No.10 Role

[hjperdeath 2,226]

I see your point but think it's stretching it to say it's make or break for Mata based on 1 game against Steaua. And it's not like the others are exactly doing that well at the moment.

my bad, might have exaggerated a little bit by using that phrase.

[meetdoscar 335]

The way I see it. You are not very effective in convincing me in your reasoning. Therefore, I thank you for your enjoyable chat & let´s leave it at that.

Well i wasn't trying to convince you anyway because i am not mourinho but i just discussed facts as to why mourinho might have preferred oscar based on his own actions and statements towards oscar and mata. But you sounded very unconvincing yourself if you were attempting to be otherwise because aside from telling me or making it look like since a few pages back the gap in creativity between mata and oscar is like that between arbeloa and Cr7 and sounding like the most creativity to come from chelsea squad should be No. 10 not minding the lack of it from the 3 more advanced attacking positions in front of the no. 10 yeah let's leave it at that but then you are anti-mourinho aren't you so whatever decisions he makes is debatable by you not excluding oscar as his preferred no.10 and please remain a gentleman as always if you care to reply.

[bushman 2,043]

Well i wasn't trying to convince you anyway because i am not mourinho but i just discussed facts as to why mourinho might have preferred oscar based on his own actions and statements towards oscar and mata. But you sounded very unconvincing yourself if you were attempting to be otherwise because aside from telling me or making it look like since a few pages back the gap in creativity between mata and oscar is like that between arbeloa and Cr7 and sounding like the most creativity to come from chelsea squad should be No. 10 not minding the lack of it from the 3 more advanced attacking positions in front of the no. 10 yeah let's leave it at that but then you are anti-mourinho aren't you so whatever decisions he makes is debatable by you not excluding oscar as his preferred no.10 and please remain a gentleman as always if you care to reply.

As far I am concerned, I was always a gentleman. I do not insult people here & I value your opinion, immensely.

I just believe Mata is better suited for No 10, that´s all. The proof was seen in recent games.

[meetdoscar 335]

This is a rebellious thread in my mind and only came about when mourinho said oscar is his preferred no. 10 I've made my points as to why I think mourinho prefers oscar to juan not trying to discredit juan intentionally but in a debate there will always be pros and cons, and based on the view from the choice of the coach this thread rather seems like Juan mata no.10 vs Mourinho, but I could also make points why benitez chose juan over oscar as no. 10 while also seemingly showing unavoidable discredit to oscar but mourinho is coach now and not benitez there doesn't seem to be much point to it anymore ill just watch and see what happens and hope that whatever happens makes chelsea a better team but whatever posts i disagree or agree with and i feel i have valid points to contribute i will and this is one as it goes contrary to the coaches decision as to where mata and oscar should both play when in the team.

However i think this might definitely turn out to be a long debate and answers shall come over the course of the season.

[Korea 734]

Both played well today...

However, I don't think we can play Hazard-Mata-Oscar together.. (big game wise).

[The_Flash 1,144]

Oscar played terrible today for whatever reason and should have been subbed earlier, he gave the ball away many times and bit more effort coups have caught many balls that went out.

Mata was strong and I really thought was going to get a goal.

On a good day they can both play and well.

[Korea 734]

Oscar played terrible today for whatever reason and should have been subbed earlier, he gave the ball away many times and bit more effort coups have caught many balls that went out.

Mata was strong and I really thought was going to get a goal.

On a good day they can both play and well.

Oscar played really well in the second half....

He got 1 assist to Rambo and would of had another had Mata scored...IN the first half though, it was mehh (good and bad).

[The_Flash 1,144]

I disagree he was poor, he gave away any balls, could have caught a few balls he let go out. I really like him bit today he was poor.

[Sidzeret 2,257]

Both had nice games today.

I reckon Mata outplayed Oscar for the sake of the thread. :-)

[didierforever 7,349]

this thread needs to be dissolved. its pretty clear CFC plays its best football with both on the field. add an in form hazard and we have magic. so like today i hope to see mata-oscar exchanging position, like mata started as no.10 , then after 15 or so minutes went wide with oscar getting a chance. and that is what should be happening.

[AndersonBLUE 819]

It's pretty clear that Mata is the better no. 10, always has been. His passing seems quicker, and has a better first touch.

[Rmpr 8,977]

Ok. I over reacted a bit. But hearing the main reasoning for why it should be oscar over mata is because of defensive workrate, is way off. Its not like mata doesn't bother. And there are far more important things for the CAM to posess than their defensive workrate.

And i think the pressure on our pivot is partly caused by us not having a good one, rather than it being the players in front fault. Ofc if someone helps them out it makes their job easier, but its not like they are amazing themselves anyway.

It is not the main reason though, it is just something that is very flagarant...Mata is a better player overall, but Oscar centrally is able to make the team play better!

Oscar allows players like Lampard and Rambo to go foward and the wingers to have more freedom, all due to his amazing defensive skills and stamina. However, he also involves our attacking players way more than Mata does because he plays without the ball on his feet. And that is not counting the fact Oscar's passes are up there with Mata's and so are his long range shots.

The only major downgrade we would have with Oscar as a #10 is the flair and dribbling. But Jose doesnt really need his CAM to be someone who attacks the defenders because he will have his wingers doing it for him. So this wouldnt be too much of an issue.

For me (and even Mourinho), its not even a question who must play behind te striker. Oscar gives a balance to the midfield Mata simply doesnt (both on attack and defence)...

EDIT: That doesnt mean I dont think Mata shouldnt play. He should, just not as a CAM.

[Korea 734]

Mata and Oscar can play together, however, Hazard-Mata-Oscar should not start together.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

It is not the main reason though, it is just something that is very flagarant...Mata is a better player overall, but Oscar centrally is able to make the team play better!

Oscar allows players like Lampard and Rambo to go foward and the wingers to have more freedom, all due to his amazing defensive skills and stamina. However, he also involves our attacking players way more than Mata does because he plays without the ball on his feet. And that is not counting the fact Oscar's passes are up there with Mata's and so are his long range shots.

The only major downgrade we would have with Oscar as a #10 is the flair and dribbling. But Jose doesnt really need his CAM to be someone who attacks the defenders because he will have his wingers doing it for him. So this wouldnt be too much of an issue.

For me (and even Mourinho), its not even a question who must play behind te striker. Oscar gives a balance to the midfield Mata simply doesnt (both on attack and defence)...

EDIT: That doesnt mean I dont think Mata shouldnt play. He should, just not as a CAM.

I don't think the downgrade is in flair and dribbling. In fact, Oscar is probably better at dribbling and tries for as many flair moves as Mata. The real downgrade is creativity. Oscar's play allows Lampard and Ramires to go forward a bit more so he allows them to be better, but Mata actually makes players around him better. Oscar has 5 assists in 40 league games (and 2 of them were as a sub in that 8-0 Villa game). Mata has 13 in his last 36 games. Oscar has averaged about 1.5 key passes a game in that period, Mata about 2,7. Even without those stats, Mata just sees the pitch better and is able to spring players behind defenses. His passing numbers are better across the board. More long passes, more accurate crosses, more through balls, better passing percentage. Mata's also a better finisher right now. He's just a much better offensive player.

[Barbara 15,149]

I don't think the downgrade is in flair and dribbling. In fact, Oscar is probably better at dribbling and tries for as many flair moves as Mata. The real downgrade is creativity. Oscar's play allows Lampard and Ramires to go forward a bit more so he allows them to be better, but Mata actually makes players around him better. Oscar has 5 assists in 40 league games (and 2 of them were as a sub in that 8-0 Villa game). Mata has 13 in his last 36 games. Oscar has averaged about 1.5 key passes a game in that period, Mata about 2,7. Even without those stats, Mata just sees the pitch better and is able to spring players behind defenses. His passing numbers are better across the board. More long passes, more accurate crosses, more through balls, better passing percentage. Mata's also a better finisher right now. He's just a much better offensive player.

I said it once, and I'll repeat... comparing a 21yo Brazilian first season in Europe - in England nonetheless - with a guy well established there for two season is unfair.

we should compare their stats this season... (ignoring the age gap between them).

I concede that Mata is much more creative than Oscar, but Oscar is creative himself - just not as much as Mata.

He seemed a more balanced player than Juan before Mourinho started to work on Mata tactically. In terms of completeness I can see already Mata closing the gap (meaning Mourinho is making him a better player despite all the shit said about Mata being who he has always been and Mourinho just having to play him because he's Mata). As well as I see Oscar in terms of stats (and even creativity) also progressing right now, but each one will probable continue to be better than the other in what makes them so special - Mata's creativity and Oscar's being a complete player.

[Korea 734]

I don't think the downgrade is in flair and dribbling. In fact, Oscar is probably better at dribbling and tries for as many flair moves as Mata. The real downgrade is creativity. Oscar's play allows Lampard and Ramires to go forward a bit more so he allows them to be better, but Mata actually makes players around him better. Oscar has 5 assists in 40 league games (and 2 of them were as a sub in that 8-0 Villa game). Mata has 13 in his last 36 games. Oscar has averaged about 1.5 key passes a game in that period, Mata about 2,7. Even without those stats, Mata just sees the pitch better and is able to spring players behind defenses. His passing numbers are better across the board. More long passes, more accurate crosses, more through balls, better passing percentage. Mata's also a better finisher right now. He's just a much better offensive player.

Your also taking stats when Oscar played as a rw vs Mata playing as a cam.....I guess we should use Oscar CL stats vs Mata CL stats last year as well too...

Oscar had 1 assist yesterday and created 2 good chances as well for both Mata and Schurrle to score. At the ripe age of 22, whenever I watch Oscar play whether it is for Brazil or for Chelsea, he's understanding of the game is vast superior to a lot of the guys on the team.

On a side note, what do people mean when they say creativity on this board? Oscar is a creative player.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

I said it once, and I'll repeat... comparing a 21yo Brazilian first season in Europe - in England nonetheless - with a guy well established there for two season is unfair.

we should compare their stats this season... (ignoring the age gap between them).

I concede that Mata is much more creative than Oscar, but Oscar is creative himself - just not as much as Mata.

He seemed a more balanced player than Juan before Mourinho started to work on Mata tactically. In terms of completeness I see Mata closing the gap. As well as I see Oscar in terms of stats (and even creativity), but each one will probable continue to be better than the other in what makes them so special - Mata's creativity and Oscar's being a complete player.

And I've said this before too and I will repeat. It doesn't matter. Mata is better offensively. It doesn't matter if Oscar is 16 and Mata is 30. We are not discussing age and experience, we are saying who is better right now. Maybe Oscar will refine his offensive game this year or next, it's quite possible but you keep bringing something up that nobody is discussing. If we signed a great 12 YO prospect from Latvia and played him at the #10, it wouldn't be fair to compare his production to Mata or Oscar's either because he's young and has no experience. It's just entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

@minseok Yi. Oscar never played RW. That position doesn't exist in our system and the problem with Oscar playing there is that he moved too centrally and we got all bunched up in the middle of the pitch. This wasn't a winger who stuck to the wing to create space for other players and whipped crosses in. (He had fewer crosses per game than Mata) this was a player who interchanged in the middle of the pitch. Anyway, Hazard played all his games on one side of the pitch and had many more chances created (this year and last). Also, he's played entirely in the centre of the pitch this year and has basically the same passing numbers. Oscar is a creative player, he's just not particularly creative for a #10. You don't see the vision that players like Mata, Silva, Ozil, Cazorla, etc...have. Strangely enough, Oscar was 45th in the league in key passes per game last year and the exact same 45th position again so far this year.

[Korea 734]

How do people get this stat of key pass?

Does this mean an assist or what?

Now i see what it means...

[Korea 734]

oh em gee, your just using whoscored.com as your reference to these stats.......

Stats are cool, however, big pictures there are many factors that you missed.

1. Hazard has suckass

2. Mourinho as our manager, whose tactics are a bit defensive.

3. Oscar has to run around and we pretty much play 4-3-3 this season (even though on paper its 4-2-3-1).

[Barbara 15,149]

And I've said this before too and I will repeat. It doesn't matter. Mata is better offensively. It doesn't matter if Oscar is 16 and Mata is 30. We are not discussing age and experience, we are saying who is better right now. Maybe Oscar will refine his offensive game this year or next, it's quite possible but you keep bringing something up that nobody is discussing. If we signed a great 12 YO prospect from Latvia and played him at the #10, it wouldn't be fair to compare his production to Mata or Oscar's either because he's young and has no experience. It's just entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

@minseok Yi. Oscar never played RW. That position doesn't exist in our system and the problem with Oscar playing there is that he moved too centrally and we got all bunched up in the middle of the pitch. This wasn't a winger who stuck to the wing to create space for other players and whipped crosses in. (He had fewer crosses per game than Mata) this was a player who interchanged in the middle of the pitch. Anyway, Hazard played all his games on one side of the pitch and had many more chances created (this year and last). Also, he's played entirely in the centre of the pitch this year and has basically the same passing numbers. Oscar is a creative player, he's just not particularly creative for a #10. You don't see the vision that players like Mata, Silva, Ozil, Cazorla, etc...have. Strangely enough, Oscar was 45th in the league in key passes per game last year and the exact same 45th position again so far this year.

did I use the age card?

I said you can't compare a player adapting to a complete different style of football especially when he's so young (which makes it more challenging, but the problem isn't the frigging age) to a player that is completely adapted. Overlooking that every south american player has to go through a huge adaptation when moving to Europe, especially England - is ignorance... maybe you guys don't have any idea of what playing in Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, etc is and think that magically the player is ready to play European football. But that has been said (and seen in the pitch) so many times that it never ceases to amuse me how people just ignore it.

Did you know for example in Brazil a football match normally has 40-50 fouls and many of them reach 60-70? You know why is that? Because the smallest physical contact here is considered a foul.

Also the playing is slower, wider, the pitches are huge, players are used to have huge amount of space to play, etc... how shocking do you think it is to be playing in minimal spaces, where most physical contact is considered normal, in pitches that seem to be as big as my bedroom? How much a difference does it make or how does it affect a players ability to continue to do his thing, especially a midfielder.

So the adaptation problem detracted his stats which is why I said we should compare both this season - despite the age gap.

I mean people are becoming so blind in their standings that it seems like they don't even bother to try to read posts before jumping to conclusions.

btw Oscar was more creative, had more chances created, more vision and more attacking contribution than Mata yesterday.

But continue your ...