🇧🇷 Oscar

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Did you actually read the context or did you just feel the need to be patronizing? The only reason I included FIFA/FM was because it is impossible to rate someones pace by pure observation. I assume that the developers of the game actually do some research instead of giving players a random number. Is that really that complicated?

@Cholo. Sometimes this forum just surprises me. There are some excellent members, and then there are... well you can guess the rest.

Is the context too difficult for you to grasp? The whole point was that people can share some underlining beliefs yet diverge a lot when it comes to specifics.

I feel that republicans and democrats explain my point in an easy to understand fashion. I was wrong apparently.

I was just joking about the absurdity of reading about Republicans and Democrats in the Oscar thread. Lighten up, mate...

Honestly, I never understood the Oscar discussion. It is just beyond my football understanding

[The Skipper 20,609]

Why dont you check FM and FIFA? They will give you the same answer you are expecting. Not exactly sure why that example is supposed to support your case.

To the others:

I really didnt think I would have to explain further, but apparently it is a hard concept for some.

FIFA and FM do not base their numbers on pure observation, but work with organisations such as whoscored, squawka and optajoe among others to determine the values.

In this scenario the other poster was writing that Firmino is significantly slower than Oscar while I disagreed. Since there was no way for either us to really prove our case, turning to this kind of database was the closest thing we could get to the truth.

Ideal? No, but when you cant get the answer on a silver plate, you go for what data you can find.

I seriously do not understand how anyone can turn this into "I believe computer games are reality". Am I being trolled or do people really have a hard time grasping this?

What you've said was fine, obviously FIFA and FM don't pluck their stats from thin air, especially when it comes to a player as well known as Firmino/Oscar.

[Barbara 15,149]

Did you actually read the context or did you just feel the need to be patronizing? The only reason I included FIFA/FM was because it is impossible to rate someones pace by pure observation. I assume that the developers of the game actually do some research instead of giving players a random number. Is that really that complicated?

@Cholo. Sometimes this forum just surprises me. There are some excellent members, and then there are... well you can guess the rest.

Is the context too difficult for you to grasp? The whole point was that people can share some underlining beliefs yet diverge a lot when it comes to specifics.

I feel that republicans and democrats explain my point in an easy to understand fashion. I was wrong apparently.

much before than computers - and therefore stats on videogames existed - people could say if a player has pace or not and compare one's pace to another's - by actually watching matches.

If you need that to help you to measure it, well, then carry on.

Also if you don't feel some of those numbers are delusional and random, well, I guess you haven't been spending enough time playing them though.

[Rekin 835]

I was just joking about the absurdity of reading about Republicans and Democrats in the Oscar thread. Lighten up, mate...

Honestly, I never understood the Oscar discussion. It is just beyond my football understanding

Fair enough. It can a bit annoying though to have people focus on a tiny aspect of a long post.

I can understand your take on it though.

@Barbara

Yes, it is not ideal to use values from a computer game, I understand that.

It is one thing to compare Mertesacker and Walcott though, and another to compare two players who are quite similar.

The main thing the video game reference was meant to show was that two separate huge football games have valued Oscar & Firmino to have almost identical pace. Surely that is a more credible argument than for one person to claim that he can see that one is much faster than another through a few youtube clips?

It was not meant to be absolute proof, just show that it is unlikely that the games would have put very similar values if there really was such a huge difference between them. Do you disagree with this?

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Why dont you check FM and FIFA? They will give you the same answer you are expecting. Not exactly sure why that example is supposed to support your case.

Its pretty elementary really, I don't need some video game to tell me what I can see for myself.

but since you want to use video games as a reference

http://i.imgur.com/oVl7S7M.jpg

http://fmscreenshots.weebly.com/hoffenheim.html

Its says here that Oscar is a 15 in dribbling and firmino is a 16... I would've thought Firmino was wayyyy better...I digress.

Flair Oscar is a 16??? and Firmino is a 17??? Something must be wrong here....

tackling Oscar is a 14 and Firmino is a 10???? Are they not paying attention over there at FM15???

Agility they are equals???

Decision making Oscar is a 15 and Firmino is a 12????

But most astonishing of them all is Oscar is a 16 for vision and Firmino is a 14?? are these scores out of 20?? What about all of Firmino key passes? don't they account for that??

Doesn't look like Firmino is determined enough either, maybe thats why he's still at Hoffenheim.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

What you've said was fine, obviously FIFA and FM don't pluck their stats from thin air, especially when it comes to a player as well known as Firmino/Oscar.

SO glad you said that!

[OhForAGreavsie 6,073]

FOOTBALL is what played is played on the pitch .. NOT on computer games ,,, Barbara is right .. .. I can play CHess against the best two players in the world

and get at worst two DRAWS ,,, .. you have too much faith in the "EXPERTISE" of programmers ,,, ,, fun ,, but NOT in the real world

Either I've misunderstood your point ZY or you're a heck of a chess player.

[Barbara 15,149]

Fair enough. It can a bit annoying though to have people focus on a tiny aspect of a long post.

I can understand your take on it though.

@Barbara

Yes, it is not ideal to use values from a computer game, I understand that.

It is one thing to compare Mertesacker and Walcott though, and another to compare two players who are quite similar.

The main thing the video game reference was meant to show was that two separate huge football games have valued Oscar & Firmino to have almost identical pace. Surely that is a more credible argument than for one person to claim that he can see that one is much faster than another through a few youtube clips?

It was not meant to be absolute proof, just show that it is unlikely that the games would have put very similar values if there really was such a huge difference between them. Do you disagree with this?

I couldn't say. I have never watched Firmino. not even when he was being talked by everyone.

It's just weird to see videogame data in a serious discussion about real life players.

I see a lot of people laughing at some rates at FIFA's cards when they come out. Also, whoscord and others sites that give rates to the players lack in so many aspects. I think they're good for exact stats, such as how many assists, tackles, clearances, goals, etc a player had. Everything that is created by a combination of things, loses a lot of real life aspects, and the rating is the worst of that all. The data is too exact to work in such a non-exact sport such as football. Apply it to basketball and volleyball and it works wonders, because those sports have much less variables. For example, what difference it really makes for basketball if a player has pace or not? If he can dribble or not? Stats that talk about shot %, fouls, 3-pointers, FT %, etc... make a lot of sense and can tell a lot about a player and a team, but in football the variables are more in quantity and quality, therefore some of those stats just make them look like clowns. The other day they had Cahill - after he made a mistake for a goal, but not directly - as one of the highest ratings for a match. I mean, come on, so if the guy doesn't make a penalty or fails in some very specific situations, it doesn't count as a mistake. Then his pass accuracy is high, he has a lot of clearances (it was a game we were fairly attacked by opposition), tackles, and whats not and his rating is sky rocketing when he was one of the worst players in the pitch, back away from balls, losing it sometimes, giving some very dangerous backpasses to the keeper etc...

I don't even like chances created stats, but those ratings are the most misleading stats in the specialized sites - can't about videogames because I don't play them.

But I'm not doubting any second about what you're saying on Firmino, as I said I don't know the guy at all.

[Rekin 835]

Its pretty elementary really, I don't need some video game to tell me what I can see for myself.

but since you want to use video games as a reference

http://i.imgur.com/oVl7S7M.jpg

http://fmscreenshots.weebly.com/hoffenheim.html

Its says here that Oscar is a 15 in dribbling and firmino is a 16... I would've thought Firmino was wayyyy better...I digress.

Flair Oscar is a 16??? and Firmino is a 17??? Something must be wrong here....

tackling Oscar is a 14 and Firmino is a 10???? Are they not paying attention over there at FM15???

Agility they are equals???

Decision making Oscar is a 15 and Firmino is a 12????

But most astonishing of them all is Oscar is a 16 for vision and Firmino is a 14?? are these scores out of 20?? What about all of Firmino key passes? don't they account for that??

Doesn't look like Firmino is determined enough either, maybe thats why he's still at Hoffenheim.

How convenient. So it is an acceptable source when you want it to be, but otherwise it is to be used as a counter to an argument? You really are horrible at this.

Stats like tackles do not need to be taken from FM or FIFA as we actually have the real values, and we know that Firmino do more of them.

Do you not understand that we substitute virtual values when we cant get real ones?

Pace is much harder to measure than the amount of tackles, which is why my reference was used.

Yes, some of the values from the game are contradicting what I said earlier, but it is quite irrelevant as the values I used in my previous argument are taken right from the real world.

There is also the problem with those games that more well-known players in bigger clubs get a bonus to their values. Take a look at how Matic has been upgraded from one version to the other, even though he is basically the same player as he was in Benfica.

Feel free to use caps and a massive amount of question-marks and dots to make your next point though, it really makes you appear more mature.

I couldn't say. I have never watched Firmino. not even when he was being talked by everyone.

It's just weird to see videogame data in a serious discussion about real life players.

I see a lot of people laughing at some rates at FIFA's cards when they come out. Also, whoscord and others sites that give rates to the players lack in so many aspects. I think they're good for exact stats, such as how many assists, tackles, clearances, goals, etc a player had. Everything that is created by a combination of things, loses a lot of real life aspects, and the rating is the worst of that all. The data is too exact to work in such a non-exact sport such as football. Apply it to basketball and volleyball and it works wonders, because those sports have much less variables. For example, what difference it really makes for basketball if a player has pace or not? If he can dribble or not? Stats that talk about shot %, fouls, 3-pointers, FT %, etc... make a lot of sense and can tell a lot about a player and a team, but in football the variables are more in quantity and quality, therefore some of those stats just make them look like clowns. The other day they had Cahill - after he made a mistake for a goal, but not directly - as one of the highest ratings for a match. I mean, come on, so if the guy doesn't make a penalty or fails in some very specific situations, it doesn't count as a mistake. Then his pass accuracy is high, he has a lot of clearances (it was a game we were fairly attacked by opposition), tackles, and whats not and his rating is sky rocketing when he was one of the worst players in the pitch, back away from balls, losing it sometimes, giving some very dangerous backpasses to the keeper etc...

I don't even like chances created stats, but those ratings are the most misleading stats in the specialized sites - can't about videogames because I don't play them.

But I'm not doubting any second about what you're saying on Firmino, as I said I don't know the guy at all.

Look, I have never claimed that stats can be used to eliminate all variables. I am not going to enter a debate on when they are valid and how to use them, Ive done it too many times before.

In this context I have seen Firmino many times (around 15 games with Hoffenheim), and I was combining this with a long list of stats earlier in the thread to show that out off all the players in the world, he was the only one I could see being an upgrade on Oscar while also retaining the "balance" oscar brings.

Then this guy got stuck on his pass success and have trolling around ever since; backtracking, ignoring arguments, putting words in my mouth etc.

Every time I prove him wrong (by showing him Oscar's world cup stats, explaining that Firmino is an excellent counter-attack player, showing him the productivity of the player, showing their similarity in pace) he just ignores that and keeps adding up BS that gets frustrating to answer.

I agree about WhoScored. It is far from perfect, but then again it does have its value when observing absolute values. It usually ignores the playing style of a team, but if you can add that to existing knowledge, then it becomes a much better measure.

Anyway, this has gone on long enough without really adding anything. I have made my point about everything I had to say in this topic, and replying to Chelsea Legend is nothing but a waste of time, that much is obvious to me now.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

How convenient. So it is an acceptable source when you want it to be, but otherwise it is to be used as a counter to an argument? You really are horrible at this.

Its not, that's the point, genius....

Stats like tackles do not need to be taken from FM or FIFA as we actually have the real values, and we know that Firmino do more of them.

But don't they get their information from Opta, Squawka and WhoScored?

Pace is much harder to measure than the amount of tackles, which is why my reference was used.

Clearly it isn't since Firmino has more tackles yet has a significantly lower rating. I bet the next thing you're gonna tell me is you don't know how they've come to these conclusions, but clearly there is some anomaly thrown in.

Yes, some of the values from the game are contradicting what I said earlier, but it is quite irrelevant as the values I used in my previous argument are taken right from the real world.

Oops I'm wrong, now you're only using the data provided when its CONVENIENT? Nice! So things like PACE where there isn't no raw data to analyze its best to go to FM15 but for TACKLES which is quantifiable by the very companies who compile the ratings for FM 15 is not reliable?

Mattlock I think its time for a commercial break.

EDIT: Forgot the CAPS!

[Jase 43,479]

I have to say, while Oscar may not have been great in recent times and he was pretty average against Villa, I did not expect that, especially the latter, has caused such a heated discussion/debate here. Think there have been like 15 pages worth of argument since Saturday!

Fun reading some of the posts though.

[The Skipper 20,609]

SO glad you said that!

His point remains. Oscar isn't exactly a pace merchant but Firmino isn't significantly slower. Oscar is slightly quicker but the difference is nowhere near as pronounced as you say they are.

The FM and FIFA games don't just pluck numbers from anywhere either so it's nowhere near as bad as you're trying to make it seem. He just used them to reinforce one slight point he was making and from what I've seen, there is no way one would say Firmino is significantly slower either.

[Viper22 2,418]

Skipper man.... I never thought i'd see you on the side of someone quoting FM and FIFA stats as fact (or any semblance of it).

I love both FM and FIFA and play them a lot. I also get very annoyed at people saying "Where is this possible? FM/FIFA?" to something innocuous like suggesting we could sign Reus/Pogba.

But you can't just quote numbers from them game and take them as gospel fact. You just can't.

Where has all this talk about Firmino come from? I admit I haven't seen much of him but are we really suggesting that a guy who isn't even a standout in the Bundesliga (he isn't that well known, he really isn't) could be a good option to come in and be better than Oscar? Of course it's possible that he could be amazing, but where are we getting this from?

Looking at his info, he's played for Hoffenheim and not to a level where he's renowned (at least in this country) and I like to think I have quite a good knowledge of the players around Europe if they come onto the radar due to performing at a high level.

No-one has really put forward a good argument for why there's a very good chance he'll be better than Oscar (there needs to be a very high chance, it's a huge risk to drop Oscar and shell out 20-30M on a player we're not sure about) and not for any other gettable player either tbh.

Coutinho is a very good player that I actually rate highly, but at best he's as good as Oscar when they have their best days and he has similar problems with consistency.

Unless Real go full retard and decide to sell Isco who is clearly better than Oscar, I don't believe there is an available player who is definitely better than him ATM.

[zolayes 14,489]

Either I've misunderstood your point ZY or you're a heck of a chess player.

no its easy ,,, you actually play one against the other ....I was only a county level chess player was better at Bridge

[Viper22 2,418]

Feel free to use caps and a massive amount of question-marks and dots to make your next point though, it really makes you appear more mature.

Dude, don't do stuff like this. You're putting forward well structured arguments but so is Chelsea Legend. Attacking the way someone writes (which isn't OTT anyway, e.g. the correct way to do an ellipsis (...) is with 3-4 dots, so he's not overdoing that either) just suggests you're losing an argument and resorting to churlish abusive tactics.

[The Skipper 20,609]

Skipper man.... I never thought i'd see you on the side of someone quoting FM and FIFA stats as fact (or any semblance of it).

I love both FM and FIFA and play them a lot. I also get very annoyed at people saying "Where is this possible? FM/FIFA?" to something innocuous like suggesting we could sign Reus/Pogba.

But you can't just quote numbers from them game and take them as gospel fact. You just can't.

Where has all this talk about Firmino come from? I admit I haven't seen much of him but are we really suggesting that a guy who isn't even a standout in the Bundesliga (he isn't that well known, he really isn't) could be a good option to come in and be better than Oscar? Of course it's possible that he could be amazing, but where are we getting this from?

Looking at his info, he's played for Hoffenheim and not to a level where he's renowned (at least in this country) and I like to think I have quite a good knowledge of the players around Europe.

No-one has really put forward a good argument for why there's a very good chance he'll be better than Oscar (there needs to be a very high chance, it's a huge risk to drop Oscar and shell out 20-30M on a player we're not sure about) and not for any other gettable player either tbh.

Coutinho is a very good player that I actually rate highly, but at best he's as good as Oscar when they have their best days and he has similar problems with consistency.

Unless Real go full retard and decide to sell Isco who is clearly better than Oscar, I don't believe there is an available player who is definitely better than him ATM.

I'm not using FM or FIFA to state a fact, just saying that Rekin's use of it was nowhere near as bad as CL11 is patronisingly saying it is.

Anyone that watched Firmino and Oscar wouldn't say that Oscar is significantly faster.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

His point remains. Oscar isn't exactly a pace merchant but Firmino isn't significantly slower. Oscar is slightly quicker but the difference is nowhere near as pronounced as you say they are.

The FM and FIFA games don't just pluck numbers from anywhere either so it's nowhere near as bad as you're trying to make it seem. He just used them to reinforce one slight point he was making and from what I've seen, there is no way one would say Firmino is significantly slower either.

But how is he gonna rely on FM15 for unquantifiable stats but ignore them when there is something quantifiable to be analyzed? Are they only useful when we're left to guess? That is the most ridiculous stance I've heard in quite some time.

And if its true that FM15 don't pluck stats from nowhere and can be relied on then this whole argument is coming apart at the seams, Oscar has better ratings than Firmino in a pretty much every category we've been analyzing and the ones where Firmino should be way better he's only slightly. I myself will acknowledge Oscar is without question a poor decision maker and hasn't really got great vision, yet he's much better than Firmino who apparently is a ridiculous passer(73%) and makes loads of incisive key passes.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Dude, don't do stuff like this. You're putting forward well structured arguments but so is Chelsea Legend. Attacking the way someone writes (which isn't OTT anyway, e.g. the correct way to do an ellipsis (...) is with 3-4 dots, so he's not overdoing that either) just suggests you're losing an argument and resorting to churlish abusive tactics.

I actually like it!

[Supermonkey92 1,428]

Oscar is not my number one choice, which is conflicting because I really like the guy and appreciate what a fully realised Oscar could bring to a team, I just don't think he's going to realise his potential.

But a moment of caution, it has been Oscar who has scored a lot of our best goals and has come up with moments of brilliance as much as others if not more this season.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Oscar is not my number one choice, which is conflicting because I really like the guy and appreciate what a fully realised Oscar could bring to a team, I just don't think he's going to realise his potential.

But a moment of caution, it has been Oscar who has scored a lot of our best goals and has come up with moments of brilliance as much as others if not more this season.

and he was purchased for £19.35M I would say we've gotten ridiculous return on the value.