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Jason

29. Kai Havertz

Started by Jason,

394 posts in this topic
13 minutes ago, Yeboii said:

Being 21 with a team still gelling in. New league, language and culture in the hardest league of them all for a pretty timid guy. Often restricted to the wings.

When he has been playing as a 10 and the team has been more organized in the middle and attack he has been a focal point of some very nice moves.

The problem is, we don't dominate games enough, like really impose ourselves on the opposition for players like Havertz to shine. With the exception of the Palace game (and I guess the Barnsley one as well), we have either been playing too defensively or been involved in basketball games with next to control for players like him to hurt the opposition. 

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44 minutes ago, killer1257 said:

He is a slow starter. Also, it does not help that we play more defensive football than Leverkusen lol

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Playing defensive football has nothing to do with it. 

Nothing FL can/has done can impact a player's ability to do BASIC, which is shield the ball. Everything else can be over looked or excused (poor decision making, looking half arsed, slow on the turn etc etc), but can't excuse something as simple as getting dispossessed time and again. 

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Are we that impatient? He is midfielder who gives you 20 goals per season. This is so rare.

He is been played out of position today and in first two games against Brighton and Pool. In other games he had 4 goals, one assist and one penalty won.

But yes he is a slow starter, not on 50% yet.

Last season with Bayer he had 3 goals and 1 assist from August to January but from late January till end of the season he added 15 goals and 8 assists in just 24 games.

None of our front 4 has been great this season but I expect them to step up in the coming weeks.

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Lampard genuinely isn't helping by more often than not playing him.out wide. Our midfield is so unstable that we can't even afford to play Havertz in his best position right now. In the last few games he's mostly been shafted out wide, where he is usually isolated and doesn't have any runners or options to progress play. 

Lampard is effectively using him in a role where someone like Ziyech or even CHO would be more effective. He needs to play in the middle of the pitch, so he can get up to speed with how to do this in the Premier League. I would like to see him become more of a midfield general that dictates play, but also be a real threat around the box. He has the talent to be the team's offensive brain but he needs more time in these sort of positions. 

It's hard because our midfield is truly overrated - we don't really have a traditional DM and our B2B players offer no real Final third threat. I wish Kanté had the ability to really be comfortable sitting in front of the defence and that maybe Kovacic could be the connector, but it doesn't really seem to be that solid of a midfield between them. Same with Jorginho. This means that Kai doesn't have a solid consistent base to play off. 

This is one of the very big questions Lampard has to solve. 

I would like to see him try out a pivot of Mount and Kanté some time. Also, Gilmour coming back soon might help. 

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complaining about him!
he isn't which type of player who is only dribbling and can play alone! He is a team player, who can be the advanced brain of the team! For now is almost always played out of his position, in a team without idea of play, without midfield and more other! And several is complaining about him? he will finish like KDB! IMO Lampard win or lose, if he doesn't start to show some play and teamplay have to go out, and took  a good menager (like nagelsmann to see one who can be taken and not impossible)

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A note: Havertz should put some physical.
For the rest, i don't understand who is complaining about him!
he isn't which type of player who is only dribbling and can play alone! He is a team player, who can be the advanced brain of the team! For now is almost always played out of his position, in a team without idea of play, without midfield and more other! And several is complaining about him? he will finish like KDB! IMO Lampard win or lose, if he doesn't start to show some play and teamplay have to go out, and took  a good menager (like nagelsmann to see one who can be taken and not impossible)

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1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

Are we that impatient? He is midfielder who gives you 20 goals per season. This is so rare.

He is been played out of position today and in first two games against Brighton and Pool. In other games he had 4 goals, one assist and one penalty won.

But yes he is a slow starter, not on 50% yet.

Last season with Bayer he had 3 goals and 1 assist from August to January but from late January till end of the season he added 15 goals and 8 assists in just 24 games.

None of our front 4 has been great this season but I expect them to step up in the coming weeks.

Hmmm. 

I checked some of his stats from last season. It seems that he played majority of the latter part of the last season as a RW or a false 9 which might have led to the number of goals and assists. So it's not like he is playing a position unknown to him. 

Also, people are not "impatient". If that was true, Werner would have been getting some stick too. People are willing to give him time because they actually see some genuine quality in him. Werner's movement is great, something which will be used as a weapon more and more when our front 4 and mid play with each other. Plus he can build and improve his game around that aspect.

The issue with Kai is, what am I supposed to impressed by with him? He can't even hold on to the ball. That's got nothing to do with being a slow starter or a fast starter. That's the most basic and obvious skill any footballer would have. If a footballer has issues with shielding and holding onto the ball, that's a sign for worry, all the goals and assists is way down the priority.

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4 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Hmmm. 

I checked some of his stats from last season. It seems that he played majority of the latter part of the last season as a RW or a false 9 which might have led to the number of goals and assists. So it's not like he is playing a position unknown to him. 

Also, people are not "impatient". If that was true, Werner would have been getting some stick too. People are willing to give him time because they actually see some genuine quality in him. Werner's movement is great, something which will be used as a weapon more and more when our front 4 and mid play with each other. Plus he can build and improve his game around that aspect.

The issue with Kai is, what am I supposed to impressed by with him? He can't even hold on to the ball. That's got nothing to do with being a slow starter or a fast starter. That's the most basic and obvious skill any footballer would have. If a footballer has issues with shielding and holding onto the ball, that's a sign for worry, all the goals and assists is way down the priority.

Well if I remember right you were not happy your favorite NBA team signing one of the best if not best basketball player in world so idk what to say.

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Havertz will never shine against decent opposition in the setup we have now, and it does not only apply to him.

Was Werner good today? How about Pulisic, Mount or Abraham? 

There is no link at all between defence and attack. Almost every single time ball to Havertz or other attacking players come via hoofed balls, or a pass that instantly invites pressure. 

We play way, way too slowly, leading to every pass and action being so predictable that the opposition can react before it happens. How often do you see us break through the middle via Kante or Jorginho? They are much happier passing back to their closest CB/FB. The only way to progress centrally is if Havertz/Werner/Pulisic breaks away from their defender and runs towards the middle to receive the ball, but then they are instantly swarmed and without any space to run into.
It is so frustrating, as it has been this way since the pre-season. No central presence, slow and safe passing combined with wingers forced to drop deep to receive the ball with their backs to the goal. 

Havertz might adapt over time, but I worry more about someone like Werner. He is excellent when he can use his speed whether directly or indirectly. In a slow system like ours he will get next to nothing to work with.

I really fear that Frank is not ready at all to coach a big team. It sucks because he is a legend, but this kind of bias should not direct footballing decisions.

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4 hours ago, Special Juan said:

Looks half a sleep and coasting through games

Think he is a bit of a very languid looking player obviously not an excuse but he isn’t necessarily a busy body or a dog for instance. Still think he needs a few more games, he could have done more but the structure isn’t great and the attacking game plan isn't ideal either. 

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10 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

I don't know if Lampards tactics is hindering him or hes just poor.

Ive not been too impressed except against that championship side we won. 

Let's hope he adapts to the league and improves 

He has been ok. The interesting part, you have so many people defended him. If Barkley played like Havertz, he will get slaughtered. 

IMO Right now if you want to get the best out of him, no 10 behind a tammy is his best position. 

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5 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Well if I remember right you were not happy your favorite NBA team signing one of the best if not best basketball player in world so idk what to say.

What has that got to do with this? 😂😂

And while we are at it, did not PG choke in the finals, the way he AKWAYS does. Shooting 23% from the field, leading to one of the worst capitulations in the play-offs. As far as predictions and worries were concerned, that was spot on.

And the fact, that you can't provide me with an aspect of KAI's game makes me worry more. 

I have nothing against the Kai (unlike a lot of people who have it against some of our own, namely mount), I am a Chelsea fan, and would love for him to succeed and be the player everyone thinks he is. But given the hype, given the fee, there was an expectation and Kai has been far below that. He needs time to improve, rather FL has made him the focal point of our attack and changed the formation to make even the midfield worse. It's a recipe for disaster for the club and the player 

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10 hours ago, kellzfresh said:

I kind of realize that Havertz may be a team player and not individualistic. Pulisic last season could play Lampards individualistic role easily because he could hold onto the ball and dribble easily.

Havertz on the other hand needs the style of play to be right, he needs forward runners, he needs one twos and triangle setups on the pitch which Lampard doesn't coach the team on right now.

I would love to see him play with Gilmour and Kovacic at the base of our midfield. Both can dribble under pressure and Gilmour loves to give forward passes to runners. That will allow Havertz to make more runs off the ball like he did in Germany since Kante cant seem to complete a forward pass and Jorginho controls tempo by passing backwards to defenders, leaving our full backs as the only way Chelsea advance the ball forward from the back.

It is always good to have midfield who can create but it is all about balance. 

What you said essentially is to let Havertz play a free role, where he can float around and let our midfield two dictate everything. That is good but what do we give up, no kante mean no ball winner. Can we press? Nope. Can we keep the ball? Nope. So, we got better versions of Havertz but we will get far worse defensively, that is imo not a good thing. Btw he can certainly help with those two thing. Because right now he is not a good presser and he does not keep the ball well. 

In my opinion, right now Havertz is a good player with massive potential but still just a good player. The team currently being constructed probably not most ideal to get the best out of him but at the same time Havertz is not good enough player just yet to be the focal guy for title winning team. 

 

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I know different type of player and different position but he gives me Ronaldo vibes. I will explain...

Ronaldo in early days for Sporting and United was very attractive player with all the dribbling and skills but later he kind of dropped all of that to become more of a finisher and executor. And his numbers increased drastically!

Neymar is better passer and has better dribbling than CR but no one would rather take him.

Kai still needs to find himself. Ronaldo in his first 3 PL seasons scored 4,5 and 9 goals.

Look at the goals Kai scored, not really midfielder type of goals he is often most attacking player on the pitch. For me he is more of a executor than creator. And this is where I see him in the future. I am not saying he should play striker or winger he can play AM and still be this player. So he needs to focus on this like Ronaldo in 2007 and see how can he improves his game that his numbers go crazy. I think he has this ability.

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2 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

I know different type of player and different position but he gives me Ronaldo vibes. I will explain...

Ronaldo in early days for Sporting and United was very attractive player with all the dribbling and skills but later he kind of dropped all of that to become more of a finisher and executor. And his numbers increased drastically!

Neymar is better passer and has better dribbling than CR but no one would rather take him.

Kai still needs to find himself. Ronaldo in his first 3 PL seasons scored 4,5 and 9 goals.

Look at the goals Kai scored, not really midfielder type of goals he is often most attacking player on the pitch. For me he is more of a executor than creator. And this is where I see him in the future. I am not saying he should play striker or winger he can play AM and still be this player. So he needs to focus on this like Ronaldo in 2007 and see how can he improves his game that his numbers go crazy. I think he has this ability.

Kai, Puli and Timo are all more inlcined to be finishers than creators. Only Ziyech is a true creater within our attackers. That is the problem. Given our cms create zilch we need a lot of creativity to come from the fullbacks which makes us so vulnerable. On the other hand if the fullbacks stay back we are toothless offensively. I really would prefer Kai to become a complete and pure no. 10 like Ronaldinho or Zidane. He surely has the tools. When he played for Bayer tho he was most prolific as a LW bc he would play off the ball more and pop up in dangerous positions. Chelsea fans have not really warmed to that idea either, he lacks a bit of zappiness to be a winger despite his pace. The thing I want from him frist and foremost is to bea bit more snappy, play with a bit more vigor. More aggressive on and off the ball. take more chances, try shooting more often. IIRC vs Sevilla and Utd he did not try a single shot on target apart from that one poor header. He is clinical usually as soon as he pulls the trigger but he needs to pull it way more often. I dont want him to become a player like Özil who have all the skill in the world but shit it away by trying to look to elegant and not putting up with the grit and vigor that makes you a great footballer.

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On 24/10/2020 at 7:34 PM, Puliiszola said:

100m for someone who can't fucking shield the ball and made luke fucking Shaw look world class. 

Unbelievable. I am sorry, but I don't see the hype around him AT ALL. His basics are poor, has no idea how to shield a ball, can't use his 6 foot + frame. I am sorry, that's unacceptable. 

Imo, we have bought a player for 100m who is hardly looking as an upgrade on Mason mount who we love to hate for some reason that is beyond me. 

I hope he proves me wrong, but he has miles to go and improve. And if FL keeps him as a focal point for our attack, we are going to suffer.

So let me get this right, you're saying that because Havertz hasn't hit the ground running, do what?

It might take a season for him to settle in, are you prepared to give him time? and I don't mean just til next week, it\s going to take time for the whole team to gel.

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