Axel Witsel

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Thats a very weird comment... respect? its not about respect, i just dont think they're good enough for crucial roles in a top european team, in a club that aims to be the best. Everyone has his own opinion about players, and its just football after all.

And im saying that when i actually like Ramires as a player, in some periods he was awesome for us. Mikel also helped us during his long time in the club, never rated him but i do remember his good performances. With that being said, i dont think we should rely on thier talent anymore when we're trying to improve (well, Mikel didnt played a lot last season anyway).

I think what you're missing is the fact that its hard to get players of an elite level to come here and sit on the bench, let alone come here, sit on the bench then perform when called upon. Not a skill many possess. You talk of top clubs but who of them have bench players you value in the midfield? Real Madrid? Illaramendi(at €32.2M), Khedira who wanted 200k to play for Arsenal? Barca? Adriano, Roberto, Xavi...?

Look, you are a very strong opinionated individual but every now and then you let FM 15 cloud your judgment about what is feasibly possible at big clubs. No one wants to sit on the bench, furthermore you aren't going to get top talent to come here and sit on the bench.

If we sign Witsel its awesome, he'll cost about the same as mikel and potentially may provide a bit more of what we need in a back up. That doesn't make Mikel or Ramires shit we're just looking to freshen up the roster.

Mikel was a serviceable CM who was always ready to play, not something you can say for many bench players.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

I dont care if they stay in the team for limited roles, but i think you can agree Ramires shouldnt start the big games for us, when you always talk about Pogba coming here. Someone has to come, even if its not Pogba.

This has nothing to do with my wanting Pogba! My Pogba obsession stems from the fact I think he will make our midfield the most feared in all football for many years. Ramires is more than fine to start big games for us, it just depends on what role you assign him and how you'd like the team to play. Ramires was injured for large portions of last year but the year before he played a shit ton of big games and did a decent job for us. He wasn't great this year but Ramires is a near perfect squad player, part of the reason why both Ancelotti and Jose love him so much.

[nadavTKL 1,787]

I think what you're missing is the fact that its hard to get players of an elite level to come here and sit on the bench, let alone come here, sit on the bench then perform when called upon. Not a skill many possess. You talk of top clubs but who of them have bench players you value in the midfield? Real Madrid? Illaramendi(at €32.2M), Khedira who wanted 200k to play for Arsenal? Barca? Adriano, Roberto, Xavi...?

Look you are a very strong opinionated individual but every now and then you let FM 15 cloud your judgment about what is feasibly possible at big clubs. No one wants to sit on the bench, furthermore you aren't going to get top talent to come here and sit on the bench.

If we sign Witsel its awesome, he'll cost about the same as mikel and potentially may provide a bit more of what we need in a back up. That doesn't make Mikel or Ramires shit we're just looking to freshen up the roster.

Mikel was a serviceable CM who was always ready to play, not something you can say for many bench players.

Ok... lol? i dont think we should get personal (like you just did talking to me as an "individual" ) but you're the one who's telling us about buying Pogba.. so im the FM15 guy for wanting a new CM for 18m euros?

There are people here who talk about Reus, Bale, Messi and Pogba for god sake.. and im the FM guy.. ok. Anyway - I think most of this forum thinks we need a CM.

I am well aware that not every player would come to sit on the bench during many games, but it happens in all top teams. Here's a list of players who dont know if they're going to start the next game, or know they wont:

Isco, Varane, Pepe, Gotze, Muller, J.Maritnez, Pastore, Lucas, Cabaye, Nasri, Marqionuos, Coentrao, Pedro... and the list can go on.

And if i had to chose, the CM i would get is playing for Udinese right now. Not someone who's considered "elite level", Ramires has a bigger "name" than him, he's just a better footballer.

The reality is very simple, our midfield in most games is Matic-Cesc-Oscar-Willian-Hazard, but Mourinho doesnt feel comfortable playing them in the big games.. so when Ramires is the guy who comes to fill that "Balance role", we're not good enough, not good like we want to be.

The solutions are either A) Mourinho needs to trust this line up in every game B ) Get someone who's better than Ramires.

[oldportblue 547]

ramires is good enough to start any game for us imo, mikel no.... hence witsel would be perfect replacement for mikel and we would still have fab, matic, rami and witsel to choose from to form a midfield two... that's pretty decent flexibility if you ask me

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

I am well aware that not every player would come to sit on the bench during many games, but it happens in all top teams. Here's a list of players who dont know if they're going to start the next game, or know they wont:

Isco, Varane, Pepe, Gotze, Muller, J.Maritnez, Pastore, Lucas, Cabaye, Nasri, Marqionuos, Coentrao, Pedro... and the list can go on.

And if i had to chose, the CM i would get is playing for Udinese right now. Not someone who's considered "elite level", Ramires has a bigger "name" than him, he's just a better footballer.

The reality is very simple, our midfield in most games is Matic-Cesc-Oscar-Willian-Hazard, but Mourinho doesnt feel good playing them in the big games.. so when Ramires is the guy who comes to fill that "Balance role", we're not good enough to compete the best teams.

Very simple. The solutions are either A) Mourinho needs to trust this line up in every game B ) Get someone who's better than Ramires.

So what you've gathered is the best teams have loads of attacking strength? Who of those names are squad guys that can come in a do job in the midfield for you?

Isco started 26 games...

Varane wants out...

Pepe made the most appearances out of all their CB's...

Gotze made the second most starts to Neuer...

Muller the same amount... 28 starts.

Martinez has been injured but if I'm to give you credit here I must also point out Bayern activated his buyout at €40m(are you advocating we do the same?)

Pastore 31 starts...

Moura got injured but made 22 starts...

Cabaye wants out...

Nasri is shit... and injured.

Marquinos is young...

Coentrao injured and we have Luis in a similar role.

Pedro unlucky.

I'm wondering if you even bothered to look this stuff up? Its clear to me that finding high calibre squad players, the types that can win you a game and not see a drop off in spot starts, are hard to come by. Everyone wants to play and the better ones won't settle for a reduced role when they can go elsewhere and start.

And in your opinion Witsel is better than Ramires and is the difference between us getting to a champions league final? hmmmm.... not so sure of that.

[nadavTKL 1,787]

So what you've gathered is the best teams have loads of attacking strength? Who of those names are squad guys that can come in a do job in the midfield for you?

Isco started 26 games...

Varane wants out...

Pepe made the most appearances out of all their CB's...

Gotze made the second most starts to Neuer...

Muller the same amount... 28 starts.

Martinez has been injured but if I'm to give you credit here I must also point out Bayern activated his buyout at €40m(are you advocating we do the same?)

Pastore 31 starts...

Moura got injured but made 22 starts...

Cabaye wants out...

Nasri is shit... and injured.

Marquinos is young...

Coentrao injured and we have Luis in a similar role.

Pedro unlucky.

I'm wondering if you even bothered to look this stuff up? Its clear to me that finding high calibre squad players, the types that can win you a game and not see a drop off in spot starts, are hard to come by. Everyone wants to play and the better ones won't settle for a reduced role when they can go elsewhere and start.

And in your opinion Witsel is better than Ramires and is the difference between us getting to a champions league final? hmmmm.... not so sure of that.

I've gathered a list of players who can start a game, but also can sit on the bench - in a full healty squad most of them are not regular starters. Same job Ramires is doing here.

Players like Gotze, Muller and Isco started so many games because of injuries, in a full squad they would have started less.

Ramires (who started 18 games in all competitions) probably would've started more games if he wasnt injured for some time this season, and he would've started even more if Cesc, Willian or Oscar were injured for a long time.

People also talk about our starting players playing game after game without any rest... in the start of the season Mourinho kept playing the same midfield every game because he didnt believe in his squad options.

Better "squad players" would also help keeping everybody fresh for a long season.

Again you talk about Witsel, but he's just an example for me. But yeah, a better CM than Ramires could help us reach higher achievements in CL... off course it would only help.

If Witsel or any CM comes here, his motivation would also be to prove he's better for the team than the regular #10 - Oscar/Willian. So he'll start next to Matic and Cesc and not them.

I think Mourinho acknowledge this stuff when he talked about "creating competition in the squad" a few weeks ago.

[Sosuke Aizen 46]

@Chelsea Legend 11

To be honest, Gotze made that many starts only because Robben and Ribery were out for long periods of time. When all of Robben, Ribery, Lewandowski and Mulller are fit, Gotze doesn't start.

Same case with Isco. When CR7, Bale, James, Modric, Kroos and Benzema are all fit, he doesn't start.

Varane is totally justified in wanting out since he's been better than Pepe whenever called upon. I can't see Witsel being better than Matic or Fabregas.

Although I do agree with your general point that high quality squad players are hard to come by, but Witsel can be that player. And it's not like Witsel won't get game time. We would have Witsel, Matic, Fabregas and Oscar vying for 3 positions. The problem we had this year is Mouriho didn't trust the backup players to come in and perform. He ran the first XI to the ground. And I can't blame him. Would I feel comfortable resting Fabregas with Mikel as his backup against Palace away or even Everton at home? Nope.

We need better backups than we have now. Players we can truly trust to come in and not only do a job but be influential.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

I've gathered a list of players who can start a game, but also can sit on the bench - in a full healty squad most of them are not regular starters. Same job Ramires is doing here.

Players like Gotze, Muller and Isco started so many games because of injuries, in a full squad they would have started less.

Ramires (who started 18 games in all competitions) probably would've started more games if he wasnt injured for some time this season, and he would've started even more if Cesc, Willian or Oscar were injured for a long time.

People also talk about our starting players playing game after game without any rest... in the start of the season Mourinho kept playing the same midfield every game because he didnt believe in his squad options.

Better "squad players" would also help keeping everybody fresh for a long season.

Again you talk about Witsel, but he's just an example for me. But yeah, a better CM than Ramires could help us reach higher achievements in CL... off course it would only help.

If Witsel or any CM comes here, his motivation would also be to prove he's better for the team than the regular #10 - Oscar/Willian. So he'll start next to Matic and Cesc and not them.

I think Mourinho acknowledge this stuff when he talked about "creating competition in the squad" a few weeks ago.

I get what you're alluding to but what I'm pointing out is attackers are often rotated whereas defenders and holding mids keep their place. Attackers are about form, defenders and mids are about solid partnerships. In the case of our midfield what we need is for someone to come in and spell Matic from time to time and perhaps slot in next to Cesc and Matic for certain games. These types of fixtures don't creep up a lot of the time and require squad players who can perform when called upon. Unless we get a player to improve our XI and thus change our shape or push a starter to the bench, then what we're going to be subjected to is a Ramires, Mikel, Witsel type player. We're not gonna get Javi Martinez to come here and sit on our bench, and quite simply we can't afford a player like that. So when you're looking around Europe be sure to do so knowing that while we are a big club, we don't have the same sort of resources available to make a player who is formidable in our midfield sit on our bench.

Ramires is more than fine, who are these squad players at other clubs that will displace him in our team? Or better still who are these better players who are able to play a limited role and still remain good options should something go wrong? There simply aren't enough of those types to go around... Someone like Gustavo chose to go play everyday at Wolfsburg instead of joining Arsenal. Is Guarin really going to make our midfield good enough to best one of the bigs and get us to a finals? I would really love for you to focus on the names of these individuals and when you do so try coming up with a number said player would be available for.

Ramires has won everything at the club level and wasn't exactly a passenger for most of those wins...

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

@Chelsea Legend 11

To be honest, Gotze made that many starts only because Robben and Ribery were out for long periods of time. When all of Robben, Ribery, Lewandowski and Mulller are fit, Gotze doesn't start.

Same case with Isco. When CR7, Bale, James, Modric, Kroos and Benzema are all fit, he doesn't start.

Varane is totally justified in wanting out since he's been better than Pepe whenever called upon. I can't see Witsel being better than Matic or Fabregas.

Although I do agree with your general point that high quality squad players are hard to come by, but Witsel can be that player. And it's not like Witsel won't get game time. We would have Witsel, Matic, Fabregas and Oscar vying for 3 positions. The problem we had this year is Mouriho didn't trust the backup players to come in and perform. He ran the first XI to the ground. And I can't blame him. Would I feel comfortable resting Fabregas with Mikel as his backup against Palace away or even Everton at home? Nope.

We need better backups than we have now. Players we can truly trust to come in and not only do a job but be influential.

Do you really think Gotze was purchased to sit on the bench? really? He's struggling to fit into Pep's system because it doesn't require a 10. But that's besides the point, its clear you see more rotation in attackers than you do, say, in defence.

Yes Isco is a casualty of the Galaticos, its clear we can't use them as a model of how to build a proper team.

I'm not saying anything more about Witsel other than he is an upgrade to Mikel, how much of one is debatable but I jumped in on this when I heard that Ramires and Mikel weren't good enough to play for a club of our stature... I don't believe that for a second.

Last year Ramires was injured for most of it. How many times in a post game did you here Mourinho say " I have my Rami back" ? Its not because he thought he was shit but because he was oft injured.

[termninja 5,290]

Song and Schneiderlin aside, Witsel is the only midfielder available for a reasonable price who possesses enough quality for our team.

If he's really available for 15-20m and Jose likes his style, hell yes!

[nadavTKL 1,787]

I get what you're alluding to but what I'm pointing out is attackers are often rotated whereas defenders and holding mids keep their place. Attackers are about form, defenders and mids are about solid partnerships. In the case of our midfield what we need is for someone to come in and spell Matic from time to time and perhaps slot in next to Cesc and Matic for certain games. These types of fixtures don't creep up a lot of the time and require squad players who can perform when called upon. Unless we get a player to improve our XI and thus change our shape or push a starter to the bench, then what we're going to be subjected to is a Ramires, Mikel, Witsel type player. We're not gonna get Javi Martinez to come here and sit on our bench, and quite simply we can't afford a player like that. So when you're looking around Europe be sure to do so knowing that while we are a big club, we don't have the same sort of resources available to make a player who is formidable in our midfield sit on our bench.

Ramires is more than fine, who are these squad players at other clubs that will displace him in our team? Or better still who are these better players who are able to play a limited role and still remain good options should something go wrong? There simply aren't enough of those types to go around... Someone like Gustavo chose to go play everyday at Wolfsburg instead of joining Arsenal. Is Guarin really going to make our midfield good enough to best one of the bigs and get us to a finals? I would really love for you to focus on the names of these individuals and when you do so try coming up with a number said player would be available for.

Ramires has won everything at the club level and wasn't exactly a passenger for most of those wins...

For the fifth time - the CMs im talking about are not players you consider "World Class" (literally said the opposite), but players like Allan, Witsel, Imbula, Schneiderlin. Not Guarin.. where did he came from.

Im "focusing on the names of these individuals" for this all discassion, you ignore it.

Mourinho preferred to play with another CM next to Matic and Cesc in a lot of games - he did it in away games vs teams like Stoke, WHU, Southempton etc, he did it in big games vs United, Liverpool, City etc, and he did it in CL ko games.

And he even did it in some 'comfortable' home and away games. Thats a big chunk of games this new CM is probably going to start, a lot of 'rotation' in my opinion.

So i'll fully understand if Jose wants a more technical CM instead of Ramires for all of those games. A better passer, a better ball handler, because imo Ramires's inability in those areas costing us every time we want to get from

defence to attack, to keep possession, or handle ball pressure from the opponent. i dont think Ramires is more than fine to start those games because of his very obvious technical flaws. but we can disagree on that.

Also for the fifth time - Ramires stays at the club for me. You dont need to tell me how helpful he can be, but idealy he's the 4th CM next season. Like Mikel this past season.

"I jumped in on this when I heard that Ramires and Mikel weren't good enough to play for a club of our stature" - i dont know if anyone said they cant play here. I know i didnt. Im talking about STARTING lots of games, specific type of games i mentioned above.

And im quoting myself - "crucial roles". Im more than fine with Ramires as a regular sub, starting cup games, starting a PL game once in a while, start in case of injurys. If Mikel also wants to stay here to be 5th or 6th CM i also wouldnt mind, if it was possible.

[cfcs most wanted 657]

It seems the media links all Belgian players with Chelsea

its probably because they are all so good players

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Thats a very weird comment... respect? its not about respect, i just dont think they're good enough for crucial roles in a top european team, in a club that aims to be the best. Everyone has his own opinion about players, and its just football after all.

And im saying that when i actually like Ramires as a player, in some periods he was awesome for us. Mikel also helped us during his long time in the club, never rated him but i do remember his good performances. With that being said, i dont think we should rely on thier talent anymore when we're trying to improve (well, Mikel didnt played a lot last season anyway).

There's a huge difference between saying that you think that we need to improve on our Ramires and Mikel, which is more than completely acceptable, and saying things like we would be "screwed" or "fucked" if they play or that it is impossible to compete with them even as backup players as if you are talking about a couple of below amateur players who are only part of the team for charity reasons especially when those two have been crucial in the past for us winning A LOT of trophies.

I know that you don't mean to slag them off but a bit more respect goes a long way in keeping the discussions civil and rational.

[Blue Colored Sky 1,807]

Why I'm seeing his old footage from Standard/Benfica days and he plays as a box-to-box/attacking midfielder while for Zenit he plays solely as a defensive midfielder ? What the hell happened here ?

His offensive abilities were good enough back in the days for the midfielder I want. He linked up good, could spot the pass, could pass with left and right foot and was able to drag the ball and join the attack running to the box.

If he can blend his offensive skills from old days with defensive skills from Zenit days that would be the midfield player I'm thinking of. But I'm literally powerless to judge if he can recover his offensive play or not after 3 years on the East.

[johnnythefirst 1,076]

How does Juventus plan on playing all their cms

Some will leave, I guess?

[jernej93 569]

Stilll, I wouldnn't say Witsel is limited or one dimensional. He is quick, energetiic, he can score, his tackles are nice. Fábregas-Matic-Witsel in the middle would be amazing.

He can't pass .. all I need to know from midfield player.

[Stingray 9,441]

He can't pass .. all I need to know from midfield player.

Sorry but thats completely untrue.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

nadavTKL, on 20 Jun 2015 - 12:33 AM, said:

For the fifth time - the CMs im talking about are not players you consider "World Class" (literally said the opposite), but players like Allan, Witsel, Imbula, Schneiderlin. Not Guarin.. where did he came from.

Im "focusing on the names of these individuals" for this all discassion, you ignore it.

Mourinho preferred to play with another CM next to Matic and Cesc in a lot of games - he did it in away games vs teams like Stoke, WHU, Southempton etc, he did it in big games vs United, Liverpool, City etc, and he did it in CL ko games.

And he even did it in some 'comfortable' home and away games. Thats a big chunk of games this new CM is probably going to start, a lot of 'rotation' in my opinion.

So i'll fully understand if Jose wants a more technical CM instead of Ramires for all of those games. A better passer, a better ball handler, because imo Ramires's inability in those areas costing us every time we want to get from

defence to attack, to keep possession, or handle ball pressure from the opponent. i dont think Ramires is more than fine to start those games because of his very obvious technical flaws. but we can disagree on that.

Also for the fifth time - Ramires stays at the club for me. You dont need to tell me how helpful he can be, but idealy he's the 4th CM next season. Like Mikel this past season.

"I jumped in on this when I heard that Ramires and Mikel weren't good enough to play for a club of our stature" - i dont know if anyone said they cant play here. I know i didnt. Im talking about STARTING lots of games, specific type of games i mentioned above.

And im quoting myself - "crucial roles". Im more than fine with Ramires as a regular sub, starting cup games, starting a PL game once in a while, start in case of injurys. If Mikel also wants to stay here to be 5th or 6th CM i also wouldnt mind, if it was possible.

Schneiderlin is not going to come here and sit on the bench, he has absolutely no reason to. He is the exact same type of mid as matic and not box to box. If we went with our midfield 3 formation with matic, Schneiderlin and fab we likely would struggle in counter attack, which is primarily our tactic against big teams. I'm also pretty sure I was the first person who mentioned Allan's around here and while I agree he would be a decent addition, he's not going to be the difference between us getting knocked out in the q-finals and winning the champs league... You're basically calling for refreshers not player who will actually improve us. Imbula is a good draw! Though he is young and not exactly a counter attacking threat... I like him though.

A lot of those games you mentioned came down to injury or fatigue, our preferred shape was definitely 4-2-3-1 but yes we are a fluid squad and there will be lots of opportunities for a player to come in and play minutes for us. My point of contention is whether Witsel will come in and provide more for our midfield in big matches than a healthy Ramires. Sure he can best Mikel based on what I've seen but Ramires' ball winning, goal scoring and counter attacking prowess make it hard to leave him out of those big games you refer to. He is a ball winning box to box and in my opinion is greatly underrated.

And when you said "I can't think of a reason why Ramires should keep getting all those crucial minutes in big games" was the point in which I interjected. Real Madrid wanted Ramires TWICE under two different managers... The only managers to win the Champions League twice see him as a key figure. He has a role to play, what you're saying is you want an upgrade and I'm not sure one exists in the SQUAD player ranks and the only real upgrades will cost a mint. Witsel hasn't shown or proven he's more influential in big games and until he does you can't really slag off Ramires in favour of him, Imbula, Allan or whoever else. We have a high quality squad player who has won everything at the club level and did so play a big role...

[nadavTKL 1,787]

Schneiderlin is not going to come here and sit on the bench, he has absolutely no reason to. He is the exact same type of mid as matic and not box to box. If we went with our midfield 3 formation with matic, Schneiderlin and fab we likely would struggle in counter attack, which is primarily our tactic against big teams. I'm also pretty sure I was the first person who mentioned Allan around

So we agree on something...

Im accepting your opinion about Schneiderlin's style. Im not sure about him either (and his price).

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

So we agree on something...

Im accepting your opinion about Schneiderlin's style. Im not sure about him either (and his price).

but a footnote to what I actually wrote... My phone sucks.