Timo Werner

[Azul 1,615]

5 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Werner, Havertz, and CHO was probably the most fluid front three we've seen so far under Tuchel. Ziyech and Pulisic have done nothing to warrant starting over Werner. I'm still against Mount involved in our attack. Tonight was another display why. 

 

Werner was barely involved in the first half bro, it was all Havertz and CHO. Werner is much much worse than Mount in the final third, not only that but his ballplaying skills is also inferior. Even though I've criticised Mount's end product this season, it's still better than Werners and I truly believe Mount would work well with CHO and Havertz.

Also what kind of message does it send to the squad when Werner always starts after he misses vital chances and puts in shit performances?

[MoroccanBlue 5,375]

Just now, Azul said:

Werner was barely involved in the first half bro, it was all Havertz and CHO. Werner is much much worse than Mount in the final third, not only that but his ballplaying skills is also inferior. Even though I've criticised Mount's end product this season, it's still better than Werners and I truly believe Mount would work well with CHO and Havertz.

Also what kind of message does it send to the squad when Werner always starts after he misses vital chances and puts in shit performances?

Skeptical about both Mount and Havertz being in an attacking lineup, but it deserves a go. 

He's missing chances but shit performance? Think many of you are forgetting how awful Morata was. As poor as Werner has been in the third, we aren't playing with 10 men with him on the pitch. Tuchel's system is incredibly dependent on ball retention, and Werner + Mount are arguably our best players not named Kante in regards to pressing. 

 

[Azul 1,615]

5 minutes ago, MoroccanBlue said:

Skeptical about both Mount and Havertz being in an attacking lineup, but it deserves a go. 

He's missing chances but shit performance? Think many of you are forgetting how awful Morata was. As poor as Werner has been in the third, we aren't playing with 10 men with him on the pitch. Tuchel's system is incredibly dependent on ball retention, and Werner + Mount are arguably our best players not named Kante in regards to pressing. 

 

If you're not involved the whole game and suddenly miss 2-3 vital one-on-one chances then your performance is shit in my eyes. He hasn't done anything significant, and didn't contribute to any chances created.

Mount can contribute to the gegenpressing system as well as CHO, while Havertz is the false 9 and performs like he did today. It honestly is the best front three I can think of at the moment.

Edited March 8, 2021 by Azul

[MoroccanBlue 5,375]

15 minutes ago, Azul said:

If you're not involved the whole game and suddenly miss 2-3 vital one-on-one chances then your performance is shit in my eyes. He hasn't done anything significant, and didn't contribute to any chances created.

Mount can contribute to the gegenpressing system as well as CHO, while Havertz is the false 9 and performs like he did today. It honestly is the best front three I can think of at the moment.

I don't think there is balance in that attack. All three like the ball at their feet and tonight showed Havertz needs space to have his free role of creator and focal point. Werner and CHO stayed wide and through the channels, Mount will undoubtedly come through the middle. 

I genuinely don't think one or the other can play together in attack, but its worth a punt. 

 

[killer1257 3,282]

Tuchel today was furious with Werner. He was shouting at him and it was so funny😂. He once said something like this:"Timo, since when are you playing for us? You have to play on the right side, but the only thing I see is that you've been playing on the left for 15 minutes" 

Edited March 8, 2021 by killer1257

[OneMoSalah 8,883]

Starting to become even more worried about him. Really, I don’t think he warrants a place in the team at the moment based on what we have seen the last few games, his general play and finishing is poor. If Abraham, Pulisic and Ziyech were playing better he would be on the bench. 100%. He’s probably lucky they aren’t but it will be interesting to see how he does against Leeds because I think he will likely play that game. I would like to think though Havertz has made Tuchel think he is able to play in one of those roles as well v Leeds as well as the inevitability that Mason Mount will play (and deservedly so as he’s been a hugely consistent performer for us with Tuchel). 

I get Timo offers a threat in behind teams who play a high line but whats the point if he cannot put the ball in the net? He isnt very creative as many have alluded to or exactly the sort of player who looks as if he’s capable of deciding games at the moment. Having 1 PL goal and 1 assist since the turn of the year in a period of which we have played 11 games, is terrible. 

The argument was made of Frank’s tactics, Tuchel has come in and got a huge improvement out of most of the players and yes sometimes in games Werner has shown improvements but its like 1 step forward 2 steps backwards with him. Most games. I doubt hes going to get double figures in the PL this season at the rate hes going, his finishing needs major work. He isnt exactly a kid either, hes 24 years old, you would expect much more composure even more so from someone who got so many goals in Germany.

Finishing/scoring goals isnt even to do with adapting to the league either before someone quotes me and says hes in his first PL season bla bla bla, its no excuse for missing a collection of big chances which you would back your money on Giroud and Abraham scoring as well as most top 10 PL strikers. Wouldn’t go as far as saying sell him as some suggested in the match thread but he has to hugely improve next season or he could find himself sitting on the bench a lot

Edited March 8, 2021 by OneMoSalah

[Azul 1,615]

1 hour ago, MoroccanBlue said:

I don't think there is balance in that attack. All three like the ball at their feet and tonight showed Havertz needs space to have his free role of creator and focal point. Werner and CHO stayed wide and through the channels, Mount will undoubtedly come through the middle. 

I genuinely don't think one or the other can play together in attack, but its worth a punt. 

 

CHO is able to make runs in behind and score, remember his role against Rennes? I feel like that is something he has in his locker and is worth a try, because Werner is not performing anyway.

[NikkiCFC 8,286]

Bamford missed two sitters tonight so he overcome Timo again 😔

Big chances missed PL this season:

1. Bamford 17

2. Werner 16

But not really comparable since Bamford has much better conversation rate. He scored 13 goals, Timo just 5.

Werner converts just 23% of big chances. And in CL he did not score apart from pens but also has 3 big chances missed. And penalty missed against Luton. Overall around 20%. He needs 5 top chances to score one goal.

Morata in 17/18 season 11 goals and 17 big chances missed. So almost 40% conversation rate. Sorry Timo but you are the worst...

 

Edited March 9, 2021 by NikkiCFC

[robsblubot 3,595]

1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

Bamford missed two sitters tonight so he overcome Timo again 😔

Big chances missed PL this season:

1. Bamford 17

2. Werner 16

But not really comparable since Bamford has much better conversation rate. He scored 13 goals, Timo just 5.

Werner converts just 23% of big chances. And in CL he did not score apart from pens but also has 3 big chances missed. And penalty missed against Luton. Overall around 20%. He needs 5 top chances to score one goal.

Morata in 17/18 season 11 goals and 17 big chances missed. So almost 40% conversation rate. Sorry Timo but you are the worst...

 

That's looking at half of the picture. Werner's biggest strength imo is his ability go get into positions due to his quickness.

His quickness (as in blinding pace) will also make him look bad at times, as he will make himself available more often and often without proper balance. Yes, he should do better, and I think he will; again, because he's a good player.

Good player who is contributing to our current good form - that's really all there is to it.

Edited March 9, 2021 by robsblubot

[Jase 43,479]

2 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Bamford missed two sitters tonight so he overcome Timo again 😔

Big chances missed PL this season:

1. Bamford 17

2. Werner 16

Is this a contest to you? 🤣

The xG numbers paint a slightly different story to the stats above, especially for Bamford. Bamford's league xG for the season is 13.92 and with 13 goals scored, he's pretty much matching it one way or another. Werner, of course, is underperforming by at least 5 goals because his xG is 9.72 but he's scored only 5 goals.

2 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Morata in 17/18 season 11 goals and 17 big chances missed. So almost 40% conversation rate. Sorry Timo but you are the worst...

Hard to argue with the numbers if you just throw them out like that but the funny thing is, Morata's trajectory back then isn't too different from Werner's right now. Morata started with 9 goals in his first 14 Premier League appearances and then scored only 2 more goals in his remaining 17 appearances that season. Werner started with 4 goals in his first 8 Premier League appearances and then scored just 1 goal in the subsequent 19 appearances. 

As pointed out by @MoroccanBlue, think people have genuinely forgotten how awful Morata got after his bright start at the club, how awful he became when things started to go against him. He was spending more time on the ground, complaining about refereeing decisions, bitching about everything else than getting at the end of chances, never mind missing or scoring them. Werner, for all his stupid brainfart in front of goal, at least still keeps going, still tries to make a difference via other means even if he's not scoring (hasn't hit a consistent level in terms of performances yet but that's another debate). The saving grace with the big chances missed stat you pointed out is that Werner has a lot of them and that he would eventually find the composure, that clinical edge to convert most of them, hopefully sooner rather than later.

[OneMoSalah 8,883]

5 hours ago, Jason said:

Is this a contest to you? 🤣

The xG numbers paint a slightly different story to the stats above, especially for Bamford. Bamford's league xG for the season is 13.92 and with 13 goals scored, he's pretty much matching it one way or another. Werner, of course, is underperforming by at least 5 goals because his xG is 9.72 but he's scored only 5 goals.

Hard to argue with the numbers if you just throw them out like that but the funny thing is, Morata's trajectory back then isn't too different from Werner's right now. Morata started with 9 goals in his first 14 Premier League appearances and then scored only 2 more goals in his remaining 17 appearances that season. Werner started with 4 goals in his first 8 Premier League appearances and then scored just 1 goal in the subsequent 19 appearances. 

As pointed out by @MoroccanBlue, think people have genuinely forgotten how awful Morata got after his bright start at the club, how awful he became when things started to go against him. He was spending more time on the ground, complaining about refereeing decisions, bitching about everything else than getting at the end of chances, never mind missing or scoring them. Werner, for all his stupid brainfart in front of goal, at least still keeps going, still tries to make a difference via other means even if he's not scoring (hasn't hit a consistent level in terms of performances yet but that's another debate). The saving grace with the big chances missed stat you pointed out is that Werner has a lot of them and that he would eventually find the composure, that clinical edge to convert most of them, hopefully sooner rather than later.

Morata declined after a pretty decent and consistent 4 months tbf though where he hit the back of the net consistently. I get its not fair to compare the two players as they are different sorts of strikers but ultimately, in the first 4 months even without the goals Morata’s profile and technical skillset gave the team a lot more as any player with that more varied skillset would. Watch that game v Man United where Morata was excellent and then also the game v Stoke where he scored a hattrick. His all round play was excellent. 

One thing that I think Timo has that is similar to Morata though is that I cant help the feeling that we cannot solely be reliant on him as our main goalscorer. Like Leipzig were. The evidence is there. I don’t know if its a pressure thing or what but he’s going to miss big chances, as someone already pointed out which means we need a top CF who can be reliable every week. He wont get as many clear cut ones as he did in the Bundesliga either as the games are a bit more competitive here and teams tend to sit off us a lot more than RB Leipzig.

Obviously Haaland is the pipe dream but difficult. Alternatives need to be found. I mean after those first 14 games I am sure everyone felt that we were overly reliant on Morata already when he came in and needed an alternative/another source of goals. And that was a team that had Hazard, Pedro and Fabregas who all were impressive the season  before but adding a regular and reliable goalscorer is paramount this summer.

The fouls things yes that was annoying to a different level with Morata but Werner is also prone to going down for “soft fouls”, when you’d hope he would realise that you have to be a bit stronger than that in the PL. Hopefully will come next season. I am a bit surprised because I would of hoped for someone coming from the Bundesliga he would of been anticipating it a bit more and expecting it. 

Stating that at least Werner “keeps going” is lowering the barometer a bit though. It shouldn’t be something that is by choice and when players aren’t playing well most of them, they tend to keep trying, although this can lead to them over complicating simple things etc so it doesn’t necessarily reflect or mean you will get quality either. When he doesn’t play well yes his running may open up space for others but his final ball is very meh and as we have alluded to before, can he be more aggressive in 1 v 1s if he’s playing odd that left side and create more openings? Or take men on? Also its clear Tuchel was very frustrated with him tactically v Everton, the positional thing that was heard and his general reaction to some of the chances he hasn’t converted already here, I wouldn’t say Tuchel will be fully satisfied with this notion that he at least “keeps trying” so I don’t know. 

All things being said Morata and Werner will have a pretty long combined sitters compilations video if anyone ever wants to make one 😂

Edited March 9, 2021 by OneMoSalah

[Jase 43,479]

55 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Morata declined after a pretty decent and consistent 4 months tbf though where he hit the back of the net consistently. I get its not fair to compare the two players as they are different sorts of strikers but ultimately, in the first 4 months even without the goals Morata’s profile and technical skillset gave the team a lot more as any player with that more varied skillset would. Watch that game v Man United where Morata was excellent and then also the game v Stoke where he scored a hattrick. His all round play was excellent. 

And yet, look what happened with him...

55 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

One thing that I think Timo has that is similar to Morata though is that I cant help the feeling that we cannot solely be reliant on him as our main goalscorer. Like Leipzig were. The evidence is there. I don’t know if its a pressure thing or what but he’s going to miss big chances, as someone already pointed out which means we need a top CF who can be reliable every week. He wont get as many clear cut ones as he did in the Bundesliga either as the games are a bit more competitive here and teams tend to sit off us a lot more than RB Leipzig.

Even if Werner had been clinical this season, we can't be reliant on him just to score the goals. No team that wants to be successful in the Premier League and even the Champions League can be reliant on just one main scorer. The fact that (a) Jorginho is our joint top scorer in the league with 6 penalty goals and (b) despite Werner missing chances for fun but is still our second top scorer in the league and third overall in the team in the team say it all.

55 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

The fouls things yes that was annoying to a different level with Morata but Werner is also prone to going down for “soft fouls”, when you’d hope he would realise that you have to be a bit stronger than that in the PL. Hopefully will come next season. I am a bit surprised because I would of hoped for someone coming from the Bundesliga he would of been anticipating it a bit more and expecting it. 

There's probably been one or two incidents but don't think there's been anything major or any frustrating moments with Werner on this.

55 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Stating that at least Werner “keeps going” is lowering the barometer a bit though. It shouldn’t be something that is by choice and when players aren’t playing well most of them, they tend to keep trying, although this can lead to them over complicating simple things etc so it doesn’t necessarily reflect or mean you will get quality either. When he doesn’t play well yes his running may open up space for others but his final ball is very meh and as we have alluded to before, can he be more aggressive in 1 v 1s if he’s playing odd that left side and create more openings? Or take men on?

My point with that is at least he is still showing the right mindset, the right attitude to try and help the team even when things are going shit elsewhere for him. That's the basis for any player, no? Last thing we want from a player is the player just ghosting around and not doing anything at all if things are going shit in other aspects for him. And I brought this up because of the comparison others brought up with Morata and Torres. People seem to have forgotten how awful those two generally were once things started to go downhill for them. Otherwise, agree with the lack of consistency at the moment.

55 minutes ago, OneMoSalah said:

Also its clear Tuchel was very frustrated with him tactically v Everton, the positional thing that was heard and his general reaction to some of the chances he hasn’t converted already here, I wouldn’t say Tuchel will be fully satisfied with this notion that he at least “keeps trying” so I don’t know. 

As bad as it may look, Werner isn't the first player to get shouted at by the manager for not doing something right and won't be the last.

I don't know if you're just nit-picking at this point but how do you expect him to react to his missed chances? Scream in agony? Kick the post in anger? Punch the ground in frustration? I am no expert in how strikers are supposed to react when they miss chances but using normal life circumstance scenarios, I would say everyone has their own way when it comes to dealing with frustration, anger etc.

If Werner has been as hopeless as you're making him out to be, then I don't think Tuchel would have played him as much as he has or he would have subbed him off a lot more often. Sure, you can point to the likes of Ziyech, Pulisic not being in form but he could have easily given them the playing time to regain their form from the start if he wanted to. If Tuchel was really frustrated with Werner yesterday, he would have taken him off way earlier, way before the 90th minute.

[Azul 1,615]

5 goals scored in 27 PL games, in which he started 95% of them, yet people still choose to defend him. If this was Tammy missing those chances, then they'd have a different tune.

P.S. I don't rate Tammy.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Azul

[DDA 9,924]

I know its only headline sensationalism but talks of him quitting the club early are already surfacing... if the club were to perform a miracle and pull off the transfer of Haaland, I wouldn't be surprised if he looked at leaving.

[Jase 43,479]

56 minutes ago, Azul said:

5 goals scored in 27 PL games, in which he started 95% of them, yet people still choose to defend him. If this was Tammy missing those chances, then they'd have a different tune.

P.S. I don't rate Tammy.

Look, scoring only 5 goals and missing all those chances in 20+ appearances are bad. Don't think anyone will disagree with that but there's a difference in defending Werner for missing chances and defending Werner for his general performance/play/use, which seems to be the more common discussion around here and I know you have your views of it but that's another debate.