Politics & Stuff

[haranr 485]

  On 14/07/2014 at 22:21, Stingray said:

1. Control is like a wet bar of soap. The harder you squeeze, the further it flies.

2. Drastically improve conditions to get Hamas out of order - as i said before, it is the agent israel put there to undermine PLO power that bites now.

3. Hope this creates a valid discussion partner, which you lost with the decline of PLO. You will need the peoples support for this.

4. Go for gradual full integration to actieve this.

5. How: full participation of the palestines - eventually. But start with the fundamentals - bit by bit. Give freedom and hope to them. It sounds fluffy but it really isnt. Self determination, freedom of movement, clarity about returning to their land ( or the impossibility of it)

6. Time ....... Too much time.

The alternative is to continue which is a ticking time bomb for the Middle East.

How can Israel improve conditions?? With who's money?? It's not simple. The Israeli community would not like that. Their money flies there...'Hope' is not good enough!!

[Sir Mikel OBE 4,920]

  On 14/07/2014 at 21:33, haranr said:

Sadly, this conflict won't end soon. Both sides need to change approach towards peace. I will do my best as an Israeli citizen who recruits in less than two weeks to change the approach of many right-wing Israelis. I can't force but I can try and I have succeed in the past. An approach that will lead to a solution. I hope people at the other side are doing the same if possible.

Man what a time to be called up

You just turned 18?

[haranr 485]

  On 14/07/2014 at 22:21, Stingray said:

1. Control is like a wet bar of soap. The harder you squeeze, the further it flies.

2. Drastically improve conditions to get Hamas out of order - as i said before, it is the agent israel put there to undermine PLO power that bites now.

3. Hope this creates a valid discussion partner, which you lost with the decline of PLO. You will need the peoples support for this.

4. Go for gradual full integration to actieve this.

5. How: full participation of the palestines - eventually. But start with the fundamentals - bit by bit. Give freedom and hope to them. It sounds fluffy but it really isnt. Self determination, freedom of movement, clarity about returning to their land ( or the impossibility of it)

6. Time ....... Too much time.

The alternative is to continue which is a ticking time bomb for the Middle East.

I will repeat! If Israel does all that?? Can you promise there will be peace and no 'terror' state?

[haranr 485]

  On 14/07/2014 at 22:28, mesousa said:

Man what a time to be called up

You just turned 18?

Yes. It's no worries for me though.. I want to join the army.

[Dion 2,476]

  On 14/07/2014 at 22:28, haranr said:

I will repeat! If Israel does all that?? Can you promise there will be peace and no 'terror' state?

I think we can promise you that it has a better chance to achieve peace than killing palestinians and making their lives miserable, this is a way I know for sure won't bring peace. As corny as it sounds, violence only generates more violence.

[haranr 485]

  On 14/07/2014 at 22:34, Dion said:

I think we can promise you that it has a better chance to achieve peace than killing palestinians and making their lives miserable, this is a way I know for sure won't bring peace. As corny as it sounds, violence only generates more violence.

Israel does not kill for fun. Israel does not want to kill civilians. Unfortunately they do kill innocent civilians that stand in the way to stop 'terror' (I do not approve that but it happenes and Israel must defend itself). I will ask again. Can the 'international community' promise that if Israel acts right, there will be peace and quiet from the Palestines? I have studied that and there is no promising such a thing. I personally think Israel should follow back to what Rabin did but I understand the claim of many Israelis who say that it's a very naive move that can cause lots of trouble in the future. 'REAL TROUBLE' not like Hamas shooting a couple of 'shit' rockets from Gaza. This is not easy.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

  On 14/07/2014 at 22:23, haranr said:

End the attack? Sure. End the siege on Gaza? Sure. Will Hamas stop shooting??

Stop making new settlements you shouldn't have said. It's obvious and a fucking disgrace.Offer them improved living conditions with who's money? The state of Israel is not rich. Can you promise that the Islamic radicals only seek good life?? That is not true. Their ideology is above all. Can you promise that while most Palestines have a better life they won't let Hamas take control? You forgot Hamas are not democrats. Hamas will take power in force if needed. One integrated state with people of all religions living side by side with equality IS NOT possible. It's something I wish would have happened but with all the history of this conflict (hatred etc..) It's not possible.

'True peace' is not the target atm. The target is 'cold peace' simply because it's the reality right now. Two states is the soultion. The Israeli nation WILL HAVE given the Palestines a state IF they were promised it will 100% lead to peace or simply a better situation. Sadly, you are not aware that the majorty of the innocent Palestines are ruled by 'bad' rulers such as Hamas. In the West Bank they are ruled by a bunch of corrupt men who will likley lose their control to a more radical Islamic group in the very moment the Palestines are given a state. ATM, non of the sides are 'true' partners for peace.

Of course there are no guarantees, but that is the most likely, if not the ONLY way peace can be achieved.

To begin with, the attack nor the siege is or even can stop the rockets. This has already been proved. So it's not like you're risking losing anything with ending them.

Better living conditions does not mean spending a lot of money. In fact, your state spends A LOT on making their lives miserable. You can make their lives a million times betetr by addressing these issues:

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  On 11/07/2014 at 20:24, CHOULO19 said:

You can't seriously take this last 'battle' separately and completely out of context like this. We both know who 'started' the whole conflict if you go back and who was living peacefully and who brought in people from all over the world to kick them out of their homes and take their places. But let's forget all that for second and look at the living conditions of these people and what drove them to launch these rockets.

The living conditions for the Palestinians resemble so much the stereotypical conditions of oppressed people living without their freedom that at times I feel it's bordering on funny! You know those bad American action movies or that episode of Kim Possible? Where the hero travels to the future and finds that the evil dictator has taken over the world and everyone is being oppressed by his large and powerful army that monitors and controls everything? It's really funny/tragic how much the living conditions of the Palestinians looks like some footage out of those movies.

They live in an open air prison. Their whole area is surrounded by kilometers and kilometers of high prison walls with sniper towers in them:

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They live in grossly over-crowded neighborhoods in below poverty levels (Gaza is one of the highest population density in the world with about 5000 people per squared Km). The Israeli government controls everything in their in lives, from the amount of water, gas and fuel they can consume to when they can and can't have electrical power. But even that, they are not allowed to have peacefully with civilian houses being destroyed on regular basis and it's inhabitants made homeless (over 60,000 demolished houses IIRC) to be replaced by more illegal settlements:

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And if that is not enough they are constantly under methodical racist segregation and harassment. They have their number one source of income, olive trees, uprooted regularly by the IDF:

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They can be arrested whenever the army likes and for whatever reason or even without one. They can be detained indefinitely and without trail. When they are trialed, they are prosecuted using military law not the Israeli civilian laws. Forget trials and laws, in some mixed areas, Palestinians are even forced to take different roads!

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On the other hand, Israeli settlers get away with abusing and beating Palestinians on a regular basis. Every year, tens of Palestinians are assaulted, shot and even killed by Israeli settlers. They are treated worse than animals and no one does anything about it.

And this is just the tip of the iceberg. The atrocities against Palestinians are countless. And they are only getting worse. Every year they are losing more land, losing more of what's left of their basic rights of living. You see, as much as I hate Zionism, I just have to respect the intelligence of how Zionists go about their business. Because you can't erase the people of a whole nation in a single war, and they know that. But over a hundred years you can slowly take their land, slowly decrease their numbers in the country, slowly take away their rights, slowly take away the support they get from the neighboring nations and the empathy they get from foreigners, very slowly dehumanize them with your propaganda until everyone, including yourself, don't believe they are equal humans anymores. And in another hundred years or two they would probably have succeeded in getting rid of all the Palestinians in the country and would most likely have set their target on further expanding their boundaries. From the Nile to the Euphrates, right?

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The people of Palestine have two choices and no third: To resist or to simply cease to exist. But, this is not a movie. Unfortunately, the resistance cannot be led by a perfect Platonic hero (or Kim Possible and genetically enhanced rats). It is, and has always been, led by people that far from perfect. But these incredibly corrupt people change and have changed many times, but what your government knows and tries to convince you otherwise, is that the resistance will continue long after Fateh and Hamas as long as there are Palestinians. Because the resistance is an idea and a choice of the people, not only that, it is their only choice.

Again, there are no guarantees, but history shows that extremists rise as a result of extreme situations. In fact Hamas themselves are living proof of that. Go back and look into the past 66 years, especially the last 32 years, every single time Israel have launched a war to end a resistance, a stronger and more radical one has emerged from the ashes.

Right now, you can talk about Hamas using civilians as shields all you want, but the fact is, the absolute majority of Gaza is behind Hamas and rooting for them. The power is not for Hamas, the power is always for the people. If Hamas does anything that is against the will of the people they will be rejected by the Palestinian society. A resistance has nothing if not the people.

Human history teaches us that giving people freedom and a good life is the only way to possibly get rid of extremism. The instinct to live a happy life transcends any thoughts beliefs or ideologies. I cannot guarantee that will happen in Palestine, but I CAN guarantee that there will never be any hopes of peace with the continued violence. All you will get is even more extremism.

I won't go into the one-state discussion further because, as I said, I do not believe it is possible in the foreseeable future. But I will say that the two-states only widens the gap and confirms the differences that are the origin of the conflict. It can never be a long-term solution.

[Dion 2,476]

  On 14/07/2014 at 22:47, haranr said:

Israel does not kill for fun. Israel does not want to kill civilians. Unfortunately they do kill innocent civilians that stand in the way to stop 'terror' (I do not approve that but it happenes and Israel must defend itself). I will ask again. Can the 'international community' promise that if Israel acts right, there will be peace and quiet from the Palestines? I have studied that and there is no promising such a thing. I personally think Israel should follow back to what Rabin did but I understand the claim of many Israelis who say that it's a very naive move that can cause lots of trouble in the future. 'REAL TROUBLE' not like Hamas shooting a couple of 'shit' rockets from Gaza. This is not easy.

That's why Stingray said there must be a leap of faith. Nobody can assure Israel it will happen. What can be assured is if you continue "defending" yourself it won't stop until either side is completely destroyed. You guys could start using the money which will be saved from not spending in military actions to help reaching the goal of peace.

[haranr 485]

  On 14/07/2014 at 22:48, CHOULO19 said:

Of course there are no guarantees, but that is the most likely, if not the ONLY way peace can be achieved.

To begin with, the attack nor the siege is or even can stop the rockets. This has already been proved. So it's not like you're risking losing anything with ending them.

Better living conditions does not mean spending a lot of money. In fact, your state spends A LOT on making their lives miserable. You can make their lives a million times betetr by addressing these issues:

  Reveal hidden contents

Again, there are no guarantees, but history shows that extremists rise as a result of extreme situations. In fact Hamas themselves are living proof of that. Go back and look into the past 66 years, especially the last 32 years, every single time Israel have launched a war to end a resistance, a stronger and more radical one has emerged from the ashes.

Right now, you can talk about Hamas using civilians as shields all you want, but the fact is, the absolute majority of Gaza is behind Hamas and rooting for them. The power is not for Hamas, the power is always for the people. If Hamas does anything that is against the will of the people they will be rejected by the Palestinian society. A resistance has nothing if not the people.

Human history teaches us that giving people freedom and a good life is the only way to possibly get rid of extremism. The instinct to live a happy life transcends any thoughts beliefs or ideologies. I cannot guarantee that will happen in Palestine, but I CAN guarantee that there will never be any hopes of peace with the continued violence. All you will get is even more extremism.

I won't go into the one-state discussion further because, as I said, I do not believe it is possible in the foreseeable future. But I will say that the two-states only widens the gap and confirms the differences that are the origin of the conflict. It can never be a long-term solution.

I agree 100 percent.

As you said, Of course there are no guarantees, but that is the most likely, if not the ONLY way peace can be achieved.

Sadly, most Israelis need that 'guarantee' and you MUST admit they have a point. I support your claims 100 percent though.

They can choose to say "We want peace, we do not want to fight, we want a country". The shit right-wing Israeli goverment will delay them from a state as long as they can but in the end they will have to give it to them. It's a better approach than resist with 'terror'.

[haranr 485]

  On 14/07/2014 at 22:54, Dion said:

That's why Stingray said there must be a leap of faith. Nobody can assure Israel it will happen. What can be assured is if you continue "defending" yourself it won't stop until either side is completely destroyed. You guys could start using the money which will be saved from not spending in military actions to help reaching the goal of peace.

Correct except that last part "You guys could start using the money which will be saved from not spending in military actions to help reaching the goal of peace."

[Muzchap 8,966]

  On 14/07/2014 at 19:30, Stingray said:

Muzchap, i like you. But this is happenings as are the plus 600 pictures of people being bombed in a de facto prison. To do nothing is a crime. It would be the same as to do nothing in the Shoah. Its a responsability. You seem to think stuff is pretty ok, but it is nuts. To think you can let them argue it out is the same as say : let the Warschau getto people talk it out with the occupier. Im not even kidding here. Get some background plz, i beg you. Even though i agree this is a minority

Hey - where have I ever said its ok?

Never

I said as a World we haven't progressed since Medieval times?

The point I'm trying to make is that extremists on both sides are the cause, whilst the 'majority' of innocent people are killed, maimed and traumatised beyond belief...

So there are a bunch of arseholes who think its cool to relish killing people - yet they scream outrage if they or their family are hurt. These guys are hypocrites first and foremost - terrible people second...

There are no 'winners' in a war - just one bigger loser than the other.

This conflict is akin to Pyrrichs victory - one side will claim victory, but at what cost?

The only sensible resolution is a forced ceasefire immediately - then negotiations - via a 3rd party intermediary - this has to stop!

And whilst not on the same scale - my family suffered during the IRA conflict and 3 of my cousins were killed in a bomb blast - all innocent people at a party - not one militant there!

So I'm not being blasé about this - I just struggle to comprehend its 2014 and this madness continues...

[Dion 2,476]

  On 14/07/2014 at 22:56, haranr said:

Correct except that last part "You guys could start using the money which will be saved from not spending in military actions to help reaching the goal of peace."

If you took the leap of faith and ceased fire wouldn't you guys be saving some money in weaponry? I would think so. From what I've heard wars are expensive.

[haranr 485]

  On 14/07/2014 at 23:02, Dion said:

If you took the leap of faith and ceased fire wouldn't you guys be saving some money in weaponry? I would think so. From what I've heard wars are expensive.

The money that we could have 'earned' from that would be better moved into the economy.

Again, the situation in Israel financially isn't good. The majority of the people are not living 'well' they would not appreciate that their money goes to other people, not citizens, and that is 100 % legitimate.

[Dion 2,476]

  On 14/07/2014 at 23:06, haranr said:

The money that we could have 'earned' from that would be better moved into the economy.

Wouldn't it be good for economy to work in a state of peace and being able to have a commercial partner that lives just by your borders? Wars are wonderful for the economy. For the economy of the countries supplying you, because your labor force is occupied fighting the enemy, not producing any trading goods, thus making a case for importing weaponry, more food etc. Good for them, definitely not good for you. Achieving peace with your neighbors is a good way to improve your economy.

[haranr 485]

  On 14/07/2014 at 23:11, Dion said:

Wouldn't it be good for economy to work in a state of peace and being able to have a commercial partner that lives just at your border? Wars are wonderful for the economy. For the economy of the countries supplying you, because your labor force is occupied fighting the enemy, not producing any trading goods, thus making a case for importing weaponry, more food etc. Good for them, definitely not good for you. Achieving peace with your neighbors is a good way to improve your economy.

No. You are simply wrong not because what you are saying is wrong. What you are saying is true but you don't understand the situation.

[Dion 2,476]

  On 14/07/2014 at 23:28, haranr said:

No. You are simply wrong not because what you are saying is wrong. What you are saying is true but you don't understand the situation.

Then explain it to me. I'm trying to understand what the problem is.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

  On 14/07/2014 at 22:55, haranr said:

I agree 100 percent.

As you said, Of course there are no guarantees, but that is the most likely, if not the ONLY way peace can be achieved.

Sadly, most Israelis need that 'guarantee' and you MUST admit they have a point. I support your claims 100 percent though.

They can choose to say "We want peace, we do not want to fight, we want a country". The shit right-wing Israeli goverment will delay them from a state as long as they can but in the end they will have to give it to them. It's a better approach than resist with 'terror'.

You also have to remember something buddy, such a proactive peaceful approach by Israel, would put neighbouring countries in a tight spot. They will be forced to help out maintain such achievements and as crazy as this might sound they will actually face Hamas or any other Islamic extremist group that rises. Btw such cooperation between Israel and Egypt already exists but very limited. The Egyptian military has been fighting on daily basis in Sinai now for months and taking out extremists. Some of which are Hamas members. Now that means there is a clear breach of the peace treaty between Egypt and Israel. Yet Israel does nothing about it. You know why? Because both of them agreed on it, as extremists might target Israel from Sinai, causing a conflict between Egypt and Israel. Countries like Egypt and others will cooperate with Israel to end extremists. Actually you will have more partners than you think. Strategic partners.

[Dion 2,476]

I'm going to elaborate an analogy to showcase more or less how I see the situation. And forgive me if it ends up sounding a tad simplistic or if I got something wrong.

You see, I have been living in this house for quite some years now. Then one day, out of the blue, someone knocks at my door and says that this dude who is 6'6'' tall (while I am 5'10'') has the right to be living in my house. Of course I don't like it and I want to fight him and take him out. But in the end he's stronger and wins - as I don't have anywhere else to go, I stay in the house and try to keep my losses at a minimum. However, this dude now has decided half of my house is not enough for him and he takes by force the second bathroom too, leaving me with none. And then he keeps taking more and more until I'm left to live in my backyard and sleep in the dog's house. Can you blame me for taking my rockets I used to hide below the dog's house and wanting to blow his face? Unfortunately he has a force shield and I can't hit him directly, he only takes minor injuries from the explosions around, and he comes in the backyard and beats the shit out of me whenever I try it. He says he's only defending himself from me and asks me to stop. He claims he doesn't understand why can't I just accept and live in the place where he left me to live.

How different could it have gone if after settling in my house he offered to discuss which part I wanted to keep and which part he wanted, or better, if everything was shared as common space? If he offered to split the costs for internet and cable tv? If he volunteered to take turns for taking the clothes to the laundry? I mean, it's true I lost some freedom and space and I'm still pissed about that. But I can't take him out by force and his stay here has increased my quality of life despite everything. Maybe I'm willing to compromise, maybe it could be good for both of us. However, had he took the place I consider mine with all my stuff to himself by force and left me to live a miserable life I'm pretty sure I would be more willing to kill him than to make any kind of deal.

The first situation is what happened in simple terms. The second is what Choulo19 proposed and that may or may not be out of reach at this point.