Will the academy eventually help us dominate English football?

[It's too big 625]

We can easily integrate 2/3 young players, maybe more, but we won't win the league or CL with a team full of them. I would like to see baker, abraham, colkett, palmer, musonda and christensen brought through, but barring those I don't think the other youth players are good enough to be included regularly in the first team squad. We need players with top level experience mixed in too. Bringing RLC through is a great start. If we bring one or two youth players through a season then that would be incredible and viably achievable. 

[CHOULO19 24,332]

A bit off topic @Tomo do you still think that we will 'definitely' finish top half likely in top 7?

Because iirc a bit over a month or so ago, that was your argument for why we shouldn't play A LOT more youth in our matches. Given that we've not picked up many points in the games since and that even the points we did pick up are largely irrelevant since we look set for a bottom half finish, should we in retrospect have given a lot more chances for academy players and should we do so for the remaining matches?

[chelseafan26 293]

6 hours ago, It's too big said:

We can easily integrate 2/3 young players, maybe more, but we won't win the league or CL with a team full of them. I would like to see baker, abraham, colkett, palmer, musonda and christensen brought through, but barring those I don't think the other youth players are good enough to be included regularly in the first team squad. We need players with top level experience mixed in too. Bringing RLC through is a great start. If we bring one or two youth players through a season then that would be incredible and viably achievable. 

RLC, Baker, Abraham, Colkett, Palmer, Musonda, Christensen, thats 7 players right there. I would like to add Ake and Da Silva to that list.

Then we have some real good talents like Solanke and Boga.

8 - 10 players are a LOT. Plus if Conte has half a brain, Traore will be a big part of our future. We have all the ingredients right here. We have some big names deadwood who still have a brilliant market price (Oscar, Pedro, Cesc), we have some other deadwood that can fetch some money too (Cahill, Mikel, Moses, Mvg) and I am sure after the kind of season we have had, Roman will gladly sign a few blank cheques. So we have money, we have the best youth academy in the world, all we need is someone to put it all together. 

[Tomo 21,751]

2 hours ago, CHOULO19 said:

A bit off topic @Tomo do you still think that we will 'definitely' finish top half likely in top 7?

Because iirc a bit over a month or so ago, that was your argument for why we shouldn't play A LOT more youth in our matches. Given that we've not picked up many points in the games since and that even the points we did pick up are largely irrelevant since we look set for a bottom half finish, should we in retrospect have given a lot more chances for academy players and should we do so for the remaining matches?

Well we have a three point advantage on 11th, i think we will do enough for top half although granted top 7 is our of reach now.

And I'm sorry but you've twisted what I said about the youth, I never said we shouldn't play any, what I might have said is we shouldn't go overboard, which I stand by, and by overboard I mean more than 3-4 in one given lineup, part of the beauty of promoting young players is they that come in and play with "the men" so to speak, playing too many completely defeats the object and means they might aswell still be playing U21 football.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

To put quite simply, no. I don't think this academy will help us dominate English football, I don't think even 40% of this academy will ever see the Chelsea first XI. I find it extraordinary that the Chelsea u19s are defending and two-time UEFA Youth League champions & the Chelsea u21s have made it to 7 consecutive FA Youth Cup semi-finals and not a single member of the previous 6 has been able to force his way into the first team. Ruben Loftus-Cheek is flavour of the season, following the footsteps of Aké, McEachran & Kakuta. Musonda, you would imagine, is next in line but none of the aforementioned have been good enough* to make it.

 

* whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean anyway.

[DYC. 7,542]

Just now, LDN Blue said:

To put quite simply, no. I don't think this academy will help us dominate English football, I don't think even 40% of this academy will ever see the Chelsea first XI. I find it extraordinary that the Chelsea u19s are defending and two-time UEFA Youth League champions & the Chelsea u21s have made it to 7 consecutive FA Youth Cup semi-finals and not a single member of the previous 6 has been able to force his way into the first team. Ruben Loftus-Cheek is flavour of the season, following the footsteps of Aké, McEachran & Kakuta. Musonda, you would imagine, is next in line but none of the aforementioned have been good enough* to make it.

 

* whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean anyway.

40% is generous, LDN.

Youth trophies are pretty much irrelevant. And they become a whole lot less important when no one breaks through. It should be about development. A team like Ajax for example play with youngsters in the first team, very young players at u-21 level and some go out on loan. And that leads to weakened youth teams.

Completely agree with the last part. Thing is, the youngsters aren't nearly as good as fans make them out to be. Ask any fan of any club at any time and they'll tell you there are a couple or even a group of youngsters good enough to make the first team. It's not a coincidence. It's fans being fans.

While I do think Chelsea have some real talent, the great majority won't make it. I have hope for Christensen and Musonda. If not at Chelsea, I'd say they'll make it elsewhere (top level football). The likes of Ake, RLC, Boga, Solanke are up in the air for me. The rest.... no.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

14 minutes ago, DYC. said:

Thing is, the youngsters aren't nearly as good as fans make them out to be.

It's a funny thing we have at Chelsea though, most fans will be the first to give their academy players all the time and patience they require but our fans seem to be under this illusion it's the players we have. Yeah not all youth players are destined to make it and we've certainly done well in finding a lot of those players more suitable clubs, Van Aanholt at Sunderland comes to mind. Hell Robert Huth is about to win his second PL medal after he got one with Chelsea in '05. Agreed about the potential of Christensen & Musonda, more to the former as I haven't followed the young Belgian's career. 

The good thing is (to an extent) it's not just a Chelsea problem per se. It's a systemic problem in English football that severely lacks any real competition for academies, I'm baffled why we're still yet to even trail the B team system but I guess there would be more opposition from the Football League than anyone else.  

[CHOULO19 24,332]

2 hours ago, Tomo said:

Well we have a three point advantage on 11th, i think we will do enough for top half although granted top 7 is our of reach now.

And I'm sorry but you've twisted what I said about the youth, I never said we shouldn't play any, what I might have said is we shouldn't go overboard, which I stand by, and by overboard I mean more than 3-4 in one given lineup, part of the beauty of promoting young players is they that come in and play with "the men" so to speak, playing too many completely defeats the object and means they might aswell still be playing U21 football.

Sorry, I honestly didn't mean to twist what you said, but that is genuinely my recollection of the debate. 

So, do you think we should play more young players than we have? And I don't mean  start the U21 XI, but at a bare minimum, for me, we should be starting Traore, Kenedey and Miazga every match, in addition of course to RLC. Have one or two from the U21/19s on the bench and give them cameos. Don't think that's too much to ask for at all... 

[DYC. 7,542]

Just now, LDN Blue said:

It's a funny thing we have at Chelsea though, most fans will be the first to give their academy players all the time and patience they require but our fans seem to be under this illusion it's the players we have. Yeah not all youth players are destined to make it and we've certainly done well in finding a lot of those players more suitable clubs, Van Aanholt at Sunderland comes to mind. Hell Robert Huth is about to win his second PL medal after he got one with Chelsea in '05. Agreed about the potential of Christensen & Musonda, more to the former as I haven't followed the young Belgian's career. 

The good thing is (to an extent) it's not just a Chelsea problem per se. It's a systemic problem in English football that severely lacks any real competition for academies, I'm baffled why we're still yet to even trail the B team system but I guess there would be more opposition from the Football League than anyone else.  

That first part is just a thing fans say. It's like in real life when you think or like to believe you'd step in if someone got mugged or something, only to do nothing when it actually happens.

Remember Bruma? After the initial excitement of him being the future John Terry, I didn't think he'd be more than a PL midtable level defender. It took him a while but he's been making big strides this season, most notably impressing against Atletico and against Utd earlier. He might end up playing at a pretty high level though that remains to be seen.

And don't forget good ol' Jackie Cork. He's done well for himself. Decent player.

Yeah, they don't seem to be in the mood to make any changes. No one seems to care with all the financial succes.

But on a more positive note, English talents do seem to be thriving more nowadays. I could be wrong though.

[Stats 7,135]

On 20/04/2016 at 3:46 PM, DYC. said:

40% is generous, LDN.

Youth trophies are pretty much irrelevant. And they become a whole lot less important when no one breaks through. It should be about development. A team like Ajax for example play with youngsters in the first team, very young players at u-21 level and some go out on loan. And that leads to weakened youth teams.

Completely agree with the last part. Thing is, the youngsters aren't nearly as good as fans make them out to be. Ask any fan of any club at any time and they'll tell you there are a couple or even a group of youngsters good enough to make the first team. It's not a coincidence. It's fans being fans.

While I do think Chelsea have some real talent, the great majority won't make it. I have hope for Christensen and Musonda. If not at Chelsea, I'd say they'll make it elsewhere (top level football). The likes of Ake, RLC, Boga, Solanke are up in the air for me. The rest.... no.

You are right but it shows that if you integrate youth players with first team players, it can work. Can you believe for instance that our youth team beat United's youth team 5-1 in the FAYC at their place and both Rashford and Fosu-Mensah played the whole game. They both have been integrated into the first team and do not look out of place at all. Abraham has been much more prolific at youth level than Rashford however United integrate him into the first team and he prob will have a better career. You swap the two players and Abraham might just be where Rashford is right now, vice versa.

 

[Tomo 21,751]

On 20/04/2016 at 4:27 PM, CHOULO19 said:

Sorry, I honestly didn't mean to twist what you said, but that is genuinely my recollection of the debate. 

So, do you think we should play more young players than we have? And I don't mean  start the U21 XI, but at a bare minimum, for me, we should be starting Traore, Kenedey and Miazga every match, in addition of course to RLC. Have one or two from the U21/19s on the bench and give them cameos. Don't think that's too much to ask for at all... 

No need to apologise, I didn't mean to say twisted just had a long day.

Maybe the cameos should have been done more but for me Guus has handled the other three well.

[The Mak 4,459]

No.

My short answer is that If we didn't give talents like Lukaku, KDB and Bertrand a fair run in the team before shipping them out, then our youth has no chance in hell of dominating anything.

On a positive note, this mainly revolved around Mourinho's 'get the title ASAP and fuck the future' policy. A few may bleed into the first team in the coming years if Conte decides it, but it also has a lot to do with the board's mentality towards wanting to win trophies vs. wanting the academy to pay off...