Andreas Christensen

[-Kaplan- 410]

2 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

He could be 100m.

the point is people say Mou doesnt give young players a chance. 

Truth is he gives it to those that are good. 

If you are quality you will play, if you are 5m, free or 100m 

If you have potential to be good, but not yet, Mou wont play you, you will be loaned and if or when you improve elsewhere, you will then play

Kdb had potential, but apart from one top game, he was average here. After he turned good, he decided to leave, nothing we could do here. 

That's the season we were playing Ramires as RW. 

[The Skipper 20,593]

17 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

Well KDB wasnt youngster either, he came as very promising player from Genk, already had CL experience...

I thought we were discussing about Mou giving chance to young players, regardless being youth product or foreign talent, as long they are not established yet.

Indeed Rash was brought by Gaal, but still he is 19 (or 20?) and considering Mou plays him, it kinda takes away the rule Mou doesnt play youngsters. He does as long they are performing.

Never said Jose doesn’t play youngsters. I think he’s just extremely bad at handling them. A few exceptions doesn’t change that. 

[Jase 43,479]

1 hour ago, The Skipper said:

Never said Jose doesn’t play youngsters. I think he’s just extremely bad at handling them. A few exceptions doesn’t change that. 

Luke Shaw is a perfect example of Mourinho's poor management of young players. I'd even say that Mourinho hardly ever improves players - youth and senior - especially in the last 6-7 years. He may improve players from the mental aspect - even then, he tends to throw them under the bus when things go wrong - but not technical wise. Can hardly pinpoint a player that he has helped to add more 'weapons' into his game. It's always just the same kind of play coming from players under him.

[blues.bridge 343]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

Luke Shaw is a perfect example of Mourinho's poor management of young players. I'd even say that Mourinho hardly ever improves players - youth and senior - especially in the last 6-7 years. He may improve players from the mental aspect - even then, he tends to throw them under the bus when things go wrong - but not technical wise. Can hardly pinpoint a player that he has helped to add more 'weapons' into his game. It's always just the same kind of play coming from players under him.

luke shaw will be virtually a gift in the nexts window! i will take him immediately!

[The Skipper 20,593]

3 hours ago, Jason said:

Luke Shaw is a perfect example of Mourinho's poor management of young players. I'd even say that Mourinho hardly ever improves players - youth and senior - especially in the last 6-7 years. He may improve players from the mental aspect - even then, he tends to throw them under the bus when things go wrong - but not technical wise. Can hardly pinpoint a player that he has helped to add more 'weapons' into his game. It's always just the same kind of play coming from players under him.

Spot on. Add Martial to that. Shocking stuff. 

[communicate 2,703]

On 11/7/2017 at 7:20 AM, BlueLyon said:

TBH, all this talk of Mou not giving chance to youth is not entirely true. He gave chance to Zouma and he now plays Baily every week at united who was 22 when he arrived.

Its simply a matter of quality and imediate impact. Yes, young players usualy dont have imediate impact, thats the point, but very very few do, and when that is, Mou plays them, regardless of age.

Thats why Zouma played here, Baily and Rashford play at United, Varane did at Real. All under Mou. Pretty sure Christensen would too, if he Mou was still here, because the boy is quality and has imediate impact. On other hand, KDB simply didnt have that impact back then with us. Talented yes, but with much to learn. Even last year, he was very inconsistent, only this year he truly truly stepped up.

Indeed we made mistake selling KDB, but I understand why he didnt play under Mou. It was series of misfortunate moments; Mou coaching him when he was not ready yet, Chelsea loaning him out and as result him wanting to leave when he was becoming realy quality player. If only we put buyback clause, thats where we truly fucked up.

Still the beauty of football is when someone isnt at club anymore, someone else comes. In our case it will just take more time and money to find our KDB again.

Mou is not good at developing youth that is obvious.

Bailly is 30 m player, I don't consider him as youth. Rashford was given a chance by LVG not Mourinho.

Youth player is imo young unproven player. Christensen is not a youth player,

[Reddish-Blue 2,347]

8 hours ago, The Skipper said:

Spot on. Add Martial to that. Shocking stuff. 

Martial is perfect in his current role.  

In Mourinho's tactics, he wants that burst of energy from the bench, he doesn't want to see Martial jogging around the pitch, letting his opposite number off the hook in the defensive aspect of the game. 

[the wes 7,212]

11 hours ago, blues.bridge said:

luke shaw will be virtually a gift in the nexts window! i will take him immediately!

Luke Shaw will end up with spurs and Danny Rose going to utd I'm afraid mate

[The Skipper 20,593]

42 minutes ago, Reddish-Blue said:

Martial is perfect in his current role.  

In Mourinho's tactics, he wants that burst of energy from the bench, he doesn't want to see Martial jogging around the pitch, letting his opposite number off the hook in the defensive aspect of the game. 

Disagree. He’s Utd’s 2nd most talented player after Pogba. Jose has to find a way to put him in the 11. Jose kills attackers with this defensive responsibility nonsense. 

[BlueLyon 9,359]

17 hours ago, The Skipper said:

Disagree. He’s Utd’s 2nd most talented player after Pogba. Jose has to find a way to put him in the 11. Jose kills attackers with this defensive responsibility nonsense. 

Tbh best players in the world track back and work hard. Barca under Pep for example might be tiki taka possession based team, but off the ball, they constantly ran up and down, closing opponents.

Martial, much as many other talents jog around these days. Obviously you dont play them. Fair to say Van Gaal played him, but United as whole was crap back then. Mou wants to win titles and there is no place for players like Martial who dont run enough, regardless of their talent. There must be some standards still.

On the whole I agree Mou gives too much responsibility to attackers, but Martial realy isnt good example. Talented yes, but also lazy.

RLC for example has plenty of talent too, but he will never play in quality side if he doesnt improve his work rate.

Mourinho is a bad example but generaly, football doesnt work like you give chance to player who has talent. You give it to those who are willing to leave their heart on ground. Those will play. Tricky players who only see goal will not. There are things like team work, intelligence, maturity, hard work, determination.

Players like Hazard are tricky too, but they have other departments fixed too. He is team player, decent worker, runs quite alot. All best players in the world do that, including Ronaldo or Messi.

Nasri, Ben Arfa,...all have or had talent, but so far lack everything else. You cant build team around them. Even Pep didnt give Ihenacho proper chance despite he was extremely promising.

Not saying Martial is in same class, but he will have to improve big time. As far I know when Ibra arrived, he was very dissapointed as he was ''forced'' to give number 9 away. The fuck is that? Crying over number that was rightfuly given to a man who earned much more in his career than Martial?

Often players move to smaller or different club when they cant suceed in current. It just shows they made too big step. Nice example would be De Bruyne. Nasri on other hand never managed to reinvent himself anywhere he went. Arfa was excelent in Nice, but doesnt even play for PSG. He obviously has talent, but lacks everything else, thats why he doesnt play.

Same is with Martial. Talent is not everything and he will have to work much harder and become mature if he wants to play for top team. Honestly nothing to do with Mourinho here, many United fans will admit he is talented, but lazy, selfish and gives ball away too many times.

Again, Mou is bad example here, but there are so called talented players who get hyped over their skills, and fans think they are super players and demand them to play, but in reality they lack many other qualities to make a team player and oftenly thats reason they dont play.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

On 7. 11. 2017 at 9:00 PM, Jason said:

Luke Shaw is a perfect example of Mourinho's poor management of young players. I'd even say that Mourinho hardly ever improves players - youth and senior - especially in the last 6-7 years. He may improve players from the mental aspect - even then, he tends to throw them under the bus when things go wrong - but not technical wise. Can hardly pinpoint a player that he has helped to add more 'weapons' into his game. It's always just the same kind of play coming from players under him.

You could say he was unlucky with injuries too. Wilshere is similar. Or Micah Richards back then.

I agree with rest, but Shaw is not the best example here IMO.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

19 hours ago, communicate said:

Mou is not good at developing youth that is obvious.

Bailly is 30 m player, I don't consider him as youth. Rashford was given a chance by LVG not Mourinho.

Youth player is imo young unproven player. Christensen is not a youth player,

I agree he is terrible in managing youth ie. unproven players; players who come from club ranks and never played in competitive matches. But here we discuss players ala Baily, Varane, Zouma, Kdb, Martial, Shaw. etc. who all played competitive games (and quite well too) before being managed under Mou.

Thing is that people point out something like this; Shaw is not playing; interpretation: Mou is awful with young players. Mou doesnt play young players.

No. Shaw is not playing because he had injuries, he was unfit and seems to lack work ethic. Martial doesnt play as much because he lacks work ethic too. Lindelof isnt playing either, because he is terrible atm. If they were good, they would play like Zouma, Rashford, Baily, Lukaku play(ed).

Best players in world track back. Mou demands even more, but in current state, Martial or Shaw wouldnt play under Pep or Barca either. There is no place for whinny, selfish or lazy players in teams that want to win titles. Smaller sides are better for development of these youngsters. If they dont make it in big club, its often reason that they made too big step forward, not in manager.

[communicate 2,703]

2 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

I agree he is terrible in managing youth ie. unproven players; players who come from club ranks and never played in competitive matches. But here we discuss players ala Baily, Varane, Zouma, Kdb, Martial, Shaw. etc. who all played competitive games (and quite well too) before being managed under Mou.

Thing is that people point out something like this; Shaw is not playing; interpretation: Mou is awful with young players. Mou doesnt play young players.

No. Shaw is not playing because he had injuries, he was unfit and seems to lack work ethic. Martial doesnt play as much because he lacks work ethic too. Lindelof isnt playing either, because he is terrible atm. If they were good, they would play like Zouma, Rashford, Baily, Lukaku play(ed).

Best players in world track back. Mou demands even more, but in current state, Martial or Shaw wouldnt play under Pep or Barca either. There is no place for whinny, selfish or lazy players in teams that want to win titles. Smaller sides are better for development of these youngsters. If they dont make it in big club, its often reason that they made too big step forward, not in manager.

For me every manager has their preference in term of system and what he expect from a player in certain position. Unless you are super talented,  there is no way the manager will change his system to cater you. Last year after Jesus came, Aguero was on the bench most of the time, because Jesus fit the way city play better. So either you adapt, or stay on the bench. 

The same with player. Every player is a system player. In order for him to shine, he need to be put in a position/role where he can use his strength and hide his weaknesses.

In term of Martial and Shaw, I cannot say much because I haven't watched them play at all under Mou. I have to admit under LVG, I thought United got a bargain with Martial, he was direct, pacy and strong.

Like you said, maybe Mou expect his winger to track back more and Martial does not do that.

[The Skipper 20,593]

9 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

Tbh best players in the world track back and work hard. Barca under Pep for example might be tiki taka possession based team, but off the ball, they constantly ran up and down, closing opponents.

Martial, much as many other talents jog around these days. Obviously you dont play them. Fair to say Van Gaal played him, but United as whole was crap back then. Mou wants to win titles and there is no place for players like Martial who dont run enough, regardless of their talent. There must be some standards still.

On the whole I agree Mou gives too much responsibility to attackers, but Martial realy isnt good example. Talented yes, but also lazy.

RLC for example has plenty of talent too, but he will never play in quality side if he doesnt improve his work rate.

Mourinho is a bad example but generaly, football doesnt work like you give chance to player who has talent. You give it to those who are willing to leave their heart on ground. Those will play. Tricky players who only see goal will not. There are things like team work, intelligence, maturity, hard work, determination.

Players like Hazard are tricky too, but they have other departments fixed too. He is team player, decent worker, runs quite alot. All best players in the world do that, including Ronaldo or Messi.

Nasri, Ben Arfa,...all have or had talent, but so far lack everything else. You cant build team around them. Even Pep didnt give Ihenacho proper chance despite he was extremely promising.

Not saying Martial is in same class, but he will have to improve big time. As far I know when Ibra arrived, he was very dissapointed as he was ''forced'' to give number 9 away. The fuck is that? Crying over number that was rightfuly given to a man who earned much more in his career than Martial?

Often players move to smaller or different club when they cant suceed in current. It just shows they made too big step. Nice example would be De Bruyne. Nasri on other hand never managed to reinvent himself anywhere he went. Arfa was excelent in Nice, but doesnt even play for PSG. He obviously has talent, but lacks everything else, thats why he doesnt play.

Same is with Martial. Talent is not everything and he will have to work much harder and become mature if he wants to play for top team. Honestly nothing to do with Mourinho here, many United fans will admit he is talented, but lazy, selfish and gives ball away too many times.

Again, Mou is bad example here, but there are so called talented players who get hyped over their skills, and fans think they are super players and demand them to play, but in reality they lack many other qualities to make a team player and oftenly thats reason they dont play.

Yes, even players under Pep track back/press/work hard but you didn’t see Messi playing at LB for example right? 

He’s not lazy or selfish either - that’s a narrative Jose is trying to create as always - as a CFC fan who’s experienced that bullshit before (take a look at KDB who Jose tried to brand ‘lazy’) you should know better. 

[Jase 43,479]

10 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

You could say he was unlucky with injuries too. Wilshere is similar. Or Micah Richards back then.

I agree with rest, but Shaw is not the best example here IMO.

It is Shaw's injury why I mentioned him as a perfect example of Mourinho's poor management of youth players. He's still a young player and he suffered a serious injury not too long ago. Instead of being nurtured back carefully, getting encouragement from the manager, what does Mourinho do? Publicly embarrass him and throw him under the bus after every time he plays. Is that really good management? No wonder Shaw has said he would love to play for Pochettino again. Mourinho only knows one way of managing players - which is through the media. Criticize them in the public and see how they react - if they react well, then they are in the team. if not, they're out regardless of whether they are actually talented or not. This method may work 10 years ago but it doesn't now. It may still work on certain players but in other situations, the classic arm around the shoulders approach is needed but he's clearly incapable of that. No wonder he's getting outshone by a number of high profile managers out there.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

8 hours ago, The Skipper said:

Yes, even players under Pep track back/press/work hard but you didn’t see Messi playing at LB for example right? 

He’s not lazy or selfish either - that’s a narrative Jose is trying to create as always - as a CFC fan who’s experienced that bullshit before (take a look at KDB who Jose tried to brand ‘lazy’) you should know better. 

Mourinho is far from only manager who does that. You exagerrate now. 

Its trend to throw stick at Mou on here, I get it people cant accept he decided to join United. That doesnt mean we shouldnt be objective.

Hazard learned several very good things under management of Mou, he stepped to next level in 2014/15. 

Defending is part of the game and even Pedro was very important to that in Pep days at barcelona. He literaly tracked back to defense if needed. 

Off the ball, every top manager will demand players to run and chase opponent. 

The difference is the style of play. Pep plays possesion, Mou plays counter attacks. And obviously the difference then is Mou players defend for 60min, while Pep players only for 30min of the game. 

But either of the two will demand lot of running and tracking. 

Pochettino is killing his players with training, he demands excellent physical preparation and willingness to run whole game. The difference is Alli, Kane and others accepted that. 

You are naive if you think Pochetino, Pep, Bielsa, Sari, any other quality manager demands any less running than Mou does. Off the ball, everyone has to run. 

However some defend longer in game and some less.

But for example Martial, every manager would want him to be prepared to track back and run when not in possesion. But he is lazy and he needs to improve if he wants to play. 

[The Skipper 20,593]

2 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

But for example Martial, every manager would want him to be prepared to track back and run when not in possesion. But he is lazy and he needs to improve if he wants to play. 

Please provide proof he’s lazy. Improve in what exactly? You’re acting like Martial is some 16 year old just breaking through for the academy .

I’m not sure how saying Mourinho is rubbish at developing young (attacking especially) players equates to me saying that Martial shouldn’t do stuff off the ball. 

Edit:

This is quite timely.  

 

[BlueLyon 9,359]

1 hour ago, The Skipper said:

Please provide proof he’s lazy. Improve in what exactly? You’re acting like Martial is some 16 year old just breaking through for the academy .

I’m not sure how saying Mourinho is rubbish at developing young (attacking especially) players equates to me saying that Martial shouldn’t do stuff off the ball. 

Edit:

This is quite timely.  

 

You cant provide proof black on white regarding Martial lazyness. But as long you watch the United games, you will see what Im talking about.

There is no doubt Martial is extremely talented, I never said he isnt. His ball control is brilliant. But the reason he isnt playing ahead of Rashford is because Rashfors puts in a shift. Rash is prepared to press and track down, run entire game.

Martial needs to develop better tactical understanding and workrate to suceed in PL. If he does that, he can be top 3 players in league. This is where he has to improve.

But until then, I understand why Mou plays Rashford ahead of Martial as first choice and most of united fans see that aswell.

The base in premier league is good tactical understanding and willingness to work hard. Then on top of that comes talent. But every talent from Hazard to Silva to Sanchez knows tactical requirements and the work shift required. Rashford knows it too. Martial as of now doesnt.