Tomo

Massive exaggeration, yes he fucked up with De Bruyne, yes he fucked up this season an deserrd the sack, but 5 years, really?

Arsenals problems are deep ridden with Wenger, he is clueless and can't adapt to the modern times, same mistakes season after season, and notice how quiet he is these days about the money thing now Atletico won the La Liga and Leicester are on the brink winning the Premier League. Arsenal in the last ten years could have had anyone, even Messi, and they wouldn't have won either of the big two. Also it can't be a coincidence that Arsenal played their best football of post 2006 with Cesc and we play our best football since post double with him also. Yes Cesc has his weaknesses, yes he is not very good if you press him and nullify his space, but neither is Pirlo, who like Cesc is a creative midfielder with no real pace and athleticism, difference is, Pirlo has played under manager's that set teams up to utilise Andreas strengths and protect him from his weaknesses, Gatusso, Ambrosini, Vidal, Pogba, Marchisio amounsgt other's were there to offer what Pirlo couldn't and allow him to do what he does, at Arsenal or Chelsea Cesc never got that level off protection, because while I'm not denying he has his flaws the inroads he creates with even a centre metre of space is inhuman and that makes a real difference against teams that sit deep.

The ironic thing is if he stayed here, the minute he hit a rut a lot of you moaning about his sale would be "not bothered" if we decided to sell him and want him dropped for the squad option (whoever the attacking midfield version of Begovic is at the time).

Yes we screwed up, just like United did with Pogba and Stam, just like Barca did with Thiago Alcantara, it's very annoying but time to move on. On a second note I'm strongly considering a sabbatical if he nets next week.

But you said he was one if main culprits for Arsenal being so poor.

Ok we will never agree on the youth thing so best to agree to disagree, one thing that did get my attention was the Cesc thing, how is he one of the main culprits for Arsenal being poor for a decade exactly?

http://www.ja606.co.uk/articles/viewArticle/340486 That's the latest article from a United fan criticising Mata and to say he got a lot of vindication in the responses would be an understatement, in fact it bears almost striking resemblance to the discussions on here about Oscar this time last year, a lot given up on him but some people are clinging on. Mata's momentum wasn't halted by Jose (although he didn't help) his form dipped massively in the second half of 12/13 but I'll get to that in a bit. Dare I say it but that sounds close to the excuses people made for Torres (i don't think Matas declined as bad, but excuses are excuses), ones like he needs the right players around him and a manager who believes in him etc etc, firstly Jose and Van Gaal have between them won 15 league titles and 3 European Cups between them, maybe if two of the most decorated managers weren't huge fans then there's a reason for it? Secondly he was (under AVB) used on the left and was brilliant and under RDM (permanent) used in the right a lot and was in the form of his career at that time, it's no excuse for just how average he's been for quite some time. Of course Mata Is the more consistent scorer, he plays further up, and set piece delivery Is another thing Juan isn't anywhere near as good as he use to be in either. Mata shown consistency through the season In 11/12, but 12/13 he did exactly what you're criticising Cesc for and that's disappearing in the second half, apart from West Ham at home I can't think of one game after January where I thought Mata played really well, (Hazard came back from his ballboy ban and was the one driving us forward in that spell) and this was a period he was playing in his best position and under a manager that liked him. He still has his talent so there will be games he turns it on and looks very good, however the consistently good week in week out player that we had for 18 months is long gone, three and a bit years is more than just a sticky spell.

Mata does produce moments but then so does Oscar, in general Mata has been poor not only for United but his last year here, maybe it's early burnout but he looks a pale shadow of what he was in his first 18 months here (especially the first 5 in 12/13) and he gets away with a lot of criticism seeing he broke United's transfer record. Also Babara alluded too it but there always seems to be a ready made excuse for Mata, out if position, manager not liking him, strikers not producing, he was on the left a lot under AVB an in 12/13 RDM often played him on the right (due to Oscar pressing at ten) and he was in the form of his career. Go see what United fans post about him, most are every bit as sick of him as we are of Oscar, if not more. I don't condone that from Courtois, however keeper position is a little excepted due to never rotating there, outfield however there is always enough rotation that will give players chances. Of course Traore could but nothing's bulletproof, Lukaku could have messed up at Everton and had his top level career over, at Chelsea if you mess up as a young UN you're get the benefit of the doubt. Point is with Traore he has jumped from 5th choice to second with his little minutes (which makes a mockery of the myth we never gave Lukaku a chance) and has put his name out their to Conte as a trusted squad member, he could have seen Pato threw the door and thought fuck that but he didn't and his hard work has been rewarded.

This was the attacking lineup Jose inherited. Mata (25) Schurrle (he was coming Jose or not), KDB, Hazard, Oscar, Moses (all 22) and the strikers Lukaku (20), Torres (29) and Ba (27). That's an average age off 23, you can't go into a season with the competition in the front few position's with an average age that low, I bet even Wenger in his youth obsessed prime had higher average age than that. Also judging that you have dropped Mata and De Bruyne out of the silly sales, what would you're first choice front four have been that season? Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm guessing Lukaku up top, with Mata, De Bruyne and Hazard in behind? That would have been horrible for balance and im talking player profile aswell as experience, none of those three AMs can defend even remotely, Lukaku was back then anonymous vs tight marking, on a given day it would click and yes fair enough it would have looked very good, but any half decent manager vs that front four would have congested the middle of the park and exposed an isolated pivot and defense on the counter, what we've been doing to Arsenal for years team's would be doing to us, that's before I mention the fact that Lampard and Rami were hardly going to have been giving sharp service from CM. Someone might hit me back and say well if we stuck them all together and it would have clicked eventually, no because 1. How many times did we hear that with Arsenal in the mid 00s? 2. Youth need to play with experience, Hazard has touched up on how much Eto'o aided his development. 3. That band even at their prime wouldn't work, no width or off the ball nouce, as much as Schurrle and Willian weren't great that season, they offered width that help stretch play at times we were struggling. So no signing Eto'o and Willian wasn't shirt sighted, any manager worth his salt would see a crucial position filled with such inexperience and look to hike the average age up, if we had a bunch of AM in or around their prime I would have preferred Lukaku to stay over signing Eto'o, in that sense it's a shame Lukaku wasn't a few years older, the 09/10 team would have been a perfect platform for Lukaku to break through, out team was full of experienced players in or around their prime.

Leicester's season summed up in 16 second's

De Bruyne fair enough but Lukaku made it pretty clear he wanted to be number one and Costa was better (and still is), what should we have abandoned the signing off Costa because in 5 years time he would be winding down at 31 and Lukaku would be 26? What about another 5 years on when Lukaku was 26 and the next up and coming 21 year old was demanding game time? Sell Lukaku beacause again in 5 years he would be 31 and that youngster would be 26? I can accept looking to the future to some degree, but theirs looking to the future and becoming obsessed with it, Fergie always had the right idea, despite being a long term manager there was never any 5 year plan bolax, he fixed up a squad equipped to challenge on all fronts there and then and the following summer make appropriate adjustments to go again, yes he gave youth a chance and more chances if they proved themself, but he never relied on players not ready just because they might be world class in five years and he one million percent would have sold Lukaku aswell If he made a play me or sell me demand, just imagine him going into Fergies office and saying that? Sir Alex would have cleared his locker and took him to Goodison himself. Also the fact that Lukaku father said he will only go Bayern if Lewandowski leaves says all you need to know, I mean, even if they for whatever reason bowed down to that particular demand, would Bayern be expected never to sign any striker's other than squad filers until Romelu declines? After seeing the likes of Cesar and Drogba battle and fight off competition down the years, that attitude will never go well with me. Also we have a current young striker who has the potential to be as good as Lukaku in Bertrand Traore, and unlike Romelu, this guy seems happy to bide his time and fight for his place.

Only just seen that, I could spin that around and say the main argument for Mata was his end product, something he is lacking at United and gets reguarly criticised for by United fans. In fact look at Willian for example, now he has caught up with Juan in terms of end product is there one single aspect of the game Mata is better than Willy?and in terms of timing it was Willian who replaced Mata in Chelsea? If United wanted a Mata/Willian swap this summer ID tell them were to go. For the record I have completely given up on Oscar and I'm praying he either leaves or has a significantly reduced role next season (the only reason i don't say it more often is unlike my opinions re Mata, Begovic for example, what I feel regarding Oscar is quite well covered by everyone else) but just because Jose was wrong about Oscar doesn't mean he was also wrong about Mata, I do find it funny that Hazard/Courtois/Costa/Cesc got completely slated in some cases wrote off for bad spells this season yet Mata who's been average since early 2013 is supposedly the one that got away, KDB is the one that got away, not Mata, not once I have watched him play for United and thought what might have been if we kept him, I've had that emotion for Sturridge, De Bruyne and Lukaku (despite agreeing the sale of the latter has been justified all things considered) at various times but never once for Mata.

We will have to be truly unbelievably shit for me to ever fear defeat at home to Spurs, the inferiority complex they have against us (especially at The Bridge) is off the scale and will always give us an advantage against them even when they are a better team (like 5-1 at Wembley? They were better then).

Staying on when playing bad often does youngsters more damage than going off. You only need to look at Scott Carson to see how much mental damage even one bad game can do.

He still needs to work on stamina else it will become a constant theme no matter how good he plays and how good he becomes, he was anonymous in the second half vs Villa and probably wouldn't have been much better if he stayed on today. Van Der Vaart was arguably Tottenham's best player when he was there but was often the first to be hauled off because he was tanked after the hour.

Or we could do a United and get Keylor Navas as part of the deal. Not since Santiago Canizares have I seen a keeper so underrated.

Scenes if we trigger the option to buy.....

He's backup so you cant expect him to be amazing but I really hope we get Navas as part of the deal if Courtois leaves.

A Spurs win at Stamford Bridge? Things aren't that bad

Thats a fair point, but on the other hand you can sack a manager and the appointment was correct, for example Ancelotti, did a good job to bring the double here but then in the second season he was horrible, he had nothing up his sleeve tactically when things were going wrong and kept playing the same tired players and system, as much as Jose fucked up this season he atleast tried to make changes even if they didn't work atall, so in that sense you could say good appointment but things went stale and we needed a change. Also their is at times politics involved, Di Matteo for example, as much as Munich was a great story, none of the managerial skills Robbie used for that run would be required/work in the full time job, I honestly believe Roman wanted to swap Robbie for Rafa that summer but didn't want to ruin our summer in the sun after Munich (I mean could you imagine if he made that change shortly after Munich, full scale riots would have been an understatement) gave him the full time job knowing he had to be amazing to stay and well he wasn't. In some ways England is in a bit of a state which is why the opening has been created for Leicester and Spurs this season, United have a lot of work to do, Arsenal with Wenger will be same old, Liverpool need twice as big an overhaul as we do and looking at Dortmund this season I'm starting to think Klopp is overrated, Spurs will depend on if they hold onto Poch and its a Shame City have bagged Pep as they were heading for a tough few years. It won't be easy but if we get this summer window right and hit the ground running, I wouldn't bet against us.

I can take constructive criticism and I'm not immune to the odd moan myself (Torres) but sometimes I wonder that some just always want the opposite of what is currently happening, take the Lampard situation in 2012 for example,when he was not getting on with AVB there were active calls for ruthless action to be taken against him, months later it looked like exactly that was going to happen, and it was "how can the board disrespect a legend", now I know there were probably some people on either one side of the fence or the other, but there was too big a group moaning about both for their not to be some comical backtracking there somewhere, sometimes I wish I had more time on my hands (or better memory) so I could keep track and catch the culprits out. And I might be in an elite group but I back the sacking culture, so many more manager's keep their jobs when they don't deserve too as opposed to one's who get sacked harshly, United for example are a club almost obsessed with giving manager's time, I know it worked with Ferguson but that was a different time, Moyes got months longer than he should have and word is they are letting LVG see out the last year of his contract, just how? And with all of Roman's sackings, not once have I felt he pulled the plug when we were onto something great, every time there was loads of very good reason's for sackings and not just due to trophies, that's why I firmly believe Antonio will keep his job for aslong as he showing he is taking us in a good direction and we are progressing. Usually under these circumstances I wouldn't think anything other than a return to top 4 is possible, but the way Conte helped Juve rise again makes me think he could do similar here, especially given despite this season we still have a squad of title winners (and it's not like 10/11 when they all hit father time, these are all still at a relatively good age) and if as rumoured we add with the likes of Radja, Kante a new centre back and hopefully bring Andreas back im hopeful he can do it again, after all power in the middle and proactiv centre halfs was our weakness when we won the title last season, so if we can add that I'd be very hopeful, a year late but better late than never. Although having said that getting back in top 4 is crucial, so I wouldn't complain if that's "all" we do either.

Haha That will only be a temporary fix, one bad transfer and all off a sudden Buck and Emenalo were actually alright and should come back, exactly the same thing happened re Benitez every time Jose dropped points in his first six months back. Funny thing is growing up I was closer to negative than positive, but some of the overreactions on here reguarly render me speechless and brings out the Ty (overly optimistic supporter) in me.

"Awful. It could have been worse but a lot better too. It was a totally unfair red card, his second foul and his second yellow. We knew that was going to happen, Barcelona in the Champions League. " Felipe Luis

Hazard, Courtois, KDB and Azpilicueta are part of the "shite transfers from Emenalo and co". Like I alluded to before, managers having full control is a notion that is gone, Wenger is the last of the dying breed. I apologise if I'm wrong but aren't you one of the ones upset about Mata,Kevin, Romelu sale? That was one of the aspect's Jose got given full control over, im guessing you would have preferred Emenalo and co to have " interfeared " there? Before last summer our transfer record has been pretty good ever since 2011 (Torres aside), even last summer we would have been singing a whole different tune if Pogba and Stones arrived, as rumour has it we were going all out for the former and our pursuit of the latter is hardly a secret.

Wenger is the last of a dying breed of manager's having full control romance, it just simply doesn't happen anywhere anymore.