Oscar

[didierforever 7,349]

why is he being compared to ,muller.

and not people like coutinho and ramsey?

more useful than looking at muller and madrid players. who are always bound to have high stats

We want to be the best team in the world along with the likes of RM, barca, bayern. What would a comparision with pool and arsenal players give us, 2 teams that are not in top4 presently.

[lucio 5,418]

We want to be the best team in the world along with the likes of RM, barca, bayern. What would a comparision with pool and arsenal players give us, 2 teams that are not in top4 presently.

a comparison of how so called good players in the same position, fare against the same opponents in the same league. its easier to get an assist vs almeria , where you can pass to ronaldo from 35 yards out.

the guy has 28 goals. theres going to be alot of assists to go around

i generally dont see as much value in cross league comparison, different dynamics, most teams have a budget of £2m over there.

bt if you and others think its useful, then by all means, but i wont alter my opinion on a chelsea player on la liga stats

[Barbara 15,149]

Barbara, I'd like to see if you agree with me or not since you're generally very level-headed with Oscar. I believe the main disconnect in the Mata/Oscar debate was the creator vs the central midfielder. Mata can make something out of nothing, all over the pitch making himself available for a return pass which seemed like always. Oscar is rigid in his positioning, his first touch can be awful at times (I always laugh when I see articles talking about his silky first touch), and his passing range and ability is nothing like his predecessor. However, he works his ass off, which generally gets fans on your side, and he's still capable of producing around the box. He doesn't really contribute to the buildup play like Mata, Hazard, or Fab.

That's where I think lies the problem. He doesn't contribute to the buildup like a #10 should - but he still produces at times like the match vs Newcastle. Fans who don't care about him contributing more to the team while we're on the ball say, "look at him scoring, look at him assisting" and then there are fans that notice he hasn't had a good game at all minus that moment of the goal/assist. His deficiencies have been masked by Fab becoming the best CM in the league and Eden elevating his play. God forbid one of them suffers an injury, we have to rely on an inconsistent 10 and RW to pick up the pace and then we're RIGHT back to last season, which is why it never made sense to me that Mata was never made the 10. Really, that was reflected in our inability to beat the lower sides. For our team's needs last season, Mata shouldn't have been on the wing.

I think the one aspect he improved this season compared to the two previous ones is his linkup with Eden (and has been also creating a good one with Cesc). It's been a very slow process, but I'm starting to see it happen. He's much more connected, aware and has a much better understanding now with Eden (and Cesc) than in previous years. That was one of the biggest advantages Mata had... his understanding not only with Eden, but about the game in general, with a killing vision are among his best qualities.

Oscar is miles away from catching up, but I've seen progress there. And that's what we need him to progress the most. If you look at the second goal, he was the one that passed with a first touch to Cesc and that has happened many times before this season between Cesc-Eden-Oscar regardless if before an assist or not.

He needs to get himself involved, he needs more consistency with his passing and vision. We've seen him give some amazing first touch passes, he has a good first touch, as well as good vision, good passing, good finishing. The problem is that he isn't consistent on any of those things and he isn't great in any of them either.

Mata had no space in this team, mate. The style José wanted didn't suit him and I think the way modern football developed, the last league he should have gone is the English. Mata is a classical playmaker that is also very weak physically, very slow and who needs the team to be built around him for him to produce his best outcome.Regardless of Oscar or Kevin, even if we didn't have either in the team, I don't see Mata playing consistently in a Mourinho's team. Two goals came yesterday from amazing pressing (Oscar involved directly in both pressing moments), we are quick to try to recover the ball after we lose it and Mata can't do it for many reasons.

Oscar may not be the answer or the best option for the position, but there's a reason Mourinho let go of Juan and regardless of who stayed, joined or will join, I support his decision 100%... Cesc is a good combination of Oscar and Mata, having the best of each - which is why I consider him, and not Oscar, as Mata's replacement. José knew he had a creativity issue with only Hazard in the team, then he brought Cesc. We keep dreaming about an improvement in the RW but I'm not sure José will pursue one... at least not this year.

[DYC. 7,542]

What wrong is that posters are basing MOTM voting and rating which for the most part is heavily influenced by overall performance ( in any sport) on result. Oscar scored two goals but his overall performance was anything but good/decent/great. I lost count on the amount of easy passes he messed up.

It's called performance rating for a reason.

According to WhoScored, Oscar played 80 passes at a 85% pass completion rate. Which 12 passes out of 80 didn't reach it's target. You're exaggerating. That said, he did annoy me with his at times wayward passing. But looking at the bigger picture, Oscar did perform well. Any player's job goes further than passing.

Rating a player's performance is subjective. What's more valuable, a beautiful pass setting up a goal (not directly assisting) or a great tackle dispossessing your opponent. Is a dribble going past two players more valuable than some excellent tracking work preventing runners from going through on goal? Does a goal line clearance trump a goal scored that ends up winning a match? Brilliant movemement vs brilliant passing? What is a passer without a receiver?

But decisveness is always key. I've seen Cristiano Ronaldo put in ordinary performances, score 2 goals and receive all the plaudits. Meanwhile, players like Modric, Ozil, Alonso would provide a brilliant performance. CR being crowned MOTM is still deserved because goals win games. Top all-round performances don't necessarily win you games. Still, one of the midfielders being awarded MOTM would've been deserved as well.

What I'm trying to say is, there is no one way of looking at football. Oscar was not my MOTM but saying others are wrong for picking him, or for saying he was quality, is an ignorant statement. Btw, ESPN rated him a 9, he received a 8.9 on WhoScored, 4.5 stars out of 5 on Goal.com, 8.5 from The Daily Mail. So it's not just the posters here like you said.

[didierforever 7,349]

a comparison of how so called good players in the same position, fare against the same opponents in the same league. its easier to get an assist vs almeria , where you can pass to ronaldo from 35 yards out.

the guy has 28 goals. theres going to be alot of assists to go around

i generally dont see as much value in cross league comparison, different dynamics, most teams have a budget of £2m over there.

bt if you and others think its useful, then by all means, but i wont alter my opinion on a chelsea player on la liga stats

wait, what?

so its fair to compare a CAM who is servicing lambert/borini/sterling as a striker or a CM who is servicing welbeck/grioud to a 17 goal costa but not fair when isco is compared to oscar? coutinho is a "decent" player and if people want oscar to be compared to him, then this is a sad day. coutinho is not anywhere near chelsea first team material, the likes of isco, koke etc are and hence the comparison.

this nonsense about la liga being easier than PL has time and again been proven to be crap especially considering how well the la liga teams are doing in europe and even in its general play. for every almeria there is a qphaha.

[Gilvorak 3,734]

Oscar already has as many assists as your boy (Coutinho) had last season despite feeding Suarez, Sturridge and Sterling so no you're wrong. Fact is he's outperforming every single one of the Young AM's this season bar James.

The fact some you genuinely believe Barkley (who Everton fans are begging to be benched) is better than Oscar is exactly why this I question the football knowledge of some you.

[Tomo 21,733]

What wrong is that posters are basing MOTM voting and rating which for the most part is heavily influenced by overall performance ( in any sport) on result. Oscar scored two goals but his overall performance was anything but good/decent/great. I lost count on the amount of easy passes he messed up.

It's called performance rating for a reason.

Tbf there was many games Mata was borderline anonymous then popped up with goal/assist and got POTY twice.

[Muzchap 8,966]

Oscar is finding some form at the right time.

His energy and work rate are vital to the way we play, as with Willian. Unpopular I know!

We have 16 cup finals in the league to win - 3 in the COC and plenty in other competitions - we're going to need all of our players and definitely OSCAR.

He's improving year on year and in a couple of seasons, I predict greater things from him.

[didierforever 7,349]

Oh, it's Club World Cup, fair enough. It's weird anyway. On Whoscored Isco has only 1 goal in the World Cup, in Transfermarkt he has 1 goal and 1 assist. Whoscored is usually right though.

Isco:

Whoscored.com - 4 goals, 5 assists.

Goal.com - 3 goals, 5 assists. (CWC not included).

Transfermartk - 4 goals, 10 assists.

Espn.com - 4 goals, 7 assists.

Honestly I haven't slept this last night so I'm tired and not willing to dig the truth behind the numbers.

http://int.soccerway.com/matches/2014/12/20/world/fifa-club-world-cup/real-madrid-club-de-futbol/club-atletico-san-lorenzo-de-almagro/1974876/(CWC match against lorenzo)

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/862060/Live/Spain-La-Liga-2014-2015-Real-Madrid-Cordoba(vs cordoba)

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/862098/Live(deportivo la coruna -2 assists)

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/862174/Live(levante)

http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/862155/Live(rayo valecano)

(the first and the fifth goal)

(the second and the 4th goal).

i cant be anymore thorough than this. have always felt that transfermarkt is one of the best sites for stats.

[Cescy 40]

I think 5 out of Oscar's 6 goals in the league have been the opening goals of the game. His assists are usually early in the game too. He's more decisive this season.

---

Player Appearances Goals Assists Minutes Minutes/(goals+assists)

oscar 26 7 7 1922 137

eriksen 26 8 4 2071 172

james 29 10 8 2130 118

KDB 25 6 13 2251 118

muller 23 11 9 1749 88

gotze 22 11 4 1641 109

isco 30 4 10 2044 146 (though to be fair he has played a very withdrawn role this season after modric's injury)

koke 28 3 15 2456 136

so stats-wise, he is only better than eriksen.

Ah yes contribution in the prestigious Club World Cup, Europa and against 3rd division Spanish sides. Even looking at your list Oscar fairs well against some of the best players in the world...

Comparison of Oscar, Isco, James, KDB, Gotze, Koke and Muller in their leagues. Quick let's make a £80m bid for James or Muller for their additional 0.04 or 0.03 respective contributions . If we can't get them, let's replace Oscar with Koke or Isco because... new toys. Forget how they fit our system, with our other players, if they are even an upgrade or opportunity cost.

Yeah let's be fair to Isco, but not our own player who drops deep regularly and defends way more than most of the people on that list...

It doesn't matter how much he improves with a few of you on this forum, the goal posts will just keep moving.

[didierforever 7,349]

I think 5 out of Oscar's 6 goals in the league have been the opening goals of the game. His assists are usually early in the game too. He's more decisive this season.

---

Ah yes contribution in the prestigious Club World Cup, Europa and against 3rd division Spanish sides. Even looking at your list Oscar fairs well against some of the best players in the world...

Comparison of Oscar, Isco, James, KDB, Gotze, Koke and Muller in their leagues. Quick let's make a £80m bid for James or Muller for their additional 0.04 or 0.03 respective contributions . If we can't get them, let's replace Oscar with Koke or Isco because... new toys. Forget how they fit our system, with our other players, if they are even an upgrade or opportunity cost.

Yeah let's be fair to Isco, but not our own player who drops deep regularly and defends way more than most of the people on that list...

It doesn't matter how much he improves with a few of you on this forum, the goal posts will just keep moving.

did u even bother to read the whole thing or in what context the stats had been provided? no, but lets just put our nose in the place where it does not belong and try and act like a big shot, is not that right?

oscar does do a lot of defensive work, and if you had bothered to read a couple of posts after i made this post, you would have seen it, but well who cares about knowing all the facts when you can ridicule a half known opinion.

anotehr awesome assumption that you made is that i actually want chelsea to buy any of them. canyou actually show me a sentence or a word where i have even implied such a thing? those were simply comparisions between CAMs on the same age group. so seriously mate, if you had bothered to atleast know the context or even bothered to read a bit further, everything would have been pretty clear to you.

[Victor Von Doom 258]

What a fantastic player. Love this guy

The criticism he gets is so unnecessary / undeserved

[bluesman2610 1,341]

What wrong is that posters are basing MOTM voting and rating which for the most part is heavily influenced by overall performance ( in any sport) on result. Oscar scored two goals but his overall performance was anything but good/decent/great. I lost count on the amount of easy passes he messed up.

It's called performance rating for a reason.

It was 12 misplaced passes for the game finished with 85% pass completion

[lito 180]

[Barbara 15,149]

Lol

[Special Juan 27,424]

That second goal was a thing of beauty.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,890]

It was 12 misplaced passes for the game finished with 85% pass completion

I'm not a big believer in stats and it's my guess that most people aren't either but they can't be dismissed altogether. Stats must be a part of the story but the reason people are so reluctant to put their full faith in numbers alone is that, without analysis, they can be misleading. 12 misplaced passes is a number but how to decide if that number is good or bad?

It's tempting to think we might learn something by comparing the number of passes misplaced by several players. That could be right, perhaps we might indeed get some answers, but for me they would still be only raw numbers. The real answers can only be revealed by watching and asking yourself questions like; would I have expected that player to do better in that situation? Do I think other players would have made more of that situation? Did the player get it wrong because of something which is lacking in his technique or was he just unlucky? Those sort of questions are more likely to lead to the useful answers in my opinion.

Thing is of course, those answers are subjective which is why the Oscar debate is so strongly argued on both sides. Speaking personally, my answers to those questions don't come out well for Oscar. The numbers themselves are not decisive for me but the impression I get from watching Oscar as he puts those numbers together is tougher to shake.

[Barbara 15,149]

It's tempting to think we might learn something by comparing the number of passes misplaced several players. That could be right, perhaps we might indeed get some answers, but for me they would still be only raw numbers. The real answers can only be revealed by watching and asking yourself questions like; would I have expected that player to do better in that situation? Do I think other players would have made more of that situation? Did the player get it wrong because of something which is lacking in his technique or was he just unlucky? Those are the sort of questions are more likely to lead to the useful answers in my opinion.

That's the very definition of nitpicking imo. Especially because every player is entitled to mistakes. It's when something becomes a routine that the problem starts.