Could we be having the wrong impression about the pivot?

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Our pivot is okay but coud be helpful if they offer threat when we are in possesion. So that when mata and hazard are man marked, we still look dangerous and offer goal threat from deep. This pivot offers nothing in attack during possesion.

1. They both can't give overhead passes

2. They both can't thread through balls to the striker

3. They can't shoot on target(vidal, lampard, yaya)

4. Mata and oscar have to come very deep to take possesion and it makes them tired.

The temporary solution could be in our own team

Our best chelsea peformance this season was against norwich(who beat arsenal and manutd). In that game, we played lampard in the pivot.

Why haven't we tried lampard-ramires combo more?? Lampard foward runs can be covered by ramires speed to recover and tackle when we lose the ball.

Our Pivot

Ramires negative is his poor passing, but he

1. Is one of the best at stoping counters, like makekele

2. Is effective when we are on the counter

3. Is a better tackler than mikel

Mikel just sits in front of the defence and is strong on the ball, nothing more.

1. He has no energy to run and stop counters, too slow.

2. He can't pass long balls which lampard is far better at. Ramires provides energy so what is he providing an extra body??

3. He can't shoot on target even if his life depended on it.

4. He offers no threat when we are in possesion.

Question

Lampard and romeu look bad playin beside mikel, what if its because of mikel rather than lamps?? Why don't we try "ramires-lampard" more often.

Everytime mikel is taken off, our domination of the game seems to improve. And any counters are handled briliantly by ramires. I have realised that ramires actually makes mikel look good and not the other way around. Our best pivot for now before we get a regista or KDB comes back could be LAMPARD-RAMIRES.

Lampard

1. Is a better passer

2. Can give long passes, (remember the one on one for torres against norwich)

3. Shoots on target and scores from deep

4. Is better with a faster partner like ramires

5. He is intelligent in making late runs into the box.

6. He makes tackles too, remember the champs league final, and against messi, and then the through pass after for ramires goal?? Mikel would have passed back.

The lampard-ramires pivot will not be the best in the world but I think its really the best we have now especially against smaller opposition.

What do you think?

[OneMoSalah 8,778]

Our pivot is okay but coud be helpful if they offer threat when we are in possesion. So that when mata and hazard are man marked, we still look dangerous and offer goal threat from deep. This pivot offers nothing in attack during possesion.

1. They both can't give overhead passes

2. They both can't thread through balls to the striker

3. They can't shoot on target(vidal, lampard, yaya)

4. Mata and oscar have to come very deep to take possesion and it makes them tired.

The temporary solution could be in our own team

Our best chelsea peformance this season was against norwich(who beat arsenal and manutd). In that game, we played lampard in the pivot.

Why haven't we tried lampard-ramires combo more?? Lampard foward runs can be covered by ramires speed to recover and tackle when we lose the ball.

Our Pivot

Ramires negative is his poor passing, but he

1. Is one of the best at stoping counters, like makekele

2. Is effective when we are on the counter

3. Is a better tackler than mikel

Mikel just sits in front of the defence and is strong on the ball, nothing more.

1. He has no energy to run and stop counters, too slow.

2. He can't pass long balls which lampard is far better at. Ramires provides energy so what is he providing an extra body??

3. He can't shoot on target even if his life depended on it.

4. He offers no threat when we are in possesion.

Question

Lampard and romeu look bad playin beside mikel, what if its because of mikel rather than lamps?? Why don't we try "ramires-lampard" more often.

Everytime mikel is taken off, our domination of the game seems to improve. And any counters are handled briliantly by ramires. I have realised that ramires actually makes mikel look good and not the other way around. Our best pivot for now before we get a regista or KDB comes back could be LAMPARD-RAMIRES.

Lampard

1. Is a better passer

2. Can give long passes, (remember the one on one for torres against norwich)

3. Shoots on target and scores from deep

4. Is better with a faster partner like ramires

5. He is intelligent in making late runs into the box.

6. He makes tackles too, remember the champs league final, and against messi, and then the through pass after for ramires goal?? Mikel would have passed back.

The lampard-ramires pivot will not be the best in the world but I think its really the best we have now especially against smaller opposition.

What do you think?

I think you forgot to mention that Lampard will always leave whoever hes next to in the pivot exposed as he did in pre-season which is the reason why he doesn't play.... Robbie changed that by started Ramires there and Mikels not been as exposed as much as Ramires has the engine to get back and tackle (like he did vs Juve at one point, such a brilliant work rate). Mike is our best holding player though, he gives the team balance, fills the gaps when Luiz/Cahill goes up and always shows for the ball marked or not. Still can't believe people are trying to say we need a player to replace Mikel, hes having the best season of his career so far wish people would look at that and stop saying we need to drop him for whoever bla bla bla. We have a team with 3 creative players (Mata, Hazard and Oscar) and quite frankly they have all looked shite in the last few games, blaming Mikel for not offering anything when the three have been terrible and the striker doesn't move is beyond absurd.

Also Ramires and Lampard played in the pivot vs Nordsjaelland and looked averagef together, Lampard wants to be a box to box player still but thats what Ramires is better at being as he proved under AVB and so far in the pivot. We weren't convincing in that game, just lucky we eventually opened them up due to the three behind Torres and Luiz's screamer. We do lack penetration sometimes but with Hazard, Mata and Oscar we should be able to open teams up with their vision and with Ramires' drive and powerful runs he should be able to give defenders something to think about freeing space for others.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

I think you forgot to mention that Lampard will always leave whoever hes next to in the pivot exposed as he did in pre-season which is the reason why he doesn't play.... Robbie changed that by started Ramires there and Mikels not been as exposed as much as Ramires has the engine to get back and tackle (like he did vs Juve at one point, such a brilliant work rate). Mike is our best holding player though, he gives the team balance, fills the gaps when Luiz/Cahill goes up and always shows for the ball marked or not. Still can't believe people are trying to say we need a player to replace Mikel, hes having the best season of his career so far wish people would look at that and stop saying we need to drop him for whoever bla bla bla. We have a team with 3 creative players (Mata, Hazard and Oscar) and quite frankly they have all looked shite in the last few games, blaming Mikel for not offering anything when the three have been terrible and the striker doesn't move is beyond absurd.

Also Ramires and Lampard played in the pivot vs Nordsjaelland and looked averagef together, Lampard wants to be a box to box player still but thats what Ramires is better at being as he proved under AVB and so far in the pivot. We weren't convincing in that game, just lucky we eventually opened them up due to the three behind Torres and Luiz's screamer. We do lack penetration sometimes but with Hazard, Mata and Oscar we should be able to open teams up with their vision and with Ramires' drive and powerful runs he should be able to give defenders something to think about freeing space for others.

I get you, but I'm in no way blaming mikel. I just see ramires as the more important partner in the pivot right now.

If you remember the cup game against manutd, in the first half mikel and romeu played together. And the pivot was damn poor, manutd dominated those periods with more chances and romeu played badly. But in the 2nd half ramires came on for mikel and all of a sudden we were by far better with romeu-ramires in the pivot.

Another game was against westbrom, he was taken off and we dominated them till the end.

All our central pivot players play bad with mikel but are good with ramires that's what I've noticed.

Lampard makes foward runs, but with ramires behind him, he can recover and make game saving tackles. So this will make us more attacking assured that we hav a better tackler in midfield. Sometimes we need more bodies foward to push opposition back and pressure from the top. If we have a counter attackin stopper like ramires we could try that sometimes so that we can have a genuine GOAL THREAT from cm that we have lacked since ballack.

[OneMoSalah 8,778]

I get you, but I'm in no way blaming mikel. I just see ramires as the more important partner in the pivot right now.

If you remember the cup game against manutd, in the first half mikel and romeu played together. And the pivot was damn poor, manutd dominated those periods with more chances and romeu played badly. But in the 2nd half ramires came on for mikel and all of a sudden we were by far better with romeu-ramires in the pivot.

Another game was against westbrom, he was taken off and we dominated them till the end.

All our central pivot players play bad with mikel but are good with ramires that's what I've noticed.

Lampard makes foward runs, but with ramires behind him, he can recover and make game saving tackles. So this will make us more attacking assured that we hav a better tackler in midfield. Sometimes we need more bodies foward to push opposition back and pressure from the top. If we have a counter attackin stopper like ramires we could try that sometimes so that we can have a genuine GOAL THREAT from cm that we have lacked since ballack.

I think when Romeu came of vs Swansea and Utd we got a foothold in the game. We havfe a very similar situation to Holland in the 2010 world cup and the Euros 2012. They usually played De Jong and Van Bommel who aren't really mobile and they don't use one as a box to box, they usually subbed one of them off and used Van Der Vaart as a box to box midfielder. Spurs have Sandro and Dembele in their pivot, Dembele plays as the box to box midfielder, we have Mikel and Ramires and Ramires plays as the box to box midfielder. When we've taken Mikel off we've dominated but when hes been on when dominated. Mikel isn't the problem here.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Ramires wouldn't work as the the more defensive-minded player in the pivot. He's too aggressive with his tackles which is fine if he has support, but for that role, you really want someone who is positionally-minded like Mikel because they are often the last man in defence (when the CBs split wider as they often do). Also, one of Ramires great strengths is making runs that open up space for other players and for himself. He wouldn't be able to do that. Ramires if a very good player, but he simply is never going to properly fit in with the team Roman wants to build. He'd be fantastic as a central midfielder in a Mourinho 4-3-3. Counter-attack football where he gets to play centrally, doesn't have to create much, will be responsible defensively, etc...Ideal for him I think.But on a team that's looking towards the Barcelona, ball control model, a midfielder who isn't creative and isn't a very good passer, is a poor fit. This is what Roman (or the board) doesn't really get. It's not just about buying talent, it's about buying talent that fits together.

The best pivot duo IMO would either be Mikel and Oscar or Mikel and someone who isn't on the team right now. Lampard is still probably the best fit skill-wise this season if he ever gets healthy again, but we need a long-term solution.

[YouNameIt 1,511]

We dont need to play the double pivot.

Cech

Iva - Luiz - Terry - Cole

Mikel

Ramires - Oscar

Mata---------------Hazard

Sturridge

or

Mikel

Oscar - Lampard

Moses---------------Hazard

X

etc

[Backstreet09 499]

Benitez made alot of notes yesterday , Romeu will get more playing time and we may see mikel or ramires or maybe both benched after the fulham game .

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Ramires wouldn't work as the the more defensive-minded player in the pivot. He's too aggressive with his tackles which is fine if he has support, but for that role, you really want someone who is positionally-minded like Mikel because they are often the last man in defence (when the CBs split wider as they often do). Also, one of Ramires great strengths is making runs that open up space for other players and for himself. He wouldn't be able to do that. Ramires if a very good player, but he simply is never going to properly fit in with the team Roman wants to build. He'd be fantastic as a central midfielder in a Mourinho 4-3-3. Counter-attack football where he gets to play centrally, doesn't have to create much, will be responsible defensively, etc...Ideal for him I think.But on a team that's looking towards the Barcelona, ball control model, a midfielder who isn't creative and isn't a very good passer, is a poor fit. This is what Roman (or the board) doesn't really get. It's not just about buying talent, it's about buying talent that fits together.

The best pivot duo IMO would either be Mikel and Oscar or Mikel and someone who isn't on the team right now. Lampard is still probably the best fit skill-wise this season if he ever gets healthy again, but we need a long-term solution.

I know ramires is not a good passer, but he makes up for this with his energy to stop opposition counters. Trust me, ramires has stopped a lot of counters for us and that is a massive thing to lose. I can't say this for mikel, so is his role just to sit in front of the defence and pass to the full backs??

I don't see that as a good enough contribution when we attack. He should step up his overhead passing game, he is too poor at that. He is too poor at shooting from distance too.

Pivot is always one box to box and one creative midfielder.

Our box to box = ramires

Our creative = ???

All the opponent do now is to hassle hazard and mata and we can't do any thing while in possesion. I am watching our matches and when we are in possesion I know nothing will come of it because mazacar are closely marked so we mainly create from the counter. Some times the pivot is free for a shot and can't shoot on target. But if we have someone that can shoot too, defending opponents will be fewer on mata and that will leave space for mata.

Ramires is doing his box to box role well but the role mikel is playing is just not enough in my opinion. He needs more influence on the possesion side of our game(long through balls or shooting) he should have one.

I can tell you that RB will realise this very soon when he tinkers the squad..

[kellzfresh 7,229]

We dont need to play the double pivot.

Cech

Iva - Luiz - Terry - Cole

Mikel

Ramires - Oscar

Mata---------------Hazard

Sturridge

or

Mikel

Oscar - Lampard

Moses---------------Hazard

X

etc

I think benitez is too addicted to playin 4-2-3-1 and won't play that. But we need plan b during matches, so 4-3-3 tinkering could be vital too.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

I think when Romeu came of vs Swansea and Utd we got a foothold in the game. We havfe a very similar situation to Holland in the 2010 world cup and the Euros 2012. They usually played De Jong and Van Bommel who aren't really mobile and they don't use one as a box to box, they usually subbed one of them off and used Van Der Vaart as a box to box midfielder. Spurs have Sandro and Dembele in their pivot, Dembele plays as the box to box midfielder, we have Mikel and Ramires and Ramires plays as the box to box midfielder. When we've taken Mikel off we've dominated but when hes been on when dominated. Mikel isn't the problem here.

Sandro is a far better tackler than mikel. I can count the number of times I saw mikel make a sliding challenge, that's how few he even attempts that.

Anytime we take off mikel, we are better attacking. I'm not sure of defending but we are far better pressing opposition like manutd does, and they don't even have a chance to attack us. With mikel on, the attack is reduce and so we soak pressure instead.

I just wish he was more imposing of himself in possesion.

[communicate 2,703]

I get you, but I'm in no way blaming mikel. I just see ramires as the more important partner in the pivot right now.

If you remember the cup game against manutd, in the first half mikel and romeu played together. And the pivot was damn poor, manutd dominated those periods with more chances and romeu played badly. But in the 2nd half ramires came on for mikel and all of a sudden we were by far better with romeu-ramires in the pivot.

Another game was against westbrom, he was taken off and we dominated them till the end.

All our central pivot players play bad with mikel but are good with ramires that's what I've noticed.

Lampard makes foward runs, but with ramires behind him, he can recover and make game saving tackles. So this will make us more attacking assured that we hav a better tackler in midfield. Sometimes we need more bodies foward to push opposition back and pressure from the top. If we have a counter attackin stopper like ramires we could try that sometimes so that we can have a genuine GOAL THREAT from cm that we have lacked since ballack.

Romeu and mikel partnership does not work because both of them are dm it makes u look very static playing like that.

And like everyone said, u cannot play lamp and ramires together. Both of them want to go forward all the time.

[Muzchap 8,966]

We dont need to play the double pivot.

Cech

Iva - Luiz - Terry - Cole

Mikel

Ramires - Oscar

Mata---------------Hazard

Sturridge

or

Mikel

Oscar - Lampard

Moses---------------Hazard

X

etc

FINALLY

A post that matches my thoughts (and previous comments)... This 4-2-3-1 formation CLEARLY isn't working for us - so why do we persist with it...

Let's try 4-4-1-1 or 4-3-3 or 3-5-1-1 or 3-5-2....

Why we are playing a system where the players aren't correct is beyond me!

4-2-3-1 was RDM's favoured formation...

Hopefully, RB will mix it up - as you should have different formations for different games and different personnel - this is called Tactics

[Kieran. 6,317]

I'm a fan of the 3-5-1-1.

-------------Cech--------------

------Cahill-Luiz-Terry--------

Azpi-------Mikel--------Ramires

----Mata----------Oscar-------

------------Hazard--------------

-----------Sturridge-------------

Actually think this could work out nicely, but good thing I'm not a manager.

[Rmpr 8,977]

I'm a fan of the 3-5-1-1.

-------------Cech--------------

------Cahill-Luiz-Terry--------

Azpi-------Mikel--------Ramires

----Mata----------Oscar-------

------------Hazard--------------

-----------Sturridge-------------

Actually think this could work out nicely, but good thing I'm not a manager.

I am not saying this is a bad idea, but we would have a better chance of calling RDM back than to play 3-5-2/3-5-1-1.

Roman would hear Benitez saying it and would scream: SAAAAAACKED!

[Kieran. 6,317]

I am not saying this is a bad idea, but we would have a better chance of calling RDM back than to play 3-5-2/3-5-1-1.

I know. We will see the 4-2-3-1 til the end of the season.

[YouNameIt 1,511]

FINALLY

A post that matches my thoughts (and previous comments)... This 4-2-3-1 formation CLEARLY isn't working for us - so why do we persist with it...

Let's try 4-4-1-1 or 4-3-3 or 3-5-1-1 or 3-5-2....

Why we are playing a system where the players aren't correct is beyond me!

4-2-3-1 was RDM's favoured formation...

Hopefully, RB will mix it up - as you should have different formations for different games and different personnel - this is called Tactics

Probably because we won the CL with it. But we should really try and mix things up, especially depending on whos on the pitch. For instance.

- If Lamps is playing we should definatley NOT play the double pivot.

- When Moses is playing we could go for a 4-3-3, we'll have more width.

We still have problems with the linkup play between the defense and the attack, because we lack a good passer in the double pivot. If we change formation and use Oscar in a litte deeper role, we get that. I would actually like to see this and I think it could be awesome:

Cech

Iva - Luiz - Terry - Cole

Mikel

Ramires - Oscar

Mata---------------Hazard

Sturridge

OR a really interesting formation:

Cech

Azpi - Terry - Cole

Luiz

Ramires - Oscar

Moses - Mata - Hazard

Sturridge

Sturridge

[The Skipper 20,593]

People do realise that Benitez has mostly used 4-2-3-1 throughout his career? Spanning back to his Valencia days...

[Muzchap 8,966]

People do realise that Benitez has mostly used 4-2-3-1 throughout his career? Spanning back to his Valencia days...

Yup - but if we don't have the 'players' for that - then we shouldn't be afraid to change...!

That's what I hope we see - the famous Plan B - I keep referring to