Closed Chelsea 0-0 Man City

[SeB 1,281]

I'm sorry but in terms of passing, Mikel is good, but he is by no means brilliant in terms of technical proficiency or consistency - & truly lacks creativity in my honest opinion. He's great at playing the simple pass - but more is required than that with only two central midfielders. & in fact whenever he does actually try something slightly more audacious & ambitious - it more often than not results in us giving up possession.

One more time I don't disagree with you but you seem unable to make the slightest nuance possible. Mikel doesn't lacks creativity, he has the vision and the technical ability (what Meireles didn't had, he had the vision & not the execution) to pick some great passes at times.

I'm the first to say he could unleash his play in a less restricted role in that double pivot. But keep hammering the same clichés about his passing range/choices is annoying. Watch again the sequence where we get the two corners before Cahill scores, whatch how Mikel picks Mata with a chipped pass (to my extent, playing through or above an opponents line or/and through space is creative play).

Mikel lost sometimes possession when he was upper on the field, but most of the time that's because he hasn't the right option around him.

He is also fine with carrying the ball when there is plenty of space around him (as most players are) because many opposition players in fact allow him to have it such is his reputation for being a notriously ineffectual player offensively, but the real problem is that once he does start to venture further forward closerto the box, someone will eventually come to close him down & he simply doesn't have the ability to go past them on his own & by the time all of this has happened the other options around him that might have provided a goal scoring threat have been marked up & therefore he has no choice but to yet again play the simple, yet ultimately ineffective & arbitrary pass - all due to the simple fact that he can't shoot for his life,

That's way too simplisitic in my opinion. Mikel's ball retention is outstanding, on the ball he's slow but he keeps the ball close to his feet. That's the trademark of the very best players on the ball, being fouled because opponents can't even put a foot on the ball.

Against packed teams, Mikel has much more purpose than the 'he only plays backwards, fuck him he's not penetrative at all'. Not only he's able to pick the vertical pass at times (again, not saying his main game relies on that but he has the ability to do so, that's what you seem to deny) but he can be a good holder of the ball when he decides to outnumber the last third. That has very much of a rugby tactic but then he can fix a defender and then, free space for a 3rd man run.

When you can't congestion more a packed team, you have to attract it or make the players coming out of their position.

& he fails to spot the less obvious runs of players across the final third. It doesn't make him a bad player by any means - but when Ramires can defend equally as well as he does, it truly makes his place in the team an essentially redundant one since we lack offensive potency in the middle of the park more than ever before. & that is because it is the first time in a long time that we haven't had Frank available to resolve this issue.

Mikel's use of the space and positioning in defensive situations is much better than Ramires. I genuinly love Ramires but in terms of defending he's much more relying on pace and 1vs1 challenges to recover than positioning/intercepting etc... Mikel isn't redundant at all, he just cannot unleash his game from a game to the one just after considering he played 4 full seasons in a very restricted role. I do think he's on the way to find his role, and I do think as well that he's far from being an issue, either in midfield or in the whole team.

I would honestly rather have David Luiz in Mikel's role in this system, & in fact that's probably actually why Luiz decides to make those random runs forward so often - because Mikel is basically the 5th defender in this system & it is really not helping the likes of Mazcar when we need another goal-scorer & opportunity-creator forward due to the perpetual underperforming Torres. Ramires can't do it all himself, & the fact is that he doesn't quite have the touch or ability to pull off the world class defense splitting passes & 30 yard pile-drivers that Lampard has built an illustrious career on.

Please be coherent, aren't you even able to notice that if a central defender can push forward, that's because of the space he's been given at the start? You can never expect that from a midfilder without relying all the time on his ability to give an accurate final delivery (coupled with the proper run). Ramires' last services are outstanding but we can't expect 100% from him.

Basically, a players' play is based on runs, with or without the ball. That's like vectors on the plan, there's one place where he starts his run from toward a point where he ends his run. That's not because a winger cuts inside that he's a better center forward, do you see what I mean?

Luiz goes forward to outnumber the zone in front of him. If we consider his wise runs forward, that's always because the team in front of him is static and closed down by the opponent who marks every player likely to receive the ball. That hasn't very much to do with Mikel being an extra-defender.

Actually that's the opposite, Luiz's wise runs forward implies Mikel to sit back and take Luiz's position. Not the opposite. And that's a normal part of a given gameplan or reaction to a given situation when the defenders has no passing options

It perplexes me when you say 'this kind of player is not available' - because that very player who embodies what we need has been arguably the best midfielder in the world over the last decade & is still at the club; albeit out injured at the moment. He can pull of those 'hollywood passes' just as well as Gerrard can - & he does so even more consistently too, being Lampard's main advantage over Gerrard who is slightly more reckless & does make occasionally costly mistakes a little more often than he should. Alonso would be ideal of course & so would Modric, but in an attacking sense, Lampard is more effective than both & we really do need his prowess in the final third to actually finish some of the numerous chances Mazcar create - as well as provide the service & delivery that only he can.

Okay, so I said Lampard is crap and Gerrard is better than him. Basically you didn't understood anything of what I tried to say.

My point was that Lampard can't play every game and can't hold such a big role every week (don't understand 'he's unable to hold that role' ), and that Mikel is able to be a decent option in terms of vertical penetration via a pass. There's no Gerrard/Lampard or Lampard/Mikel comparison.

Just a simple observation on the current situation and the current squad we have to play games with.

[Backstreet09 499]

One more time I don't disagree with you but you seem unable to make the slightest nuance possible. Mikel doesn't lacks creativity, he has the vision and the technical ability (what Meireles didn't had, he had the vision & not the execution) to pick some great passes at times.

I'm the first to say he could unleash his play in a less restricted role in that double pivot. But keep hammering the same clichés about his passing range/choices is annoying. Watch again the sequence where we get the two corners before Cahill scores, whatch how Mikel picks Mata with a chipped pass (to my extent, playing through or above an opponents line or/and through space is creative play).

Mikel lost sometimes possession when he was upper on the field, but most of the time that's because he hasn't the right option around him.

That's way too simplisitic in my opinion. Mikel's ball retention is outstanding, on the ball he's slow but he keeps the ball close to his feet. That's the trademark of the very best players on the ball, being fouled because opponents can't even put a foot on the ball.

Against packed teams, Mikel has much more purpose than the 'he only plays backwards, fuck him he's not penetrative at all'. Not only he's able to pick the vertical pass at times (again, not saying his main game relies on that but he has the ability to do so, that's what you seem to deny) but he can be a good holder of the ball when he decides to outnumber the last third. That has very much of a rugby tactic but then he can fix a defender and then, free space for a 3rd man run.

When you can't congestion more a packed team, you have to attract it or make the players coming out of their position.

Mikel's use of the space and positioning in defensive situations is much better than Ramires. I genuinly love Ramires but in terms of defending he's much more relying on pace and 1vs1 challenges to recover than positioning/intercepting etc... Mikel isn't redundant at all, he just cannot unleash his game from a game to the one just after considering he played 4 full seasons in a very restricted role. I do think he's on the way to find his role, and I do think as well that he's far from being an issue, either in midfield or in the whole team.

Please be coherent, aren't you even able to notice that if a central defender can push forward, that's because of the space he's been given at the start? You can never expect that from a midfilder without relying all the time on his ability to give an accurate final delivery (coupled with the proper run). Ramires' last services are outstanding but we can't expect 100% from him.

Basically, a players' play is based on runs, with or without the ball. That's like vectors on the plan, there's one place where he starts his run from toward a point where he ends his run. That's not because a winger cuts inside that he's a better center forward, do you see what I mean?

Luiz goes forward to outnumber the zone in front of him. If we consider his wise runs forward, that's always because the team in front of him is static and closed down by the opponent who marks every player likely to receive the ball. That hasn't very much to do with Mikel being an extra-defender.

Actually that's the opposite, Luiz's wise runs forward implies Mikel to sit back and take Luiz's position. Not the opposite. And that's a normal part of a given gameplan or reaction to a given situation when the defenders has no passing options

Okay, so I said Lampard is crap and Gerrard is better than him. Basically you didn't understood anything of what I tried to say.

My point was that Lampard can't play every game and can't hold such a big role every week (don't understand 'he's unable to hold that role' ), and that Mikel is able to be a decent option in terms of vertical penetration via a pass. There's no Gerrard/Lampard or Lampard/Mikel comparison.

Just a simple observation on the current situation and the current squad we have to play games with.

MIKEL CANT PASS =P I MEAN HE DONT KNOW HOW TO FUCKING PASS THE BALL FORWARD

[SeB 1,281]

MIKEL CANT PASS =P I MEAN HE DONT KNOW HOW TO FUCKING PASS THE BALL FORWARD

One funny figure about that is the ones who claim Fellaini is a better midfielder. Mikel has a 90% passing accuracy playing 65% forward in the double pivot this season. Last season Fellaini had 77% accuracy playing 45% forward in the double pivot (same left center midfield role despite different animations). No need to speak about the amount of passes per game as well

[Backstreet09 499]

One funny figure about that is the ones who claim Fellaini is a better midfielder. Mikel has a 90% passing accuracy playing 65% forward in the double pivot this season. Last season Fellaini had 77% accuracy playing 45% forward in the double pivot (same left center midfield role despite different animations). No need to speak about the amount of passes per game as well

dont know about that , but if he's such a good passer , why the fuck hazard and mata drops deep everytime to collect the ball ?

[SeB 1,281]

dont know about that , but if he's such a good passer , why the fuck hazard and mata drops deep everytime to collect the ball ?

I wonder if we watch the same games then (seriously)

The collective issue is precisely relying on Mata/Hazard not defending but also not being available to ask the ball in front of the double pivot.

[Backstreet09 499]

I wonder if we watch the same games then (seriously)

The collective issue is precisely relying on Mata/Hazard not defending but also not being available to ask the ball in front of the double pivot.

yeah i dont know if we watch the same games , cause i have never seen Mikel playing a single keypass lol . And i am tired of this double pivot shit , everyone knows it's not working , this was our first clean sheet in 11 games , wtf is the pivot doing ? not to mention they are totally useless in building attacks =P

[SeB 1,281]

yeah i dont know if we watch the same games , cause i have never seen Mikel playing a single keypass lol . And i am tired of this double pivot shit , everyone knows it's not working , this was our first clean sheet in 11 games , wtf is the pivot doing ? not to mention they are totally useless in building attacks =P

You can hardly pick a key pass from 40 yards. Mikel is more in the build up of some goals that you seem to think, it's him who assists Hazard on the 1st pen vs Reading.

The double pivot is meant to be the link between the defenders and the attackers, help & cover the full backs on ball side. They have to feed the 3 man line (considering the AM should act as a midfielder, all 3 are sometimes at level with Torres). If we can't keep clean sheets and avoid alleged mistakes at the back it's mainly because the attackers don't press and don't ask the ball at all.

The 6 players left are over-exposed

[Backstreet09 499]

You can hardly pick a key pass from 40 yards. Mikel is more in the build up of some goals that you seem to think, it's him who assists Hazard on the 1st pen vs Reading.

The double pivot is meant to be the link between the defenders and the attackers, help & cover the full backs on ball side. They have to feed the 3 man line (considering the AM should act as a midfielder, all 3 are sometimes at level with Torres). If we can't keep clean sheets and avoid alleged mistakes at the back it's mainly because the attackers don't press and don't ask the ball at all.

The 6 players left are over-exposed

oh well , mate if Xabi Alonso had been playing for us instead of Mikel , he would have created so many chances , not to mention he would have scored a few also . and well you are saying that its our attacking players fault that we are conceding lol ? seriously mate seriouslyyyy ?

[SeB 1,281]

oh well , mate if Xabi Alonso had been playing for us instead of Mikel , he would have created so many chances , not to mention he would have scored a few also . and well you are saying that its our attacking players fault that we are conceding lol ? seriously mate seriouslyyyy ?

Torres would have enjoyed a bit more of the ball on fast break. But it would not have changed much considering you can't run into space when youv' 3 attacking players and both full backs of your own team at level with you 20 yards from the opponent's goal line.

Attackers are the first defenders, so yes, I'm serious

[Backstreet09 499]

Torres would have enjoyed a bit more of the ball. But it would not have changed much considering you can't run into space when youv' 3 attacking players and both full backs of your own team at level with you.

Attackers are the first defenders, so yes, I'm serious

Oh well , i agree that Mata and Hazard idk why cuts inside so many freaking times ? like they are playing as strikers , but they do track back , and its the manager's job to tell them to close down the opponents. Well it would have changed so much , believe me a player like Xabi would complete the final puzzle , we just need to sign someone like him

[SeB 1,281]

but they do track back , and its the manager's job to tell them to close down the opponents.

Nope, they didn't either with AVB and Robbie, reason why we conceded that much sloppy goals in counter attack. Some sequences this season, otherwise that's really since Sunday we're able to see them applying the managerial instructions. What Benitez was brought for, I think

[Backstreet09 499]

Nope, they didn't either with AVB and Robbie, reason why we conceded that much sloppy goals in counter attack. Some sequences this season, otherwise that's really since Sunday we're able to see them applying the managerial instructions. What Benitez was brought for, I think

thats why they got sacked lol , i dont even remember Robbie making any notes . this team will improvee in a great great sense under Rafa

[super_frank8 186]

Exactly!!

The last three matches has proved to me that ramires is more important than mikel in the pivot. He makes more tackles, has more energy and stops counters for us.

We have been trying to find the best partner for mikel in the pivot instead of the best combination in the pivot. Ramires is the one that makes mikel look better, because every other person paired with him and the pivot was terrible. And I think ramires and lampard would be perfect against small teams that sit back and defend.

If people watch our games more often, they would see those chances that oscar creates for ramires or mikel and they always seem to shoot off target. If lampard was there we would have scored more goals. It will even make defenders more cautious of lampard and end up freeing mata for a pass.

Ramires and lampard would be more attacking, but that's the point especially against smaller teams. They will always sit back and mark our trio and a GOAL THREAT from the pivot would be a big boost. Ramires is already a boss on stopping counters and the rest of our player will pressure high up the pitch and win the ball early. Leading to more goals...

Ramires doesn't venture foward for brazil, so if paired with Lamps he will definately do the same and stick back.

Yep, couldn't agree with you more.

The fact is that we need to be more dangerous & provide more options going forward - because it is clear that we are running out of ideas in the final third time & time again - as well as simply lacking the quality to actually create & finish enough of them. & the only reason we are in this situation is because we have a player in the middle of the park who is incapable of scoring or providing goals. It doesn't make any sense to continue with a player like Mikel when we are no longer the same largely defensive-minded team we were last season (& let's face it, that has really been the only season he has performed to his potential) - because we now have the luxury of having so much genuine quality in Mazcar - the only real issue is how we can assist them in their efforts, which Mikel unfortunately does not do whatsoever. I don't really want to see a player like Hazard or Mata having to be forced to go all the way back into our own half to take the ball off Mikel just so we can actually get a decent attack going. It is making us extremely inefficient offensively & really doing no favours for anyone on the team when we are essentially playing without a striker anyway...

Anyone who thinks Ramires can't defend is clearly not watching the same games I have been. He makes far more impressive/vital tackles than Mikel does - whilst also giving away far less fouls because he actually has the pace to catch up to players rather than just grabbing at their shirts & nibbling & swiping at their legs once it is clear they are never going to reach them - as has become Mikel's trademark over the last 5 years. In fact, Rambo constantly has to cover for the wandering or simply static Mikel much of the time, & this is when he is supposedly meant to be playing the more attacking role of the pair. So I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that he has the discipline, as well as the fitness, to fulfill his defensive duties & cover for a more attacking-minded partner like Lampard & also push forward whenever he gets the opportunity to run with the ball into space, as he is one of the most effective players at doing so.

& he does have the ability to go forward & make something happen on occasion as well, it's just difficult for him when he isn't exactly the world class passer that is required to carve out clear cut chances at will - & I don't blame him for that at all, it's not his specialisation & there is nothing wrong with that. But with someone who does have that kind of ability next to him, he will not only be able to truly excel as potentially one of the best ball-winning midfielders around, but he will also flourish going forward by benefitting directly from Lampard's partnership & service for him too.

I'm really not convinced at the notion of Lampard being irresponsible with his defensive positioning too - I can think of countless occasions where he has tracked back & made potentially game-saving tackles on some of the most threatening opposition players (Messi/Iniesta/Gerrard to name a few) - many sliding from behind when he knows there is every chance of giving away the foul, but somehow the majority of the time he pulls it off when it matters most. & again, he is really just as good as Mikel at tackling, not because he happens to be particularly exceptional at it by any means - it's more because of the fact that Mikel really just isn't. But yes, for those of you who are somehow not aware of this/have been hiding in a cave for the last 10 years - Lamps CAN in fact tackle.

& he also happens to be extremely disciplined in getting back when we don't have the ball & need the extra men in defence. He's not the sort of player to over-commit going forward, he's intelligent & experienced enough to know when to go & when to stay. So when Ramires is going a full pelt with a lung bursting run towards the opponents goal, you are not going to see him abondoning all posts & getting ahead of the ball. He will push up WITH the attack, but remain behind it to cover - exactly the same way Ramires would do in the converse situation - & in reality the same way Mikel currently does for Ramires. The only difference being that it would actually allow the option of playing it back to someone who can create or score if they do receive the ball in that deeper position.

In reality, this partnership has all the makings of being an extremely effective one that will inevitably provide more chances as well as more goals with an actual specialised midfield passer & scorer, because that is what we are missing. Once he is back from injury, I can only pray that Rafa somehow ignores his over-conservative tactics in favour of actually making this team into the goal-machine it truly has the potential to be.

[SeB 1,281]

thats why they got sacked lol , i dont even remember Robbie making any notes . this team will improvee in a great great sense under Rafa

Not great sense, just relevant sense. Make your job with schollbook tactics and leave us with a Top 4 finish & the FA Cup

[Backstreet09 499]

Not great sense, just relevant sense. Make your job with schollbook tactics and leave us with a Top 4 finish & the FA Cup

Nope he will win his first Premier League title with us

[zolayes 14,489]

SEB ignore backstreet ..he is just trolling

[Muzchap 8,966]

Think @seb is right - we normally disagree, but cannot fault his logic here...

We have a really bad attacking shape - all our players converge, narrowing the game and playing through the middle - we also look very STATIC - we need more shape and player runs off the ball, to pull defenders around and open up space.

I think we are REALLY easy to defend against at the moment, we need to improve this, but as RB has only had 3 sessions, he focused on Defence - which was great, if he can bring the same organisation to our attacking play, then we really are in a good place...

I also hope he expirements with the formation a bit - (4-2-3-1) doesn't always appear to work properly with the players we currently have... he could try 442/352 etc - obviously when Sturridge is fit again...

Torres + Trio are guilty of dropping too deep, Torres should be on the shoulder of the last defender at ALL times - this normally forces the opposition to play 2 defenders next to Torres -which then automatically opens up space and stops those defenders joining in the attacking play.

Torres / or the Striker - really is the KEY piece on the pitch - get a good striker with great movement and they open up space all over the attacking third....

[NishC300 1,865]

You say that every game mate, give it a rest...

Facts are true. No matter when u say them.