Will the academy eventually help us dominate English football?

[LDN Blue 7,903]

14 minutes ago, DYC. said:

Thing is, the youngsters aren't nearly as good as fans make them out to be.

It's a funny thing we have at Chelsea though, most fans will be the first to give their academy players all the time and patience they require but our fans seem to be under this illusion it's the players we have. Yeah not all youth players are destined to make it and we've certainly done well in finding a lot of those players more suitable clubs, Van Aanholt at Sunderland comes to mind. Hell Robert Huth is about to win his second PL medal after he got one with Chelsea in '05. Agreed about the potential of Christensen & Musonda, more to the former as I haven't followed the young Belgian's career. 

The good thing is (to an extent) it's not just a Chelsea problem per se. It's a systemic problem in English football that severely lacks any real competition for academies, I'm baffled why we're still yet to even trail the B team system but I guess there would be more opposition from the Football League than anyone else.  

[CHOULO19 24,332]

2 hours ago, Tomo said:

Well we have a three point advantage on 11th, i think we will do enough for top half although granted top 7 is our of reach now.

And I'm sorry but you've twisted what I said about the youth, I never said we shouldn't play any, what I might have said is we shouldn't go overboard, which I stand by, and by overboard I mean more than 3-4 in one given lineup, part of the beauty of promoting young players is they that come in and play with "the men" so to speak, playing too many completely defeats the object and means they might aswell still be playing U21 football.

Sorry, I honestly didn't mean to twist what you said, but that is genuinely my recollection of the debate. 

So, do you think we should play more young players than we have? And I don't mean  start the U21 XI, but at a bare minimum, for me, we should be starting Traore, Kenedey and Miazga every match, in addition of course to RLC. Have one or two from the U21/19s on the bench and give them cameos. Don't think that's too much to ask for at all... 

[DYC. 7,542]

Just now, LDN Blue said:

It's a funny thing we have at Chelsea though, most fans will be the first to give their academy players all the time and patience they require but our fans seem to be under this illusion it's the players we have. Yeah not all youth players are destined to make it and we've certainly done well in finding a lot of those players more suitable clubs, Van Aanholt at Sunderland comes to mind. Hell Robert Huth is about to win his second PL medal after he got one with Chelsea in '05. Agreed about the potential of Christensen & Musonda, more to the former as I haven't followed the young Belgian's career. 

The good thing is (to an extent) it's not just a Chelsea problem per se. It's a systemic problem in English football that severely lacks any real competition for academies, I'm baffled why we're still yet to even trail the B team system but I guess there would be more opposition from the Football League than anyone else.  

That first part is just a thing fans say. It's like in real life when you think or like to believe you'd step in if someone got mugged or something, only to do nothing when it actually happens.

Remember Bruma? After the initial excitement of him being the future John Terry, I didn't think he'd be more than a PL midtable level defender. It took him a while but he's been making big strides this season, most notably impressing against Atletico and against Utd earlier. He might end up playing at a pretty high level though that remains to be seen.

And don't forget good ol' Jackie Cork. He's done well for himself. Decent player.

Yeah, they don't seem to be in the mood to make any changes. No one seems to care with all the financial succes.

But on a more positive note, English talents do seem to be thriving more nowadays. I could be wrong though.

[Stats 6,980]

On 20/04/2016 at 3:46 PM, DYC. said:

40% is generous, LDN.

Youth trophies are pretty much irrelevant. And they become a whole lot less important when no one breaks through. It should be about development. A team like Ajax for example play with youngsters in the first team, very young players at u-21 level and some go out on loan. And that leads to weakened youth teams.

Completely agree with the last part. Thing is, the youngsters aren't nearly as good as fans make them out to be. Ask any fan of any club at any time and they'll tell you there are a couple or even a group of youngsters good enough to make the first team. It's not a coincidence. It's fans being fans.

While I do think Chelsea have some real talent, the great majority won't make it. I have hope for Christensen and Musonda. If not at Chelsea, I'd say they'll make it elsewhere (top level football). The likes of Ake, RLC, Boga, Solanke are up in the air for me. The rest.... no.

You are right but it shows that if you integrate youth players with first team players, it can work. Can you believe for instance that our youth team beat United's youth team 5-1 in the FAYC at their place and both Rashford and Fosu-Mensah played the whole game. They both have been integrated into the first team and do not look out of place at all. Abraham has been much more prolific at youth level than Rashford however United integrate him into the first team and he prob will have a better career. You swap the two players and Abraham might just be where Rashford is right now, vice versa.

 

[Tomo 21,681]

On 20/04/2016 at 4:27 PM, CHOULO19 said:

Sorry, I honestly didn't mean to twist what you said, but that is genuinely my recollection of the debate. 

So, do you think we should play more young players than we have? And I don't mean  start the U21 XI, but at a bare minimum, for me, we should be starting Traore, Kenedey and Miazga every match, in addition of course to RLC. Have one or two from the U21/19s on the bench and give them cameos. Don't think that's too much to ask for at all... 

No need to apologise, I didn't mean to say twisted just had a long day.

Maybe the cameos should have been done more but for me Guus has handled the other three well.

[The Mak 4,459]

No.

My short answer is that If we didn't give talents like Lukaku, KDB and Bertrand a fair run in the team before shipping them out, then our youth has no chance in hell of dominating anything.

On a positive note, this mainly revolved around Mourinho's 'get the title ASAP and fuck the future' policy. A few may bleed into the first team in the coming years if Conte decides it, but it also has a lot to do with the board's mentality towards wanting to win trophies vs. wanting the academy to pay off...

[DYC. 7,542]

Just now, Stats said:

You are right but it shows that if you integrate youth players with first team players, it can work. Can you believe for instance that our youth team beat United's youth team 5-1 in the FAYC at their place and both Rashford and Fosu-Mensah played the whole game. They both have been integrated into the first team and do not look out of place at all. Abraham has been much more prolific at youth level than Rashford however United integrate him into the first team and he prob will have a better career. You swap the two players and Abraham might just be where Rashford is right now, vice versa.

 

Does winning the game matter though? I'd rather have a team with one, two, three players in the team good enough for Chelsea, surrounded by 'crap' and not winning trophies than a succesful youth team with no one realistically fit for Chelsea.

African NTs for example enjoy some levels of succes at youth levels but most are crap at pro level.

[bellion 170]

The integration of youth players into the first team and academy is a bloody over rated matter.  It will be a breakthrough if more than one youth player can make in the first team on a regular basis every few years.

Buying quality players is the Chelsea way and there should be no diversion of that.  Trying to be cheapskates and using the academy as an excuse caused this season to implode.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

Quote

 

Chelsea kids are seeing through club's flawed youth policy as Domingos Quina's move to West Ham shows

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3556540/Chelsea-kids-seeing-club-s-flawed-youth-policy-Domingos-Quina-s-West-Ham-shows.html

 

Great article demonstrating the attitudes wrong in the academy and criticising Emelano's comments re Tottenham's policy.

Quote

 

Attempting to deflect from Chelsea's poor record on youth production — for themselves, of course, because they always seem to do very well for other clubs — Emenalo turned his attention to the system at Tottenham.

Yet what of Ryan Mason, who Emenalo appears to have overlooked? He may regard him, like Carroll, as a fringe player. But he's a fringe player who made 37 appearances for Tottenham last season, and 25 in this campaign when the club are chasing their first league title since 1961; he's a fringe player who has played enough to have won an England call-up and earn his first cap; he's a fringe player who started against Chelsea on November 29; and he's a fringe player who was born in Enfield and joined Tottenham's academy at the age of eight.

Carroll, meanwhile, has featured in 29 Tottenham games this season, mainly as a substitute. Yet look at his Chelsea equivalent, Ruben Loftus-Cheek. He has played only 15 times in this campaign, with seven starts.

That isn't solely Mourinho's responsibility, either. Loftus-Cheek started one game for Guus Hiddink, against Milton Keynes Dons, before April, when the caretaker-manager declared Chelsea had nothing to play for and began fielding youth.

 

Can't disagree with a word of this. 

Quote

 

Chelsea, and Emenalo, are expert at diverting the blame to a succession of managers, when it is the pressure from above that stunts development at Chelsea. 

Antonio Conte will be given the same contrary instruction as his predecessors: play the kids but win the title, and he will know the consequences of failure, too.

And that's why Chelsea are suddenly losing teenage prospects to West Ham: because not even the kids are quite as daft as Emenalo thinks.

 

And this part right there shows exactly why I wholeheartedly disagree with the title of this thread.

[Gappy 130]

I think the problem of our Youth Academy was we have too many kids to push for a first team.

If we only have 1-2 kids that may became a diamond it may be better.

I believe focus 1-2 kids in first team per season was decent and possible to win the league

But a stupid buying policy still didn't stop buy and buy and buy new young players all the times.

It's too much ... We buying too much youths

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Tomo 21,681]

On 22/04/2016 at 6:57 PM, The Mak said:

No.

My short answer is that If we didn't give talents like Lukaku, KDB and Bertrand a fair run in the team before shipping them out, then our youth has no chance in hell of dominating anything.

On a positive note, this mainly revolved around Mourinho's 'get the title ASAP and fuck the future' policy. A few may bleed into the first team in the coming years if Conte decides it, but it also has a lot to do with the board's mentality towards wanting to win trophies vs. wanting the academy to pay off...

Lukaku would have got a chance but he wanted first choice forward asap, he wasn't and still isn't better than Costa.

Also Bertrand got 38 games in 12/13, and go back on his thread, it was when he got the run in the first team at left back the majority came to the conclusion he will never be better than a squad player, Bertrand is a clear example of a player who was rated more the less he played.

De Bruyne however can't argue with.

But the main point is, is that the academy was always going to be a slow berner (I can't be bothered to quote everyone so I will try and cover as many responses as I can in this post), when Roman took over in 2003 the academy was in a horrendous state, it took years to fix it to a competitive state and the start of the fruits to the investment beginning to show was getting to the YC final in 2008 then going one better in 2010, but there was still a bit of work to do, as shown by the 4-0 humbling in the semis the following year.

One thing the lad said that strikes me is that we have all the big talent in London and surrounding areas, I'm guessing that was something that started when Roman got here, which makes sense, Loftus Cheek signed for Chelsea as a 8 year old, which would have been 2004, Mason Mount (one of the stars of the latest triumph tonight against City) was signed up at 6, in 2005.

We are slowly seeing the start of players coming into the first team, hopefully Ruben builds on the minutes he has got this season and Andreas is a shoe in to return and be a full time member of the squad.

One thing that is a significant difference between our academy teams now and five six years back is its less reliant on the players brought in from abroad, now I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to sign players from over Europe of course it ain't, but the team that won the Uefa youth league every single player is eligible for England, whereas our 2010 youth cup side wouldn't have been half as good without Lalkovic, Mitrovic, Bruma, Conor Clifford, and a HG core is vital to any club, the fact that out local recruitment is building the foundation for dominant youth sides is a very positive sign.

Yes in many ways I can understand the caution, but given the academy has been on an upwards curve for years, the first stage of the academy rebuild was to get it competing, done that, then dominating, done that, the next stage will be to see it start benefiting the first team squad, and with Ruben almost always in the 18 and hopefully Andreas to follow, that's a positive start.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

13 hours ago, Tomo said:

Lukaku would have got a chance but he wanted first choice forward asap, he wasn't and still isn't better than Costa.

Also Bertrand got 38 games in 12/13, and go back on his thread, it was when he got the run in the first team at left back the majority came to the conclusion he will never be better than a squad player, Bertrand is a clear example of a player who was rated more the less he played.

De Bruyne however can't argue with.

Yeah I don't care much for the argument of established stars anymore. Particularly a forward's ability and youth level is very hard to judge just from reserves. We've had multiple top scorers in the past like Borini (who was scoring for fun) end up at Sunderland at the pinnacle of their careers. Other names including Carlton Cole, Lalkovic. There's no saying Solanke will be scoring for fun elsewhere, we see Bamford not being in favour of any of the PL loan clubs he's gone out to. 

My issue is simply, we're a hypocritical club. We're so invested into the success of our academy but their use has been scarce. Our managers are given a mandate, supposedly, by Roman to be blooding the youth in but then are given players signed for exceptional sums to keep their place.

We're actually in a good stage now for them to come in. With players like Ramires gone; Mikel, Oscar, Terry, Pato and Falcao heading out; Fabregas, Willian, Azpilicueta in their later 20's, we have a good opportunity to balance this squad for once. Signings are needed, hence players like Radja linked, but the 'squad' player have to start coming from these multiple Youth Cup winners now.

I'm under no illusion we won't be loaning 50+ players out again next season. It keeps us profitable on all levels of football, but the winners have be rewarded with first team opportunities. It's one thing to do it close-season when there's nothing to play for, it's another throwing them on in a game that matters. Like an article I posted before stated about Potchettino, he wasn't afraid to bring 'fringe' HG players on like Mason when they were chasing the game.

[chelseafan26 293]

5 hours ago, LDN Blue said:

Yeah I don't care much for the argument of established stars anymore. Particularly a forward's ability and youth level is very hard to judge just from reserves. We've had multiple top scorers in the past like Borini (who was scoring for fun) end up at Sunderland at the pinnacle of their careers. Other names including Carlton Cole, Lalkovic. There's no saying Solanke will be scoring for fun elsewhere, we see Bamford not being in favour of any of the PL loan clubs he's gone out to. 

My issue is simply, we're a hypocritical club. We're so invested into the success of our academy but their use has been scarce. Our managers are given a mandate, supposedly, by Roman to be blooding the youth in but then are given players signed for exceptional sums to keep their place.

We're actually in a good stage now for them to come in. With players like Ramires gone; Mikel, Oscar, Terry, Pato and Falcao heading out; Fabregas, Willian, Azpilicueta in their later 20's, we have a good opportunity to balance this squad for once. Signings are needed, hence players like Radja linked, but the 'squad' player have to start coming from these multiple Youth Cup winners now.

I'm under no illusion we'll be loaning 50+ players out again next season. It keeps us profitable on all levels of football, but the winners have be rewarded with first team opportunities. It's one thing to do it close-season when there's nothing to play for, it's another throwing them on in a game that matters. Like an article I posted before stated about Potchettino, he wasn't afraid to bring 'fringe' HG players on like Mason when they were chasing the game.

THIS.

[xPetrCechx 13,546]

Guus says the demands of playing at Chelsea are very high and so it's not easy for Academy players to step up... #CFC

...but he adds he likes to have youngsters involved in his training sessions and he thinks some have a good chance of making it. #CFC

[OhForAGreavsie 5,775]

On 28/04/2016 at 2:17 AM, LDN Blue said:

Yeah I don't care much for the argument of established stars anymore. Particularly a forward's ability and youth level is very hard to judge just from reserves. We've had multiple top scorers in the past like Borini (who was scoring for fun) end up at Sunderland at the pinnacle of their careers. Other names including Carlton Cole, Lalkovic. There's no saying Solanke will be scoring for fun elsewhere, we see Bamford not being in favour of any of the PL loan clubs he's gone out to. 

My issue is simply, we're a hypocritical club. We're so invested into the success of our academy but their use has been scarce. Our managers are given a mandate, supposedly, by Roman to be blooding the youth in but then are given players signed for exceptional sums to keep their place.

We're actually in a good stage now for them to come in. With players like Ramires gone; Mikel, Oscar, Terry, Pato and Falcao heading out; Fabregas, Willian, Azpilicueta in their later 20's, we have a good opportunity to balance this squad for once. Signings are needed, hence players like Radja linked, but the 'squad' player have to start coming from these multiple Youth Cup winners now.

I'm under no illusion we won't be loaning 50+ players out again next season. It keeps us profitable on all levels of football, but the winners have be rewarded with first team opportunities. It's one thing to do it close-season when there's nothing to play for, it's another throwing them on in a game that matters. Like an article I posted before stated about Potchettino, he wasn't afraid to bring 'fringe' HG players on like Mason when they were chasing the game.

Who was, or was not, selected to play for Tottenham is a complete non argument. Neither you nor I know whether the players in our youth team would have been selected by Pochitino if they were at Spurs and neither do we know if the Spurs lads would have been selected if they were here. I have my thoughts and of course you do too but since we can't actually know, the Tottenham situation is proof of nothing either way.

Contrary to what you appear to be saying, every single manager in the world, bar none, makes a judgement about young players before giving them games. For every Spurs youngster selected by Pochitino, there must be half a dozen he has not selected. By your argument, the only way to know if development level players can cut it is to pick them. Are you therefore going to lambaste the Spurs boss because there are so many youngsters to whom he has not given a chance? The notion that the only way to judge a young player is to give him games is a recurrent, but stupid, one. Youngsters have to earn a chance and when they get it they have to do enough to earn another.

It is entirely evident that the club wants to promote from the academy but few have earned minutes, and none has made the most of them. Yet. My patience is not exhausted. If there are youngsters who, like you, have lost patience then by all means allow them to leave.

[Tomo 21,681]

2 hours ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Who was, or was not, selected to play for Tottenham is a complete non argument. Neither you nor I know whether the players in our youth team would have been selected by Pochitino if they were at Spurs and neither do we know if the Spurs lads would have been selected if they were here. I have my thoughts and of course you do too but since we can't actually know, the Tottenham situation is proof of nothing either way.

Contrary to what you appear to be saying, every single manager in the world, bar none, makes a judgement about young players before giving them games. For every Spurs youngster selected by Pochitino, there must be half a dozen he has not selected. By your argument, the only way to know if development level players can cut it is to pick them. Are you therefore going to lambast the Spurs boss because there are so many he has not played? The notion that the only way to judge a young player is to give him games is a recurrent, but stupid, one. Youngsters have to earn a chance and when they get it they have to do enough to earn another.

It is entirely evident that the club wants to promote from the academy but few have earned minutes, and none has made the most of them. Yet. My patience is not exhausted. If there are youngsters who, like you, have lost patience then by all means allow them to leave.

Thats l confuses me the hell aswell, Wilkins kept saying in the youth cup "throw them on see what they do" made me thankful he never got more than two games as manager for us.

Coaches can get an idea on who deserves a chance at a higher level and who doesn't like you said, but imagine if we gave Bamford, Mancienne to name two extended runs in the team because "well we won't know unless we test them"? I mean my god we would have wasted so much time.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,775]

18 minutes ago, Tomo said:

Thats l confuses me the hell aswell, Wilkins kept saying in the youth cup "throw them on see what they do" made me thankful he never got more than two games as manager for us.

Coaches can get an idea on who deserves a chance at a higher level and who doesn't like you said, but imagine if we gave Bamford, Mancienne to name two extended runs in the team because "well we won't know unless we test them"? I mean my god we would have wasted so much time.

Yes, Butch wound me up too with his constant repetition of that theme. All the more so because he clearly knows that judgements and selections have to be made. The huge majority of players who join a professional academy never get a sniff of the first team. Somebody is clearly judging them and selecting them out. Butch knows this better than we do so why he droned on so boringly about the chuck 'em in idea I just don't know.

Further, based on his contributions in the commentary booth, Ray's ideas on the game seem entirely outdated. Perhaps others see it differently, but I can't say I was surprised to hear him say that he feels he won't go back into football management.

[Muzchap 8,966]

On 29 April 2016 at 9:34 PM, OhForAGreavsie said:

Yes, Butch wound me up too with his constant repetition of that theme. All the more so because he clearly knows that judgements and selections have to be made. The huge majority of players who join a professional academy never get a sniff of the first team. Somebody is clearly judging them and selecting them out. Butch knows this better than we do so why he droned on so boringly about the chuck 'em in idea I just don't know.

Further, based on his contributions in the commentary booth, Ray's ideas on the game seem entirely outdated. Perhaps others see it differently, but I can't say I was surprised to hear him say that he feels he won't go back into football management.

The problem is there are no absolutes in this. Sometimes a player will shine given a chance. Kane at Millwall - not many watching him at Millwall would correlate that player with the player we see before us today... Raheem Sterling, has gone downhill faster than Eddie the Eagle (great film btw), it worked for him at Loserpool, but hasn't for City IMHO. 

I kinda do agree with Ray on this - sometimes, you just need to chuck the kids in and sink/swim - at least then they have been given an opportunity, which is all an Acadamy player wants - if they blow it, such is life, even our expensive signings have a propensity to blow it  so there should be no shame there  

yeah Butch is cracking on in years now and it's easy to want things to be like they were in the old days, but 4-4-2 has pretty much gone now in favour of other more exotic forms of formation. But I still love teams that play with width and fast wingers - wish we would play like that?