Will the academy eventually help us dominate English football?

[chelseafan26 293]

5 hours ago, LDN Blue said:

Yeah I don't care much for the argument of established stars anymore. Particularly a forward's ability and youth level is very hard to judge just from reserves. We've had multiple top scorers in the past like Borini (who was scoring for fun) end up at Sunderland at the pinnacle of their careers. Other names including Carlton Cole, Lalkovic. There's no saying Solanke will be scoring for fun elsewhere, we see Bamford not being in favour of any of the PL loan clubs he's gone out to. 

My issue is simply, we're a hypocritical club. We're so invested into the success of our academy but their use has been scarce. Our managers are given a mandate, supposedly, by Roman to be blooding the youth in but then are given players signed for exceptional sums to keep their place.

We're actually in a good stage now for them to come in. With players like Ramires gone; Mikel, Oscar, Terry, Pato and Falcao heading out; Fabregas, Willian, Azpilicueta in their later 20's, we have a good opportunity to balance this squad for once. Signings are needed, hence players like Radja linked, but the 'squad' player have to start coming from these multiple Youth Cup winners now.

I'm under no illusion we'll be loaning 50+ players out again next season. It keeps us profitable on all levels of football, but the winners have be rewarded with first team opportunities. It's one thing to do it close-season when there's nothing to play for, it's another throwing them on in a game that matters. Like an article I posted before stated about Potchettino, he wasn't afraid to bring 'fringe' HG players on like Mason when they were chasing the game.

THIS.

[xPetrCechx 13,570]

Guus says the demands of playing at Chelsea are very high and so it's not easy for Academy players to step up... #CFC

...but he adds he likes to have youngsters involved in his training sessions and he thinks some have a good chance of making it. #CFC

[OhForAGreavsie 6,057]

On 28/04/2016 at 2:17 AM, LDN Blue said:

Yeah I don't care much for the argument of established stars anymore. Particularly a forward's ability and youth level is very hard to judge just from reserves. We've had multiple top scorers in the past like Borini (who was scoring for fun) end up at Sunderland at the pinnacle of their careers. Other names including Carlton Cole, Lalkovic. There's no saying Solanke will be scoring for fun elsewhere, we see Bamford not being in favour of any of the PL loan clubs he's gone out to. 

My issue is simply, we're a hypocritical club. We're so invested into the success of our academy but their use has been scarce. Our managers are given a mandate, supposedly, by Roman to be blooding the youth in but then are given players signed for exceptional sums to keep their place.

We're actually in a good stage now for them to come in. With players like Ramires gone; Mikel, Oscar, Terry, Pato and Falcao heading out; Fabregas, Willian, Azpilicueta in their later 20's, we have a good opportunity to balance this squad for once. Signings are needed, hence players like Radja linked, but the 'squad' player have to start coming from these multiple Youth Cup winners now.

I'm under no illusion we won't be loaning 50+ players out again next season. It keeps us profitable on all levels of football, but the winners have be rewarded with first team opportunities. It's one thing to do it close-season when there's nothing to play for, it's another throwing them on in a game that matters. Like an article I posted before stated about Potchettino, he wasn't afraid to bring 'fringe' HG players on like Mason when they were chasing the game.

Who was, or was not, selected to play for Tottenham is a complete non argument. Neither you nor I know whether the players in our youth team would have been selected by Pochitino if they were at Spurs and neither do we know if the Spurs lads would have been selected if they were here. I have my thoughts and of course you do too but since we can't actually know, the Tottenham situation is proof of nothing either way.

Contrary to what you appear to be saying, every single manager in the world, bar none, makes a judgement about young players before giving them games. For every Spurs youngster selected by Pochitino, there must be half a dozen he has not selected. By your argument, the only way to know if development level players can cut it is to pick them. Are you therefore going to lambaste the Spurs boss because there are so many youngsters to whom he has not given a chance? The notion that the only way to judge a young player is to give him games is a recurrent, but stupid, one. Youngsters have to earn a chance and when they get it they have to do enough to earn another.

It is entirely evident that the club wants to promote from the academy but few have earned minutes, and none has made the most of them. Yet. My patience is not exhausted. If there are youngsters who, like you, have lost patience then by all means allow them to leave.

[Tomo 21,751]

2 hours ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Who was, or was not, selected to play for Tottenham is a complete non argument. Neither you nor I know whether the players in our youth team would have been selected by Pochitino if they were at Spurs and neither do we know if the Spurs lads would have been selected if they were here. I have my thoughts and of course you do too but since we can't actually know, the Tottenham situation is proof of nothing either way.

Contrary to what you appear to be saying, every single manager in the world, bar none, makes a judgement about young players before giving them games. For every Spurs youngster selected by Pochitino, there must be half a dozen he has not selected. By your argument, the only way to know if development level players can cut it is to pick them. Are you therefore going to lambast the Spurs boss because there are so many he has not played? The notion that the only way to judge a young player is to give him games is a recurrent, but stupid, one. Youngsters have to earn a chance and when they get it they have to do enough to earn another.

It is entirely evident that the club wants to promote from the academy but few have earned minutes, and none has made the most of them. Yet. My patience is not exhausted. If there are youngsters who, like you, have lost patience then by all means allow them to leave.

Thats l confuses me the hell aswell, Wilkins kept saying in the youth cup "throw them on see what they do" made me thankful he never got more than two games as manager for us.

Coaches can get an idea on who deserves a chance at a higher level and who doesn't like you said, but imagine if we gave Bamford, Mancienne to name two extended runs in the team because "well we won't know unless we test them"? I mean my god we would have wasted so much time.

[OhForAGreavsie 6,057]

18 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Thats l confuses me the hell aswell, Wilkins kept saying in the youth cup "throw them on see what they do" made me thankful he never got more than two games as manager for us.

Coaches can get an idea on who deserves a chance at a higher level and who doesn't like you said, but imagine if we gave Bamford, Mancienne to name two extended runs in the team because "well we won't know unless we test them"? I mean my god we would have wasted so much time.

Yes, Butch wound me up too with his constant repetition of that theme. All the more so because he clearly knows that judgements and selections have to be made. The huge majority of players who join a professional academy never get a sniff of the first team. Somebody is clearly judging them and selecting them out. Butch knows this better than we do so why he droned on so boringly about the chuck 'em in idea I just don't know.

Further, based on his contributions in the commentary booth, Ray's ideas on the game seem entirely outdated. Perhaps others see it differently, but I can't say I was surprised to hear him say that he feels he won't go back into football management.

[Muzchap 8,966]

On 29 April 2016 at 9:34 PM, OhForAGreavsie said:

Yes, Butch wound me up too with his constant repetition of that theme. All the more so because he clearly knows that judgements and selections have to be made. The huge majority of players who join a professional academy never get a sniff of the first team. Somebody is clearly judging them and selecting them out. Butch knows this better than we do so why he droned on so boringly about the chuck 'em in idea I just don't know.

Further, based on his contributions in the commentary booth, Ray's ideas on the game seem entirely outdated. Perhaps others see it differently, but I can't say I was surprised to hear him say that he feels he won't go back into football management.

The problem is there are no absolutes in this. Sometimes a player will shine given a chance. Kane at Millwall - not many watching him at Millwall would correlate that player with the player we see before us today... Raheem Sterling, has gone downhill faster than Eddie the Eagle (great film btw), it worked for him at Loserpool, but hasn't for City IMHO. 

I kinda do agree with Ray on this - sometimes, you just need to chuck the kids in and sink/swim - at least then they have been given an opportunity, which is all an Acadamy player wants - if they blow it, such is life, even our expensive signings have a propensity to blow it  so there should be no shame there  

yeah Butch is cracking on in years now and it's easy to want things to be like they were in the old days, but 4-4-2 has pretty much gone now in favour of other more exotic forms of formation. But I still love teams that play with width and fast wingers - wish we would play like that?

[Fernando 6,585]

I think the problem lies in the manager we appoint. 

You want youth but you go for Mourinho.... 

You want youth but now you get Conte.... Now I'm speaking as if conte is the same case as our past manager. To be fair I truly don't know but I do know he left juventus because the board lacked desire to buy his target..... Sounds similar to a special individual. 

So to me this is the case. We want youth but we don't get the manager that would do it. 

[communicate 2,703]

IMHO playing youth player is a conundrum.

You want to play more academy player but you want to be title contender. You want to play more youth but you want deep senior squad.

Playing youth especially straight from academy imo is a big gamble. Maybe there are only three title winning manager that really play a lot of youth, SAF, Wenger and maybe Van Gaal 

Everybody said Wenger is a perennial loser but Arsenal always promote their youth player. Iwobi,Coquelin, bellerin, wilshere,etc. They haven't challenged for title for ages but they always promote their youth.

The same thing with Van Gaal. He sold di maria,chicarito and van persie. Now  Rashford,Lingard, Bruno mensah has more chance to play but they are clearly not a title contender.

SAF is the only outlier, but he is like the Godfatther of Manchester United. He can do whatever he want. Howevery, the last time he won EPL, he bought Van Persie. By doing that he sacrificed Welbeck growth.

 

IMO, playing youth is a gamble. You need to hire manager that trust youth but at the same time you have to be ready to be 2nd fiddle team for a while. Then if luck is on your side, they will turn into a world class player  and you will dominate for a long time (Barcelona) , if not you will become 2nd fiddle team for a long time (Arsenal)

 

 

[chelseafan26 293]

31 minutes ago, communicate said:

IMHO playing youth player is a conundrum.

You want to play more academy player but you want to be title contender. You want to play more youth but you want deep senior squad.

Playing youth especially straight from academy imo is a big gamble. Maybe there are only three title winning manager that really play a lot of youth, SAF, Wenger and maybe Van Gaal 

Everybody said Wenger is a perennial loser but Arsenal always promote their youth player. Iwobi,Coquelin, bellerin, wilshere,etc. They haven't challenged for title for ages but they always promote their youth.

The same thing with Van Gaal. He sold di maria,chicarito and van persie. Now  Rashford,Lingard, Bruno mensah has more chance to play but they are clearly not a title contender.

SAF is the only outlier, but he is like the Godfatther of Manchester United. He can do whatever he want. Howevery, the last time he won EPL, he bought Van Persie. By doing that he sacrificed Welbeck growth.

 

IMO, playing youth is a gamble. You need to hire manager that trust youth but at the same time you have to be ready to be 2nd fiddle team for a while. Then if luck is on your side, they will turn into a world class player  and you will dominate for a long time (Barcelona) , if not you will become 2nd fiddle team for a long time (Arsenal)

 

 

I disagree a little on Wenger and Arsenal. Arsenal are not title contenders because of wenger's pathetic transfer dealing, not because of his youth policy. The youth has given arsenal some real gems like Bellerin and Coq. The problem is that even now wenger refuses to acknowledge the problem - A world class striker and a world class CB pairing. They have giroud upfront and koscienly is defending for 2 people at the back. Thats their problem. Blaming it on youth is incorrect. 

Look at spurs, They promoted youth and are today title pretenders. Kane, Alli, Rose, walker, Mason.

But i do agree that "instant" success and youth integration dont go hand in hand. But I am a regular at SB and I can vouch for a majority of 42,000 people saying that they will happily take a 2/3 year exile if it means having youth integration, style of play, identity and stability. 

[lucio 5,418]

4 hours ago, communicate said:

IMHO playing youth player is a conundrum.

You want to play more academy player but you want to be title contender. You want to play more youth but you want deep senior squad.

Playing youth especially straight from academy imo is a big gamble. Maybe there are only three title winning manager that really play a lot of youth, SAF, Wenger and maybe Van Gaal 

Everybody said Wenger is a perennial loser but Arsenal always promote their youth player. Iwobi,Coquelin, bellerin, wilshere,etc. They haven't challenged for title for ages but they always promote their youth.

The same thing with Van Gaal. He sold di maria,chicarito and van persie. Now  Rashford,Lingard, Bruno mensah has more chance to play but they are clearly not a title contender.

SAF is the only outlier, but he is like the Godfatther of Manchester United. He can do whatever he want. Howevery, the last time he won EPL, he bought Van Persie. By doing that he sacrificed Welbeck growth.

 

IMO, playing youth is a gamble. You need to hire manager that trust youth but at the same time you have to be ready to be 2nd fiddle team for a while. Then if luck is on your side, they will turn into a world class player  and you will dominate for a long time (Barcelona) , if not you will become 2nd fiddle team for a long time (Arsenal)

 

 

we don't need to play youth straight from the academy

we have the likes of christensen, who has put in star performances vs bayern, city, juventus

[LDN Blue 7,903]

6 hours ago, communicate said:

IMO, playing youth is a gamble. You need to hire manager that trust youth but at the same time you have to be ready to be 2nd fiddle team for a while. Then if luck is on your side, they will turn into a world class player  and you will dominate for a long time (Barcelona) , if not you will become 2nd fiddle team for a long time (Arsenal)

Yeah but to be fair, no-one expects these academy players to be first team players straight away and winning the title. But they should be back up choices at least and considered as such, no point in just having them train with the first team, they need exposure too. Instead of Pato we use Traore, instead of Oscar Loftus-Cheek, instead of Pedro we use Musonda etc. Because we're going to make first-team signings anyway. 

Also with Van Gaal at United, it's not he chose to use youth players instead of what he has it was more he was forced. Fair play to Rashford and co for stepping up, but he's only had to rely on them because he spent a ridiculous amount of money on players like Depay and couldn't utilise world class talent like Di Maria etc.

[communicate 2,703]

On 5/2/2016 at 9:09 PM, LDN Blue said:

Yeah but to be fair, no-one expects these academy players to be first team players straight away and winning the title. But they should be back up choices at least and considered as such, no point in just having them train with the first team, they need exposure too. Instead of Pato we use Traore, instead of Oscar Loftus-Cheek, instead of Pedro we use Musonda etc. Because we're going to make first-team signings anyway. 

Also with Van Gaal at United, it's not he chose to use youth players instead of what he has it was more he was forced. Fair play to Rashford and co for stepping up, but he's only had to rely on them because he spent a ridiculous amount of money on players like Depay and couldn't utilise world class talent like Di Maria etc.

It is absolutely fine to do that when you are not contending for title. Again,  back to Epl last 5 winner.(city, Chelsea, leciester, united)   I don't think we can say any of them really play a lot of youth

[Captain Ahmed 528]

The academy of Chelsea is a treasure. For sure, Conte will not integrate all these young players in the squad. 

[GodZola 630]

On 29/04/2016 at 6:51 PM, OhForAGreavsie said:

Who was, or was not, selected to play for Tottenham is a complete non argument. Neither you nor I know whether the players in our youth team would have been selected by Pochitino if they were at Spurs and neither do we know if the Spurs lads would have been selected if they were here. I have my thoughts and of course you do too but since we can't actually know, the Tottenham situation is proof of nothing either way.

Contrary to what you appear to be saying, every single manager in the world, bar none, makes a judgement about young players before giving them games. For every Spurs youngster selected by Pochitino, there must be half a dozen he has not selected. By your argument, the only way to know if development level players can cut it is to pick them. Are you therefore going to lambaste the Spurs boss because there are so many youngsters to whom he has not given a chance? The notion that the only way to judge a young player is to give him games is a recurrent, but stupid, one. Youngsters have to earn a chance and when they get it they have to do enough to earn another.

It is entirely evident that the club wants to promote from the academy but few have earned minutes, and none has made the most of them. Yet. My patience is not exhausted. If there are youngsters who, like you, have lost patience then by all means allow them to leave.

IMHO those half a dozen players are irrelevant that you mention Pochettino has not selected, the fundamental point here is that he has had the bollocks to select young players and come within a whisker of winning the title by giving them all a chance that they would not of got at Chelsea or most clubs. Let's take Dele Alli as an example, he's out performing just about every player in the PL - if he was on our books he'd be on loan somewhere & his talent probably lost for a few seasons if not for good, he is now going to the Euro's with every chance of being the next superstar. It's not a one off for Pochettino either, he was doing the exact same things at Southampton, left them in a great position & they made millions from selling young players he had introduced. (Yes without question my idea of our new appointment)

My point being that if Pochettino was our manager you can be sure there would of been several of our promising youngsters introduced this season, what's absolutely mind numbing about the last 10 or more games is that they are all dead rubber and what a better time to introduce them, could they really do any worse than the slow & cumbersome Mikel or the one in ten performance from Oscar likewise Dave or Ivanovich at left & right back respectively just to name a few?! Those 10 or so games with no pressure would be invaluable experience for next season, you would also find them out without any damage, admittedly there's a lot to be said about talent however they also have to have that hunger, desire, aggression, self belief and that gritty willingness to succeed.

Which brings me on to the thread, most won't agree but I'm all for the club to go down an entirely different route next season, it's time for patience & I hate to say it but we should follow the Spurs model & now start introducing some of the wealth of talent we have in our ranks, the hierarchy should sell all those unhappy & dead wood players that have been taking up spaces for too long (reinvest in a few quality players) give some of those spaces to our talented young players, yep we're more than likely to have a couple of season's without winning anything however sooner rather than later these kids will turn in to gems - it's my belief that you don't win back to back European trophies with out having something? Notwithstanding the fact that these lads have grown up together, they know each other inside out, they will have that bond & a team spirit we haven't witnessed since our spine has long since gone.

Unfortunately it'll probably be the same old next season with the Conte being bought players he doesn't want, those he wants out will remain and an objective of top 4 minimum rendering introducing youth futile! The hierarchy are consistent I will give them that......90 odd quid for a new shirt - talk about fleecing the fans after the worst shitty season!

 

[Tomo 21,751]

On 01/05/2016 at 11:22 AM, Muzchap said:

The problem is there are no absolutes in this. Sometimes a player will shine given a chance. Kane at Millwall - not many watching him at Millwall would correlate that player with the player we see before us today... Raheem Sterling, has gone downhill faster than Eddie the Eagle (great film btw), it worked for him at Loserpool, but hasn't for City IMHO. 

I kinda do agree with Ray on this - sometimes, you just need to chuck the kids in and sink/swim - at least then they have been given an opportunity, which is all an Acadamy player wants - if they blow it, such is life, even our expensive signings have a propensity to blow it  so there should be no shame there  

yeah Butch is cracking on in years now and it's easy to want things to be like they were in the old days, but 4-4-2 has pretty much gone now in favour of other more exotic forms of formation. But I still love teams that play with width and fast wingers - wish we would play like that?

Bit harsh on Sterling, first season at 20 years old, he will be a fantastic player.

And that isn't the case for me, when I was a teenager, their was a group of about 30-40 of us that played football up the park almost every day (obviously not every one was out every day but that was how many came up regularly), Wembley, matches, head and Vols etc, two players stood out, both of which has trials for Plymouth one even making a couple of appearances (although he fell back in oblivion), but if every person in our group was told two of you will be pro footballers when you're older, everyone to a man (well boy at the time ) would have said those two, and if anyone said otherwise then they were quite simply trolling.

Which brings me to the "throw them in see if they sink or swim" argument, if a group of teenagers can spot the most talented players who have a chance of getting somewhere, thensurely highly qualified coaches will know who in our academy have the potential to succeed and who are complete write offs, and that's before we factor in the data they have access to in the modern day.