🇧🇷 Oscar

[iseah100 5,612]

Oscar, along with Hazard, is our future.

[didierforever 7,349]

dont think coutinho is any better than oscar. definitely a better dribbler and but along the lines of workrate, defensive contribution, he does not come in the category.

fortunately, we already have 2 players who easily fulfil the required criteria to play the role that oscar does - willian and cesc. one of them should be given a run.

[Rekin 835]

Ummm... WHAT??? So you want a guy who attempts difficult passes but rarely connects on them and gives up possession at an alarming rate as our no.10???? hahahaha Dude... We are a possession based team who also play on the counter, what good is a CAM if he tries all these difficult passes and never connects them?

You, Skipper and Lionsden are just exposing yourselves mightily with these poorly constructed arguments. First you guys say you don't want Oscar because he's not good enough and attacks break down when its at his feet, that his decision making is poor. Then to counter that buy selecting a guy who is a poor passer, very slow and an even worse decision maker than Oscar when playing in a league that is way slower??? (BTW that's why DeBruyne is excelling the league fits his pace)

Brother, you do understand that the Premier is played at a break neck speed right? If you actually believe Firmino is a better option in the 10 than Oscar I can't really argue with you but I will say this, 73% pass completion rate is PALTRY and if you think Chelsea are supposed to be a top 5 team in the world having a 10 who can't complete 80% of his passes is hardly even premier league status....

Here are a few names from the premier league who complete 73% of their passes none of them play for top clubs....

Phil Bardsley 73.4

Paul Konchesky 73.3

Danny Ings 73

Joey Barton 73

Leonardo Ulloa 73

Aaron Cresswell 72.9

To name a few... I somehow doubt our board and Jose agree with you on this.

Do you feel more sophisticated when using big letters and adding a lot of dots? Do you feel more in charge when picking a few players who fit your argument regardless of the context?

I'm sorry but I have no intention of continuing this debate if you are going to use those mechanics, as this is neither a sandbox nor the british parliament.

Let me make one thing very clear. While it seems that Lionsden and Skipper have similar opinions about Oscar as I do, we all make our arguments separately. I am the one who would like Firmino, I do not think they have even mentioned him by name, so dragging them into my argument and piling us up together is another poor attempt to discredit our opinion.

Now, let us get to some basics straight.

First of all, Hoffenheim is not Chelsea. Second of all, Firmino neither is nor plays the same way as Oscar.

The important thing to gather from this is that you can not take take a simple statistic in isolation and compare them. You say Oscar completes more passes and loses possession less often, but that ignore so many factors.

Is Oscar our main attacking outlet? Does he try to dribble his way through the opposition often? No.

Firmino however fit that description for his team. A player who take on other players and try to lead the attack is always going to get dispossessed more often, and be pressured into a poor pass.

Oscar often pings the ball around, and have genius or hardworking players like Hazard and Willian around him, not to mention that he has two of the hardest working players in the league, Fabregas and Matic, behind him. You do realize I hope that it makes a huge difference?

Oscar got dispossessed a lot more in the world cup with Brazil when he had a different role and different players around him. Are you starting to understand the difference? Do you know what his passing % was there? 78%, in other words marginally better than those players you mentioned earlier as prime examples of being sub-par. Do you want more passing statistics from Oscar being in a different environment (as in the World Cup)? There were 143 players with a higher amount of passes/game. He was number 294 when it comes to pass success. Sure, many players ahead of him played fewer games, but it doesnt change the fact that his passing stats were abysmal when he had a more direct role than the one he has in Chelsea, and lets remember that he played in one of the tournaments best team.

Do you see what different circumstances can do a players statistics?

I could also play your flawed game and use the example of Mikel, who sits on a 90% success rate for his passes. He must be an amazing player then, we should put him as number 10 as he obviously will pick apart every defense with his homing beacons of passes.

Speed? Firmino is slightly slower than Oscar. You are being completely biased by just using the statistics that fit you. I at least had the decency to include those were Oscar was better than Firmino. Are we going to ignore that Firmino has the highest success rate of dribbles of all AMC's while according to you being extremely slow? Are we going to ignore that even though he has much worse players around him he still manages to accomplish more key passes? Are we going to ignore that he manages to complete more tackles and interceptions per game?

Firmino is the risk-taker in Hoffenheim, the one who makes things happen. Oscar is in no way that player in Chelsea. It would be a valid argument to speculate that if they switched positions, they could both do well in either team. That does however ignore that Firmino at the moment completes a combination of the role Oscar has right now, and the traditional role a 10 is expected to have.

Also, are you serious with your first sentence? He does obviously succeed with his difficult passes if he has a good bit higher of them than Oscar. What does it say about a player who has more key passes than Oscar but a lower general success rate? Key Passes does not measure attempted ones, but successful ones.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Do you feel more sophisticated when using big letters and adding a lot of dots? Do you feel more in charge when picking a few players who fit your argument regardless of the context?

Yes actually I DO.... lol.

Let me make one thing very clear. While it seems that Lionsden and Skipper have similar opinions about Oscar as I do, we all make our arguments separately. I am the one who would like Firmino, I do not think they have even mentioned him by name, so dragging them into my argument and piling us up together is another poor attempt to discredit our opinion.

they agreed with your argument so its fair grounds to lump them in.

The important thing to gather from this is that you can not take take a simple statistic in isolation and compare them. You say Oscar completes more passes and loses possession less often, but that ignore so many factors. Is Oscar our main attacking outlet? Does he try to dribble his way through the opposition often? No.

What is the point? You claim we need a guy who attempts difficult passes regardless of whether or not he is successful at them! That is poor! Look around Europe you will not find ONE decent no.10 whose pass completion percentage is lower than 75% I don't care if that person tries to attempt 80 yd passes, a no.10 for a top club can't have a worse pass completion percentage than Phil Bardsley!

Firmino however fit that description for his team. A player who take on other players and try to lead the attack is always going to get dispossessed more often, and be pressured into a poor pass.

How does this make us a better team???

Oscar often pings the ball around, and have genius or hardworking players like Hazard and Willian around him, not to mention that he has two of the hardest working players in the league, Fabregas and Matic, behind him. You do realize I hope that it makes a huge difference?

Yes we have a hard working team! And Oscar fits that mould, its the squad we've constructed. And this argument that Oscar is only doing well because of the players around him is poor. You can't possibly say that in this squad one player is leaning on another, they all have assignments and Oscar's is intrinsic to how we play. The fact that Firmino unsuccessfully tries difficult passes and dribbles doesn't in no way, shape or form make him a better no.10 for our team. As a matter of fact, with the way Jose likes to play someone like Firmino would be the antithesis. Poor passer, slow, makes terrible decisions. How are we supposed to counter? How are we supposed to break teams down that sit deep with a guy who passes worse than Ramires when under pressure?

Oscar got dispossessed a lot more in the world cup with Brazil when he had a different role and different players around him. Are you starting to understand the difference? Do you know what his passing % was there? 78%, in other words marginally better than those players you mentioned earlier as prime examples of being sub-par. I could also play your flawed game and use the example of Mikel, who sits on a 90% success rate for his passes. He must be an amazing player then, we should put him as number 10 as he obviously will pick apart every defense with his homing beacons of passes.

So now we're gonna compare the stats of Oscar's World Cup which represented him in a completely different role and in 7 games at the end of a long campaign? Man this straw man argument is gonna burn up quickly! Why are you comparing Mikel to Oscar and Firmino? The reason why I put those names in there is because nowhere in the premier league is there a no.10 who passes the ball so poorly, those numbers are reserved to rubbish players. Mikel is a very good passer too! his assignment has his making shorter passes than what is required from a deep lying playmaker.

Speed? Firmino is slightly slower than Oscar.

Are you mad? Firmino is a good two paces slower than Oscar!

Yes Firmino has good technique I've mentioned that but how is that going to make us a better team? We have dribblers all over the pitch. All you are demonstrating here is you don't understand how Oscar is being utilized in the team. He is not our playmaker, that is Hazard and Cesc... For them to be effective we need people to do the dirty work and that is where Oscar comes in. Its about balance and chemistry... We could have 4 of the best dribblers in the world on our team and we would lose if it wasn't also met with ball winning, tackles and tactical awareness. When Cesc goes forward Oscar knows to fall back and cover, when Hazard goes dribbling through the middle of the pitch, Oscar knows where to be to keep shape. Do I wish he was nicer on the ball? hell ya that would be fantastic but for all he does for the team and for what we got him for I'm content.

We have enough risk takers(as a matter of fact our actual no.10 is Hazard when you think about tactical deployment) Oscar provides stability and tactical awareness.

If FIrmino is all you say he is why hasn't he even been capped yet? Why is he at Hoffenheim? Is there no team in Europe that see's how vastly superior he is to Oscar and how much he would make a top 5 team that much better? Are all the scouts directors and managers missing something here? Or is it you who is romanticizing his lovely dribbling and ignoring his poor passing and tactical awareness? Hmmmm....

[iseah100 5,612]

Oscar starts at Chelsea, as picked by Mourinho. He is doing something right.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Oscar starts at Chelsea, as picked by Mourinho. He is doing something right.

What does Mourinho know?? He got rid of Mata and DeBruyne!! Kevin is the best player in the bundesliga!

[FabHazard 655]

Truth is everyone at chelsea see him as our future..we gave a new long contract to him....I will give time for oscar...if we want to go to next level as a team he has to improve his passing ,through balls and vision...he should not be making bad passes under pressure...He should spend extra hours at training...practicing long passes and through balls...may be learn from fabregas....i am sure that he can improve but for that he needs to train a lot and work hard!!

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Also, are you serious with your first sentence? He does obviously succeed with his difficult passes if he has a good bit higher of them than Oscar. What does it say about a player who has more key passes than Oscar but a lower general success rate? Key Passes does not measure attempted ones, but successful ones.

Joey Barton is better he makes 2.5 key passes a game... Jesus Navas makes 2.2.... Victor Moses makes 2.1.... Zlatko Junuzovic(who???) makes 2.4

[Rekin 835]

Yes actually I DO.... lol.

they agreed with your argument so its fair grounds to lump them in.

What is the point? You claim we need a guy who attempts difficult passes regardless of whether or not he is successful at them! That is poor! Look around Europe you will not find ONE decent no.10 whose pass completion percentage is lower than 75% I don't care if that person tries to attempt 80 yd passes, a no.10 for a top club can't have a worse pass completion percentage than Phil Bardsley!

How does this make us a better team???

Yes we have a hard working team! And Oscar fits that mould, its the squad we've constructed. And this argument that Oscar is only doing well because of the players around him is poor. You can't possibly say that in this squad one player is leaning on another, they all have assignments and Oscar's is intrinsic to how we play. The fact that Firmino unsuccessfully tries difficult passes and dribbles doesn't in no way, shape or form make him a better no.10 for our team. As a matter of fact, with the way Jose likes to play someone like Firmino would be the antithesis. Poor passer, slow, makes terrible decisions. How are we supposed to counter? How are we supposed to break teams down that sit deep with a guy who passes worse than Ramires when under pressure?

So now we're gonna compare the stats of Oscar's World Cup which represented him in a completely different role and in 7 games at the end of a long campaign? Man this straw man argument is gonna burn up quickly! Why are you comparing Mikel to Oscar and Firmino? The reason why I put those names in there is because nowhere in the premier league is there a no.10 who passes the ball so poorly, those numbers are reserved to rubbish players. Mikel is a very good passer too! his assignment has his making shorter passes than what is required from a deep lying playmaker.

Are you mad? Firmino is a good two paces slower than Oscar!

Yes Firmino has good technique I've mentioned that but how is that going to make us a better team? We have dribblers all over the pitch. All you are demonstrating here is you don't understand how Oscar is being utilized in the team. He is not our playmaker, that is Hazard and Cesc... For them to be effective we need people to do the dirty work and that is where Oscar comes in. Its about balance and chemistry... We could have 4 of the best dribblers in the world on our team and we would lose if it wasn't also met with ball winning, tackles and tactical awareness. When Cesc goes forward Oscar knows to fall back and cover, when Hazard goes dribbling through the middle of the pitch, Oscar knows where to be to keep shape. Do I wish he was nicer on the ball? hell ya that would be fantastic but for all he does for the team and for what we got him for I'm content.

We have enough risk takers(as a matter of fact our actual no.10 is Hazard when you think about tactical deployment) Oscar provides stability and tactical awareness.

If FIrmino is all you say he is why hasn't he even been capped yet? Why is he at Hoffenheim? Is there no team in Europe that see's how vastly superior he is to Oscar and how much he would make a top 5 team that much better? Are all the scouts directors and managers missing something here? Or is it you who is romanticizing his lovely dribbling and ignoring his poor passing and tactical awareness? Hmmmm....

They shared the basics of my opinion. Republicans and democrats both desire a democracy, but can hardly be put together on most issues.

Look, you show no understanding of how to analyze statistics, and you keep making claims about what I say, regardless if they are true or not. Why should I want to keep answering you when you keep being extremely biased and dismiss facts out of hand just because they dont fit your agenda?

You claim that I say we need a player who makes difficult passes regardless of whether he is good at them, but it is simply fantasy.

I said we need a more creative version of Oscar, and that Firmino has the stats to back him up for being that player. How you transform that into the above defies all logic, but it is starting to be a pattern with you; a lack of logic and reason.

In terms of his pass completion, it again shows that you keep ignoring what I explained. He plays in a far inferior team, and has a higher creative responsibility. Oscar tends to bring the ball from deep and just pass it around to other players who are expected to make the breakthrough. Firmino lacks that luxury, and he still eclipses Oscar in the defensive side of his play.

Look how quick you are to dismiss the world cup when it doesnt fit your agenda! What is this "completely different role" that Oscar had in the WC that makes it impossible to compare performances? Just because he played a fair amount of the minutes wide does not somehow justify having very poor passing stats. He does not spend 100% of his time centrally in Chelsea if that is what you thought. Do you even know what a straw man argument is? This is a direct comparison of the same player in two different environments.

It is really starting to annoy me that you make claims for what I have said that are not based on reality. I implied that the players around Oscar boost his stats, never that they were the only reason that he is doing "well".

It just baffles me how much garbage comes out of you. One of the greatest strengths of Firmino is how he plays in counters, and here you sit and ask how we possibly could counter with him in the team? Its just absurd from you to write that he makes terrible decisions and imply his "unsuccessful" dribbles when he was one of the most productive and highly rated players of Bundesliga last season, and shined against the two top teams when they played. Hoffenheim play defensively with quick counters. Please explain to me how Firmino got 16 goals and 11 assists if he is in any way detrimental to counters, I really want you to answer that (although I expect the standard "easy and slow league" answer nonsense). Only Marco Reus was more productive last season, and only four players have been more productive this season so far in germany.

I can in every shape, way and form say that we could do with a no 10 that is better than Oscar at key passes, technique and defensive duties.

How do you measure Firminos pace? I'm really curious about that.

I dont have a tracker in his boots, and I cant compare two people's pace by simply looking at them in different games.

The closest thing I can find is how two games that actually do have partnerships with organisations that do measure these things have valued the pace of the two players. The outcome is:

Oscar Pace Fifa15/FM15 - 81/15

Firmino Pace Fifa15/FM15 - 77/15

Oh, what is that now? These two behemoths of a game seem to completely disagree with your assessment of Firmino's pace. How is that possible? They seem to think that both have very similar pace. Im sure though that your eagle eye have spotted the difference a lot more accurately, and that these games have picked his pace from a hat. Totally rational explanation.

Also, it blows my mind how you completely disrespect me by ignoring what I write. I couldnt make it clearer that Firmino actually has better defensive stats than Oscar, and yet you ask me how bringing "another dribbler" into the team is going to improve us. Do you simply not understand that the deal with Firmino is that he matches or eclipses Oscar in defensive stats while also having a better technique and supplying more key passes while playing in a far worse team? I literally cant make this clearer.

Ask any hoffenheim player about Firmino; you will find that his strengths are his productivity from counters and extremely hard work.

So please stop writing about the limitations of Firmino when you seem to base your complete opinion of him on his passing completion (which is ridiculous to start with) and manage to get it completely wrong when discussing his shortcomings.

Why isnt he capped? He has played two friendlies for Brazil. I dont see why this would be a strong argument regardless. Why did Luiz start in favor of Miranda?

Why is he playing in Hoffenheim? He is 23, and plays for a club that do not need to sell and has performs well in the german league. Last season he was amazing, and I suppose most clubs want to make sure he can maintain that form before forking over the large transfer fee that he would cost. Why did Matic play in Benfica, Willian and Fernandinho in Schaktar, Martinez in Bilbao, Yaya in some Ukrainian team, Drogba in Guingamp etc? Not every player becomes a star at 18, I dont see why that would argue in your favor.

EDIT: Look, Im simply not getting through to you. It is perfectly fine if you disagree with me about Oscar, its just that most of your arguments are completely nonsensical. I will simply say that I agree to disagree and leave this conversation as it has bored me by now and appears to lead absolutely nowhere.

[Badboy 1,526]

Oscar to PSG £40m

Koke to Chelsea

Summer 2015, please.

That would be amazing lol what an upgrade !!!!!!!!!!

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

They shared the basics of my opinion. Republicans and democrats both desire a democracy, but can hardly be put together on most issues.

Look, you show no understanding of how to analyze statistics, and you keep making claims about what I say, regardless if they are true or not. Why should I want to keep answering you when you keep being extremely biased and dismiss facts out of hand just because they dont fit your agenda?

You claim that I say we need a player who makes difficult passes regardless of whether he is good at them, but it is simply fantasy.

I said we need a more creative version of Oscar, and that Firmino has the stats to back him up for being that player. How you transform that into the above defies all logic, but it is starting to be a pattern with you; a lack of logic and reason.

In terms of his pass completion, it again shows that you keep ignoring what I explained. He plays in a far inferior team, and has a higher creative responsibility. Oscar tends to bring the ball from deep and just pass it around to other players who are expected to make the breakthrough. Firmino lacks that luxury, and he still eclipses Oscar in the defensive side of his play.

Look how quick you are to dismiss the world cup when it doesnt fit your agenda! What is this "completely different role" that Oscar had in the WC that makes it impossible to compare performances? Just because he played a fair amount of the minutes wide does not somehow justify having very poor passing stats. He does not spend 100% of his time centrally in Chelsea if that is what you thought. Do you even know what a straw man argument is? This is a direct comparison of the same player in two different environments.

It is really starting to annoy me that you make claims for what I have said that are not based on reality. I implied that the players around Oscar boost his stats, never that they were the only reason that he is doing "well".

It just baffles me how much garbage comes out of you. One of the greatest strengths of Firmino is how he plays in counters, and here you sit and ask how we possibly could counter with him in the team? Its just absurd from you to write that he makes terrible decisions and imply his "unsuccessful" dribbles when he was one of the most productive and highly rated players of Bundesliga last season, and shined against the two top teams when they played. Hoffenheim play defensively with quick counters. Please explain to me how Firmino got 16 goals and 11 assists if he is in any way detrimental to counters, I really want you to answer that (although I expect the standard "easy and slow league" answer nonsense). Only Marco Reus was more productive last season, and only four players have been more productive this season so far in germany.

I can in every shape, way and form say that we could do with a no 10 that is better than Oscar at key passes, technique and defensive duties.

How do you measure Firminos pace? I'm really curious about that.

I dont have a tracker in his boots, and I cant compare two people's pace by simply looking at them in different games.

The closest thing I can find is how two games that actually do have partnerships with organisations that do measure these things have valued the pace of the two players. The outcome is:

Oscar Pace Fifa15/FM15 - 81/15

Firmino Pace Fifa15/FM15 - 77/15

Oh, what is that now? These two behemoths of a game seem to completely disagree with your assessment of Firmino's pace. How is that possible? They seem to think that both have very similar pace. Im sure though that your eagle eye have spotted the difference a lot more accurately, and that these games have picked his pace from a hat. Totally rational explanation.

Also, it blows my mind how you completely disrespect me by ignoring what I write. I couldnt make it clearer that Firmino actually has better defensive stats than Oscar, and yet you ask me how bringing "another dribbler" into the team is going to improve us. Do you simply not understand that the deal with Firmino is that he matches or eclipses Oscar in defensive stats while also having a better technique and supplying more key passes while playing in a far worse team? I literally cant make this clearer.

Ask any hoffenheim player about Firmino; you will find that his strengths are his productivity from counters and extremely hard work.

So please stop writing about the limitations of Firmino when you seem to base your complete opinion of him on his passing completion (which is ridiculous to start with) and manage to get it completely wrong when discussing his shortcomings.

Why isnt he capped? He has played two friendlies for Brazil. I dont see why this would be a strong argument regardless. Why did Luiz start in favor of Miranda?

Why is he playing in Hoffenheim? He is 23, and plays for a club that do not need to sell and has performs well in the german league. Last season he was amazing, and I suppose most clubs want to make sure he can maintain that form before forking over the large transfer fee that he would cost. Why did Matic play in Benfica, Willian and Fernandinho in Schaktar, Martinez in Bilbao, Yaya in some Ukrainian team, Drogba in Guingamp etc? Not every player becomes a star at 18, I dont see why that would argue in your favor.

EDIT: Look, Im simply not getting through to you. It is perfectly fine if you disagree with me about Oscar, its just that most of your arguments are completely nonsensical. I will simply say that I agree to disagree and leave this conversation as it has bored me by now and appears to lead absolutely nowhere.

This entire post is so poor... Brother I agree man lets just agree to disagree. I'm willing to side with Jose Mourinho and our board, we're 7pts clear, have scored tonnes of beautiful goals, are about to carry on in the Champions League... You've produced Firmino as a viable replacement for Oscar because you think he's more creative. You've based his speed on stats extracted from FIFA15 and FM15, that in of itself explains the level of conversation we're having.

Yes Chelsea supporters Firmino is the answer to making a 1st place club more first placer!

[lionsden 4,689]

They shared the basics of my opinion. Republicans and democrats both desire a democracy, but can hardly be put together on most issues.

Look, you show no understanding of how to analyze statistics, and you keep making claims about what I say, regardless if they are true or not. Why should I want to keep answering you when you keep being extremely biased and dismiss facts out of hand just because they dont fit your agenda?

You claim that I say we need a player who makes difficult passes regardless of whether he is good at them, but it is simply fantasy.

I said we need a more creative version of Oscar, and that Firmino has the stats to back him up for being that player. How you transform that into the above defies all logic, but it is starting to be a pattern with you; a lack of logic and reason.

In terms of his pass completion, it again shows that you keep ignoring what I explained. He plays in a far inferior team, and has a higher creative responsibility. Oscar tends to bring the ball from deep and just pass it around to other players who are expected to make the breakthrough. Firmino lacks that luxury, and he still eclipses Oscar in the defensive side of his play.

Look how quick you are to dismiss the world cup when it doesnt fit your agenda! What is this "completely different role" that Oscar had in the WC that makes it impossible to compare performances? Just because he played a fair amount of the minutes wide does not somehow justify having very poor passing stats. He does not spend 100% of his time centrally in Chelsea if that is what you thought. Do you even know what a straw man argument is? This is a direct comparison of the same player in two different environments.

It is really starting to annoy me that you make claims for what I have said that are not based on reality. I implied that the players around Oscar boost his stats, never that they were the only reason that he is doing "well".

It just baffles me how much garbage comes out of you. One of the greatest strengths of Firmino is how he plays in counters, and here you sit and ask how we possibly could counter with him in the team? Its just absurd from you to write that he makes terrible decisions and imply his "unsuccessful" dribbles when he was one of the most productive and highly rated players of Bundesliga last season, and shined against the two top teams when they played. Hoffenheim play defensively with quick counters. Please explain to me how Firmino got 16 goals and 11 assists if he is in any way detrimental to counters, I really want you to answer that (although I expect the standard "easy and slow league" answer nonsense). Only Marco Reus was more productive last season, and only four players have been more productive this season so far in germany.

I can in every shape, way and form say that we could do with a no 10 that is better than Oscar at key passes, technique and defensive duties.

How do you measure Firminos pace? I'm really curious about that.

I dont have a tracker in his boots, and I cant compare two people's pace by simply looking at them in different games.

The closest thing I can find is how two games that actually do have partnerships with organisations that do measure these things have valued the pace of the two players. The outcome is:

Oscar Pace Fifa15/FM15 - 81/15

Firmino Pace Fifa15/FM15 - 77/15

Oh, what is that now? These two behemoths of a game seem to completely disagree with your assessment of Firmino's pace. How is that possible? They seem to think that both have very similar pace. Im sure though that your eagle eye have spotted the difference a lot more accurately, and that these games have picked his pace from a hat. Totally rational explanation.

Also, it blows my mind how you completely disrespect me by ignoring what I write. I couldnt make it clearer that Firmino actually has better defensive stats than Oscar, and yet you ask me how bringing "another dribbler" into the team is going to improve us. Do you simply not understand that the deal with Firmino is that he matches or eclipses Oscar in defensive stats while also having a better technique and supplying more key passes while playing in a far worse team? I literally cant make this clearer.

Ask any hoffenheim player about Firmino; you will find that his strengths are his productivity from counters and extremely hard work.

So please stop writing about the limitations of Firmino when you seem to base your complete opinion of him on his passing completion (which is ridiculous to start with) and manage to get it completely wrong when discussing his shortcomings.

Why isnt he capped? He has played two friendlies for Brazil. I dont see why this would be a strong argument regardless. Why did Luiz start in favor of Miranda?

Why is he playing in Hoffenheim? He is 23, and plays for a club that do not need to sell and has performs well in the german league. Last season he was amazing, and I suppose most clubs want to make sure he can maintain that form before forking over the large transfer fee that he would cost. Why did Matic play in Benfica, Willian and Fernandinho in Schaktar, Martinez in Bilbao, Yaya in some Ukrainian team, Drogba in Guingamp etc? Not every player becomes a star at 18, I dont see why that would argue in your favor.

EDIT: Look, Im simply not getting through to you. It is perfectly fine if you disagree with me about Oscar, its just that most of your arguments are completely nonsensical. I will simply say that I agree to disagree and leave this conversation as it has bored me by now and appears to lead absolutely nowhere.

This is an excellent post. I really enjoyed reading it.

[OhForAGreavsie 6,072]

Truth is everyone at chelsea see him as our future..we gave a new long contract to him....I will give time for oscar...if we want to go to next level as a team he has to improve his passing ,through balls and vision...he should not be making bad passes under pressure...He should spend extra hours at training...practicing long passes and through balls...may be learn from fabregas....i am sure that he can improve but for that he needs to train a lot and work hard!!

This approach, believing that Oscar might improve and allowing him time to prove it, only works while he remains the best player we have in his position. We can't afford to give a player serious minutes simply to develop his game. A few dead minutes here or there is what such players get from Jose. In the current squad Oscar is often going to be, perhaps even always going to be, Jose's best option. He will therefore continue to be a regular selection for the rest of the season. The acid test will come in summer.

If those of us calling for Oscar to be replaced are right then Jose will already be thinking about it. If so he will surely make big efforts to recruit an upgrade during the next window. If, at the end of this season, there are no moves to find an alternative to Oscar, or to promote one from within, then I, and others who share my opinion, will have to admit that Jose does not agree with us. That of course would be a big thing.

[The Skipper 20,609]

They shared the basics of my opinion. Republicans and democrats both desire a democracy, but can hardly be put together on most issues.

Look, you show no understanding of how to analyze statistics, and you keep making claims about what I say, regardless if they are true or not. Why should I want to keep answering you when you keep being extremely biased and dismiss facts out of hand just because they dont fit your agenda?

You claim that I say we need a player who makes difficult passes regardless of whether he is good at them, but it is simply fantasy.

I said we need a more creative version of Oscar, and that Firmino has the stats to back him up for being that player. How you transform that into the above defies all logic, but it is starting to be a pattern with you; a lack of logic and reason.

In terms of his pass completion, it again shows that you keep ignoring what I explained. He plays in a far inferior team, and has a higher creative responsibility. Oscar tends to bring the ball from deep and just pass it around to other players who are expected to make the breakthrough. Firmino lacks that luxury, and he still eclipses Oscar in the defensive side of his play.

Look how quick you are to dismiss the world cup when it doesnt fit your agenda! What is this "completely different role" that Oscar had in the WC that makes it impossible to compare performances? Just because he played a fair amount of the minutes wide does not somehow justify having very poor passing stats. He does not spend 100% of his time centrally in Chelsea if that is what you thought. Do you even know what a straw man argument is? This is a direct comparison of the same player in two different environments.

It is really starting to annoy me that you make claims for what I have said that are not based on reality. I implied that the players around Oscar boost his stats, never that they were the only reason that he is doing "well".

It just baffles me how much garbage comes out of you. One of the greatest strengths of Firmino is how he plays in counters, and here you sit and ask how we possibly could counter with him in the team? Its just absurd from you to write that he makes terrible decisions and imply his "unsuccessful" dribbles when he was one of the most productive and highly rated players of Bundesliga last season, and shined against the two top teams when they played. Hoffenheim play defensively with quick counters. Please explain to me how Firmino got 16 goals and 11 assists if he is in any way detrimental to counters, I really want you to answer that (although I expect the standard "easy and slow league" answer nonsense). Only Marco Reus was more productive last season, and only four players have been more productive this season so far in germany.

I can in every shape, way and form say that we could do with a no 10 that is better than Oscar at key passes, technique and defensive duties.

How do you measure Firminos pace? I'm really curious about that.

I dont have a tracker in his boots, and I cant compare two people's pace by simply looking at them in different games.

The closest thing I can find is how two games that actually do have partnerships with organisations that do measure these things have valued the pace of the two players. The outcome is:

Oscar Pace Fifa15/FM15 - 81/15

Firmino Pace Fifa15/FM15 - 77/15

Oh, what is that now? These two behemoths of a game seem to completely disagree with your assessment of Firmino's pace. How is that possible? They seem to think that both have very similar pace. Im sure though that your eagle eye have spotted the difference a lot more accurately, and that these games have picked his pace from a hat. Totally rational explanation.

Also, it blows my mind how you completely disrespect me by ignoring what I write. I couldnt make it clearer that Firmino actually has better defensive stats than Oscar, and yet you ask me how bringing "another dribbler" into the team is going to improve us. Do you simply not understand that the deal with Firmino is that he matches or eclipses Oscar in defensive stats while also having a better technique and supplying more key passes while playing in a far worse team? I literally cant make this clearer.

Ask any hoffenheim player about Firmino; you will find that his strengths are his productivity from counters and extremely hard work.

So please stop writing about the limitations of Firmino when you seem to base your complete opinion of him on his passing completion (which is ridiculous to start with) and manage to get it completely wrong when discussing his shortcomings.

Why isnt he capped? He has played two friendlies for Brazil. I dont see why this would be a strong argument regardless. Why did Luiz start in favor of Miranda?

Why is he playing in Hoffenheim? He is 23, and plays for a club that do not need to sell and has performs well in the german league. Last season he was amazing, and I suppose most clubs want to make sure he can maintain that form before forking over the large transfer fee that he would cost. Why did Matic play in Benfica, Willian and Fernandinho in Schaktar, Martinez in Bilbao, Yaya in some Ukrainian team, Drogba in Guingamp etc? Not every player becomes a star at 18, I dont see why that would argue in your favor.

EDIT: Look, Im simply not getting through to you. It is perfectly fine if you disagree with me about Oscar, its just that most of your arguments are completely nonsensical. I will simply say that I agree to disagree and leave this conversation as it has bored me by now and appears to lead absolutely nowhere.

Excellent post.

[Barbara 15,149]

When one of the arguments about real life players has scores and rates on FIFA and Football Manager I know I should abort thread.

Not only keyboard warriors but also joysticks heroes around here.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

When one of the arguments about real life players has scores and rates on FIFA and Football Manager I know I should abort thread.

Not only keyboard warriors but also joysticks heroes around here.

I stopped at Republicans and Democrats!

[Rekin 835]

When one of the arguments about real life players has scores and rates on FIFA and Football Manager I know I should abort thread.

Not only keyboard warriors but also joysticks heroes around here.

Did you actually read the context or did you just feel the need to be patronizing? The only reason I included FIFA/FM was because it is impossible to rate someones pace by pure observation. I assume that the developers of the game actually do some research instead of giving players a random number. Is that really that complicated?

@Cholo. Sometimes this forum just surprises me. There are some excellent members, and then there are... well you can guess the rest.

Is the context too difficult for you to grasp? The whole point was that people can share some underlining beliefs yet diverge a lot when it comes to specifics.

I feel that republicans and democrats explain my point in an easy to understand fashion. I was wrong apparently.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

Did you actually read the context or did you just feel the need to be patronizing? The only reason I included FIFA/FM was because it is impossible to rate someones pace by pure observation. I assume that the developers of the game actually do some research instead of giving players a random number. Is that really that complicated?

I imagine its hard to grasp for those who don't play video games. And yes I know EA Sports' modo "if its in the game..." And no its not hard to base someone pace by pure observation. Case in point who is faster John Terry or Willian?

Maybe my ability to judge a players pace by eye sight is much more acute to that of yours... nothing to be ashamed of, I'm sure FM and FIFA are good resources too.

[zolayes 14,489]

Did you actually read the context or did you just feel the need to be patronizing? The only reason I included FIFA/FM was because it is impossible to rate someones pace by pure observation. I assume that the developers of the game actually do some research instead of giving players a random number. Is that really that complicated?

@Cholo. Sometimes this forum just surprises me. There are some excellent members, and then there are... well you can guess the rest.

Is the context too difficult for you to grasp? The whole point was that people can share some underlining beliefs yet diverge a lot when it comes to specifics.

I feel that republicans and democrats explain my point in an easy to understand fashion. I was wrong apparently.

FOOTBALL is what played is played on the pitch .. NOT on computer games ,,, Barbara is right .. .. I can play CHess against the best two players in the world

and get at worst two DRAWS ,,, .. you have too much faith in the "EXPERTISE" of programmers ,,, ,, fun ,, but NOT in the real world

[Rekin 835]

I imagine its hard to grasp for those who don't play video games. And yes I know EA Sports' modo "if its in the game..." And no its not hard to base someone pace by pure observation. Case in point who is faster John Terry or Willian?

Maybe my ability to judge a players pace by eye sight is much more acute to that of yours... nothing to be ashamed of, I'm sure FM and FIFA are good resources too.

Why dont you check FM and FIFA? They will give you the same answer you are expecting. Not exactly sure why that example is supposed to support your case.

To the others:

I really didnt think I would have to explain further, but apparently it is a hard concept for some.

FIFA and FM do not base their numbers on pure observation, but work with organisations such as whoscored, squawka and optajoe among others to determine the values.

In this scenario the other poster was writing that Firmino is significantly slower than Oscar while I disagreed. Since there was no way for either us to really prove our case, turning to this kind of database was the closest thing we could get to the truth.

Ideal? No, but when you cant get the answer on a silver plate, you go for what data you can find.

I seriously do not understand how anyone can turn this into "I believe computer games are reality". Am I being trolled or do people really have a hard time grasping this?