If people that have faced segregation, institutional racism, their children stolen from them, their land stolen from them, their people murder ted, can instigate man changes in a peaceful manner, then anyone can. Even now with the threats of the stupid far right government taking their lands away (again) the Indigenous people (and everyone else in between) of Australia are protesting in a peaceful manner.

All very nice but does not give a viable plan how peaceful protest can make actual change in the US.

I don't even know why you lot are arguing with me so much. I'm just saying that it could be done peacefully FFS and that violence isn't the only answer. I don't even see the arguement. Sometimes violence gets shit done, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes peaceful revolution is an option, sometimes it isn't.

I think I have failed to communicate this to you properly so let me try again:

We are (or at least I am) arguing with you because when you repeat the media rhetoric about the violence you are (advertently or otherwise) discrediting the people protesting for their lives and distracting from the main issue.

The violence while regrettable and again must be punished, should NOT take away from the validity of the claims by the protesters. It should not even be mentioned in the same breath as the reason for the protesting because it is a completely minor issue in comparison to the civil rights of minorities. The amount of discussion it is getting is beyond ridiculous while almost no talk is going into the main issue: The fact that the US was built on slavery and that the resulting racism has not been truly addressed and amended for over four centuries.

One of the main tools of oppression throughout history is the dehumanization of those oppressed by the powerful. Because the 'unpeople' cannot be equals of humans and have the same rights. Terms such as "Thugs", "Savages", "Backward societies", "Hip-hop culture"...etc. are tools of oppression.

[Kieran. 6,317]

All very nice but does not give a viable plan how peaceful protest can make actual change in the US.

I think I have failed to communicate this to you properly so let me try again:

We are (or at least I am) arguing with you because when you repeat the media rhetoric about the violence you are (advertently or otherwise) discrediting the people protesting for their lives and distracting from the main issue.

The violence while regrettable and again must be punished, should NOT take away from the validity of the claims by the protesters. It should not even be mentioned in the same breath as the reason for the protesting because it is a completely minor issue in comparison to the civil rights of minorities. The amount of discussion it is getting is beyond ridiculous while almost no talk is going into the main issue: The fact that the US was built on slavery and that the resulting racism has not been truly addressed and amended for over four centuries.

One of the main tools of oppression throughout history is the dehumanization of those oppressed by the powerful. Because the 'unpeople' cannot be equals of humans and have the same rights. Terms such as "Thugs", "Savages", "Backward societies", "Hip-hop culture"...etc. are tools of oppression.

Well said