Politics & Stuff

[haranr 485]

Israel SHOULD raid Hamas from the ground and set-up a new system in Gaza for the sake of most innocent Palestines AND South Israel's population. At the same time, they should continue 'peace talks' and try to promote a solution.

Israel are the ones with the 'power' therefore they should act as the 'mature' figure and help out the majority of Palestines who are NOT radical.

[haranr 485]

It's simple they not interested in parts of the land, they want all the land a thing that they will never get. they will never compromise and that's why peace is not achievable.

They HAVE and WILL compromise.

[Muzchap 8,964]

They HAVE and WILL compromise.

It's a tough situation that continues to fester

It's just so unfair on many Palestine people - Hamas are a militant faction - I bet most people just want to live their life.

I have no problem with Israel taking action - just wish Hamas weren't such cowards - bunkering themselves with women and children as shields (if the news stories are to be believed)

Sad times indeed

[Fulham Broadway 16,385]

Try this to find an answerhttp://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/occupation_101_voices_of_a_silenced_majority/

95% of a prison is still a prison. Not my quote. UN Human rights persons quote.

Excellent film, good analysis

[LDN Blue 7,903]

Stingray, what do you think about Norman Finkelstein?

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Hey guys, you have told me it's the biggest lie ever that the Quran encourages to fight everyone who isn't a Muslim.

Can anyone explain me this line?:Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Can you explain this to me?

Now that the game is over I can concentrate and answer you . I will try to be as short as possible. Now when a non Muslim throws a text at me an tells me explain this, one can only assume two motives:

a) This person is trying to take a shot at Islam and portray it as a " bloody religion or violent one". In that case my response would be: go somewhere else and spread your hatred and you can stop reading at the end of this sentence.

b ) Someone who wants to understand and hence I would say, I am delighted to explain and share my knowledge of my faith, Islam, with you. So keep reading

But who am I to judge on what is in people's heart and what intentions they have? For the sake of transparency, I will use the Arabic texts, and the most spread English Translation of Yusuf Ali. Ofcourse feel free to seek any translation you are comfortable with.

N.B. Quran is only in Arabic and the translations are attempts by the authors to explain the meaning of the verse in their own choice of words

Before we go to the "suspicious" verse, we need to understand some principles and rules in Islam. Rules regarding fighting.

Rule 1: Surat Al Baqarah, verse 190

وَقَاتِلُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ الَّذِينَ يُقَاتِلُونَكُمْ وَلاَ تَعْتَدُواْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لاَ يُحِبُّ الْمُعْتَدِينَ

190. Fight in the cause of God

Those who fight you,

But do not transgress limits;

For God loveth not transgressors.

So basically we fight in defense not attack. Attacking others is forbidden. This is the RULE OF ENGAGEMENT.

Rule 2: Surat Al-Isra'a, verse 33:

وَلاَ تَقْتُلُواْ النَّفْسَ الَّتِي حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ إِلاَّ بِالْحَقِّ وَمَن قُتِلَ مَظْلُومًا فَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا لِوَلِيِّهِ سُلْطَانًا فَلاَ يُسْرِف فِّي الْقَتْلِ إِنَّهُ كَانَ مَنْصُورًا

33. Nor take life—which God

Has made sacred—except

For just cause. And if

Anyone is slain wrongfully,

We have given his heir

Authority (to demand Qiṣāṣ

Or to forgive): but let him

Not exceed bounds in the matter

Of taking life; for he

Is helped (by the Law).

We are not to take a life wrongfully ( i.e anyone who hasn't killed or is attempting to kill in a war, basically someone shooting at you not someone you think might shoot at you. It has to be immenent like I guy pointing a weapon at you and shooting), and if we do we then we can be either punished or forgiven depending on the family of the victim. The "eye for an eye, life for a life " applies here, as well as forgiveness. So there is a spectrum from death to total forgiveness. In between, that is left for society to decide. i,e. If a society decides that you pay money for the family, then be it. If it decides on execution, then be it. If they decide prison, or social work, again then be it. The point is there are the boundaries and people/society should determine what serves them well. This is put through human made law, such as life in prison.

There was a serial killer known in the U.S. called Gary Ridgway who abducted and killed many women. During his sentence, as the U.S judiciary system allows, the family of the victims spoke. All of them wanted him dead for what he did for their sisters, mothers, daughters, wives and families. They wanted him dead for what he did. This is a very natural human feeling in such hurtful times. One of the victim's family was a Priest. He was the only man to say to him that he forgives him. He said that he found the strength of faith that makes him go up that level. Same in Islam, you have the right to seek fair justice, but you can also rise up and forgive, hence we believe we will be rewarded.

Now about the payment, like I said, and example will be jail sentence. Another, that you will be familiar with is paying money as compensation, just like the Germans had to pay to the Jews due to the Holocaust. It is an agreed amount that the aggressor pays. In Egypt, if you kill someone wrongfully unintentionally, e.g, car accident, you can face prison or pay compensation or both depending on the circumstances of the accident.

Ok, let us now go to the verse that you quoted its translation.

Surat Al Tawba, verse 29:

قَاتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ

29. Fight those who believe not

In God nor the Last Day,

Nor hold that forbidden

Which hath been forbidden

By God and His Apostle,

Nor acknowledge the Religion

Of Truth, (even if they are)

Of the People of the Book,

Until they pay the Jizya

With willing submission,

And feel themselves subdued.

Now let is apply this text to the rules. Should we fight Christians and Jews or any others? Yes, but if and ONLY IF we are defending ourselves from their attack as the rule of engagement says. Such is called in the modern life " National Defense/Security". Notice that the word used is "fight" not kill. i.e. a Muslim doesn't have to kill unless he is forced to like in warfare. So if the enemy/ aggressor surrenders/ gets injured/caught, then I don't have to kill him. If I do, then I have broken the second rule and that is taking a life wrongfully on purpose. This applies to a fight with anyone not just the Jews and Christians. It applies to aggressor Muslims too and everyone else.

So you may ask yourself a question, and that is why mention the people of the book i.e. Jews and Christians. That is simply because part of our core faith is to believe in them and know that they follow the same God as ours. We consider Judaism and Christianity as cousin faiths to Muslim.( Ismael and Israel the sons of Ibrahim)

Surat Al Baqarah, verse 285:

آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ وَقَالُواْ سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ

285. The Apostle believeth

In what hath been revealed

To him from his Lord,

As do the men of faith.

Each one (of them) believeth

In God, His angels,

His books, and His apostles.

"We make no distinction (they say)

Between one and another

Of His apostles." And they say:

"We hear, and we obey:

(We seek) Thy forgiveness,

Our Lord, and to Thee

Is the end of all journeys."

We have to believe in all and not differentiate between them as saying this Prophet is better than that. They are all equal messengers of God in our eyes. An insult to Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Noah, David, Jacob, Suliman or any is the same. They are all equal to us in value as righteous men and messengers.

Also we were told in the Quran, how to disagree and debate with people of different faiths and non believers in God

Surat Al Nahl, verse 125

ادْعُ إِلَى سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ وَجَادِلْهُم بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَن ضَلَّ عَن سَبِيلِهِ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ

125. Invite (all) to the Way

Of thy Lord with wisdom

And beautiful preaching;

And argue with them

In ways that are best

And most gracious:

For thy Lord knoweth best,

Who have strayed from His Path,

And who receive guidance.

If someone acts out side these BASIC concepts, then it is not Islam's fault. It is the Muslim who decided to ignore what Islam says. (Notice the difference between a faith and how people act. If you find a perfect human being please make sure to tell me.)

Now, let me also clear out something. A human life is of vast importance to us. Any human life, atheist, Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Jew, Muslim and any other.

Surat Al Ma'eda, verse 32:

مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنَّهُ مَن قَتَلَ نَفْسًا بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ أَوْ فَسَادٍ فِي الأَرْضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَا أَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَلَقَدْ جَاءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنْهُم بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فِي الأَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُونَ

32. 35 On that account: We ordained

For the Children of Israel

That if any one slew

A person—unless it be

For murder or for spreading

Mischief in the land—

It would be as if

He slew the whole people:

And if any one saved a life,

It would be as if he saved

The life of the whole people.

Then although there came

To them Our Apostles

With Clear Signs, yet,

Even after that, many

Of them continued to commit

Excesses in the land.

Killing an innocent human life, not a Muslim, not a Jew, not a Christian, A HUMAN LIFE, is like murdering the entire humanity.

Well now that I have clarified, the importance of a human life and the rules of engagement and its consequences, let us together see who uses this text that you asked about.

1) A Muslim, who uses it to take advantage of others' lack of knowledge and circumstance, in order to fulfill some sort of an agenda, usually political.

2) An Islamophobe or anti-Muslim, who wants to use texts in the Quran to portray Islam as a religion of violence and blood, again for a specific agenda.

3) A Muslim who wants to impress others by claiming his knowledge of some versus of the Quran.

4) Someone who seeks knowledge regardless of being a Muslim or a non-Muslim.

The first and the second are two faces of the same coin. They feed off of each others hate in order to fulfill an agenda.

The third is very dangerous, as he has the potential to pass false information to others who lack knowledge and misguide them.

The fourth is someone who I respect. He doesn't have to follow the faith by all means, but he wishes to understand so that people can break more barriers and learn to live together better and progress as a human race.A friend recently told me " A mind left poor, is a life not lived. "

Mind you, I am not a Sheikh or Imam. But this is really basic knowledge I get as others do from reading the Quran with the attempt to understand the words I am reading and how they relate to each other. In the Quran, we are encouraged to always think and question things. That is how you seek knowledge and understand.

So to sum it up:

a) Fight back anyone who attacks you including Christians and Jews. ( National Defense)

b ) Don't wrongfully but purposely take a life. ( Kill someone who did nothing to you, e.g, civilians or suspects....etc)

c) The aggressor can pay Jizyah ; money ( like in the the case of Germany and Israel), prison sentencing/execution/social work depending on society and its' rules

d) the aggressor can be forgiven if the family of the victim says so.

e)In case of execution, only the criminal will be executed, not his son, friend or any other family member. Anyone not involved should not be harmed.

f) Muslims who know their religion value human lives regardless of faith and beliefs and should not engage in any aggression by words or actions. Should always seek knowledge and debate with reason in a pleasant why. ( I ain't a perfect one unfortunately but I have my moments )

So if any Muslim throws a " war verse at you", now you can tell him to go read his book again as he knows nothing. If any Islamophobe wants to have a go at Islam by using random texts, then again, he hasn't read the Quran with a purpose to understand, therefore he will misquote/ misinterpret/ or take out of context and that is sooooooooooo easy to take on.

Hope that helped buddy, or shall I call you cousin ? Please feel free to ask other Muslims who studied their religion well and know good Arabic.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

What's up bro? Read the next verse, Qur'an 9:30. I think the context to the preceding verse is very clear.

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

It's very clear. The reason why Jews and Muslims must be fought is because of their belief, not because Muslims are fighting back in self defense. This is a common deflective tactic that Imam's use to explain away this verse. And it continues in the next verse. Allah complaining about "unbelief". Nothing about self defense:

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

"Now, let me also clear out something. A human life is of vast importance to us" --------------

How true is this? Qur'an 48:29

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves…

More to the point, Allah certainly doesn't consider Non-Muslims equal to Muslims. Qur'an 8:55:

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe.

And it continues in Qur'an 98:6:

Those who disbelieve from among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

"Killing an innocent human life, not a Muslim, not a Jew, not a Christian, A HUMAN LIFE, is like murdering the entire humanity." ---------------

Again, this is not very true. This is gotten from Qur'an 5:32, a verse the Qur'an burrows from the Jewish Tanakh and is not applicable to Muslims . It is the favourite verse of Muslim apologists to prove that Islam is a religion of peace when it is not.

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

The next verse is the command for Muslims.

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment

These are the same punishments practiced in Saudi Arabia under Sharia.

"Fight back anyone who attacks you including Christians and Jews. ( National Defense)"

To get back to the gist of your comment, this is completely false and not true. Anyone who has read Hadith Bukhari or Muslim or that has read the biography of Muhammad knows he and the early Muslms killed innocent people. People who mocked him were killed. Asma Bint Marwan for example. People who didn't convert to Islam were killed. Non-Muslims were persecuted and killed. Jews were exiled from Arabia.

Muhammad's words in the Hadith. The context is very clear. It's Hadith afterall:

very cle

Bukhari (52:177)

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Muslim (1:30)

"The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

It's pretty obvious from just a cursory glance at the Muslim sources that most of what you wrote is incorrect. Islam commands it's followers to fight against unbelievers in order to spread Islam. If they are Jews or Christians, they are given option of Jizya under Dhimmitude. Pagans and Atheists are not so lucky. It's convert or die. Anyway, let's continue this conversation elsewhere. PM me.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Dion 2,476]

Anyway, let's continue this conversation elsewhere. PM me.

Why? I'm learning a lot, I wanna see everything

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

Why? I wanna see everything

Oh I am replying in public

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

What's up bro? Read the next verse, Qur'an 9:30. I think the context to the preceding verse is very clear.

The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah "; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah ." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved [before them]. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?

It's very clear. The reason why Jews and Muslims must be fought is because of their belief, not because Muslims are fighting back in self defense. This is a common deflective tactic that Imam's use to explain away this verse. And it continues in the next verse. Allah complaining about "unbelief". Nothing about self defense:

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him.

"Now, let me also clear out something. A human life is of vast importance to us" --------------

How true is this? Qur'an 48:29

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves…

More to the point, Allah certainly doesn't consider Non-Muslims equal to Muslims. Qur'an 8:55:

Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe.

And it continues in Qur'an 98:6:

Those who disbelieve from among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

"Killing an innocent human life, not a Muslim, not a Jew, not a Christian, A HUMAN LIFE, is like murdering the entire humanity." ---------------

Again, this is not very true. This is gotten from Qur'an 5:32, a verse the Qur'an burrows from the Jewish Tanakh and is not applicable to Muslims . It is the favourite verse of Muslim apologists to prove that Islam is a religion of peace when it is not.

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

The next verse is the command for Muslims.

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment

These are the same punishments practiced in Saudi Arabia under Sharia.

"Fight back anyone who attacks you including Christians and Jews. ( National Defense)"

To get back to the gist of your comment, this is completely false and not true. Anyone who has read Hadith Bukhari or Muslim or that has read the biography of Muhammad knows he and the early Muslms killed innocent people. People who mocked him were killed. Asma Bint Marwan for example. People who didn't convert to Islam were killed. Non-Muslims were persecuted and killed. Jews were exiled from Arabia.

Muhammad's words in the Hadith. The context is very clear. It's Hadith afterall:

very cle

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

It's pretty obvious from just a cursory glance at the Muslim sources that most of what you wrote is incorrect. Islam commands it's followers to fight against unbelievers in order to spread Islam. If they are Jews or Christians, they are given option of Jizya under Dhimmitude. Pagans and Atheists are not so lucky. It's convert or die. Anyway, let's continue this conversation elsewhere. PM me.

No problem body. Really simple just long

Let us start with the first shall we. Surat Al Tawba verse 9. Again for the sake of transperancy I will put the Arabic text and the translation of Yousef Ali.

Now Surat Al Tawba verse 30.

وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ عُزَيْرٌ ابْنُ اللَّهِ وَقَالَتْ النَّصَارَى الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ قَوْلُهُم بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ يُضَاهِؤُونَ قَوْلَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِن قَبْلُ قَاتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ

30. The Jews call ’Uzair a son Of God, and the Christians Call Christ the Son of God. That is a saying from their mouth; (In this) they but imitate What the Unbelievers of old Used to say. God's curse Be on them: how they are deluded Away from the Truth!

Typical misquotation and interpretation. You assumed that because God condemns it, it means that Muslims, have to act upon it and go fight Jews. You forgot to also accuse Muslims that they should fight Christians. LOL. Thus you are ignoring basic principles taught to Muslims in elementary schools. That is no Muslim should judge anyone on his faith. The judgement is for God and only God when we die and meet him. The simple verse that 10 yr olds learn as I did is as follows:

Surat Al Ghashia, verses 21-26

21- فَذَكِّرْ إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُذَكِّرٌ

22 -لَّسْتَ عَلَيْهِم بِمُصَيْطِرٍ

23- إِلاَّ مَن تَوَلَّى وَكَفَرَ

24- فَيُعَذِّبُهُ اللَّهُ الْعَذَابَ الأَكْبَرَ

25- إِنَّ إِلَيْنَا إِيَابَهُمْ

26- ثُمَّ إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا حِسَابَهُمْ

21. Wherefore do thou give admonition, for thou art, one to admonish.

22. Thou art not one to manage (men's) affairs.

23. But if any turn away and reject God,—

24. God will punish him with a mighty punishment,

25. For to Us ( God) will be their Return;

26. Then it will be for Us ( God) to call them to account.

Clearly states that the only one who will judge people upon their faith is God. Not another human being, Muslim or non. There is a whole and other versus saying the same. But again talk without true knowledge does not lead to much my friend. I suggest you read more. Not to mention that you TOTALLY IGNORED the first verse that says you do not fight unless you are attacked. That was just a very bad move.

Let us go for the Second account you have.

Surat Al Fateh verse 29

مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاء عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاء بَيْنَهُمْ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ذَلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَى عَلَى سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

29. Muhammad is the Apostle Of God; and those who are with him are strong against unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (In prayer), seeking Grace From God and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their Marks, (being) the traces Of their prostration. This is their similitude In the Taurāt And their similitude In the Gospel is: Like a seed which sends

Forth its blade, then Makes it strong; it then Becomes thick, and it stands On its own stem, (filling) The sowers with wonder And delight. As a result, It fills the Unbelievers With rage at them. God has promised those Among them who believe And do righteous deeds Forgiveness, And a great Reward.

Now this point is REALLY weak. The only reference God makes in this verse to the Jews and the Christians, is in by basically saying " there are example of those Muslims, who are pray and seeking God's grace in the Turah (i.e Jews) and in the Gospel ( i.e. Christians). Another reason to actually like the Jews and the Christians. You check out what the Jewish Scholars say about Muslims and that all prophets are.

Here is one of many videos from Jews

Now the part about Muslim being merciful with each other and harsh on " non-believers" . Do you have the slightest idea who the non-believers that the text is talking about specifically? I hardly doubt. They are the non-believers of the tribe Quraish. Yes the ones who tortured Muslim, killed Muslims, the ones that believed in slavery based on skin color and social status, the ones who used to bury born baby girls alive because they believed they would bring shame to them and wanted only male offsrpings.......etc. They were the enemies who killed Muslims at the time. No video cameras at the time or a press so I can't claim a Holocaust. But let us go back to the verse. " Muhammad is the Apostle Of God; and those who are with him are strong against unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other". Now bearing in mind who those non believers are, now that I told you, where does it say go kill them? It says to be strong against them right? Tough against them right? Sure I do the same to my enemies if they have killed my mother,father,daughter,son, wife, friend. Wouldn't you? Is than an ABNORMAL FEELING to any human. But it doesn't say go kill them does it? And it is referring to a specific time and a specific enemy during that specific time. You really want to know what we should do with unbelievers? I really doubt, because if you wanted we have a whole chapter (short) telling us how we deal with non believers.

Here Surat Al Kaferoon ( Chapter "Unbelievers" . "no faith")

1- قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا الْكَافِرُونَ

2- لا أَعْبُدُ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ

3- وَلا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ

4- وَلا أَنَا عَابِدٌ مَّا عَبَدتُّمْ

5- وَلا أَنتُمْ عَابِدُونَ مَا أَعْبُدُ

6- لَكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ

1- Say: O ye that reject Faith! (unbelievers)

2. I worship not that Which ye worship,

3. Nor will ye worship That which I worship.

4. And I will not worship That which ye have been Wont to worship,

5. Nor will ye worship That which I worship.

6. To you be your Way, And to me mine.

Hmmmmm, anything about killing here mate? This is a chapter for the unbelievers. As you have realized, God is telling Mohammed and other Muslims nothing about killing or fighting. Unlike the other verses that had specific events and reasons for fighting. Again only to defend. But you missed that. A whole chapter for what English translators refer to as unbelievers, people with no faith, infidels....etc and God doesn't tell Muslim to to something. Just Muslims have their way of worship and non believers have theirs. No compulsion! No if you don't believe Muslims should go kill. I assume you mean ofcourse by non believers, non Muslims/non Christians/non Jews. You are clearly fishing for something here .

Whatever God thinks is for God not for me as a human being to act on his behalf. If all Jews believe in Jesus then why aren't they Christians. Isn't it through Jesus lies salvation. Jews believe in Judaism and that that is the way to heaven. Other ways not acceptable. Christians believe that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ no other way. So you do you want to hold it against Muslims who believe that the way to heaven is through Islam? . And at the end of the day, there will come a time when we will be judged and the only one who can do this is the Creator. Not a human being like I said. Hence, no Muslim is allowed to judge any faith even anyone from his own faith. faith is something in the heart.

The part about God doesn't see Muslims and non-Muslims equal.. Your words kind of fail you here my friend. There are non- Muslims, like the people of the Holy books that believe in God i.e Christians and Jews. And there are Non-Muslims as in others who do not believe in God or have any other faiths. To make it easy and short, THAT SPECIFIC TEXT Surat Al Anfal, verse 55, was for MUSLIMS TELLING THEM NOT TO BE HYPOCRITES NOT DIRECTED TO NON BELIEVERS OR CHRISTIANS OR JEWS. Man you really messed that one up. Let us see, so we will start from verse 45. We don't want to misquote or take out of context do we?

45 - يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا لَقِيتُمْ فِئَةً فَاثْبُتُواْ وَاذْكُرُواْ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا لَّعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ

46- وَأَطِيعُواْ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَلاَ تَنَازَعُواْ فَتَفْشَلُواْ وَتَذْهَبَ رِيحُكُمْ وَاصْبِرُواْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الصَّابِرِينَ

47- وَلاَ تَكُونُواْ كَالَّذِينَ خَرَجُواْ مِن دِيَارِهِم بَطَرًا وَرِئَاء النَّاسِ وَيَصُدُّونَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ وَاللَّهُ بِمَا يَعْمَلُونَ مُحِيطٌ

48- وَإِذْ زَيَّنَ لَهُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ أَعْمَالَهُمْ وَقَالَ لاَ غَالِبَ لَكُمُ الْيَوْمَ مِنَ النَّاسِ وَإِنِّي جَارٌ لَّكُمْ فَلَمَّا تَرَاءَتِ الْفِئَتَانِ نَكَصَ عَلَى عَقِبَيْهِ وَقَالَ إِنِّي بَرِيءٌ مِّنكُمْ إِنِّي أَرَى مَا لاَ تَرَوْنَ إِنِّيَ أَخَافُ اللَّهَ وَاللَّهُ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ

49- إِذْ يَقُولُ الْمُنَافِقُونَ وَالَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ غَرَّ هَؤُلاء دِينُهُمْ وَمَن يَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ

50- وَلَوْ تَرَى إِذْ يَتَوَفَّى الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ الْمَلائِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ وَذُوقُواْ عَذَابَ الْحَرِيقِ

51- ذَلِكَ بِمَا قَدَّمَتْ أَيْدِيكُمْ وَأَنَّ اللَّهَ لَيْسَ بِظَلاَّمٍ لِّلْعَبِيدِ

52- كَدَأْبِ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ وَالَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ كَفَرُواْ بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ فَأَخَذَهُمُ اللَّهُ بِذُنُوبِهِمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَوِيٌّ شَدِيدُ الْعِقَابِ

53- ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّ اللَّهَ لَمْ يَكُ مُغَيِّرًا نِّعْمَةً أَنْعَمَهَا عَلَى قَوْمٍ حَتَّى يُغَيِّرُواْ مَا بِأَنفُسِهِمْ وَأَنَّ اللَّهَ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ

54- كَدَأْبِ آلِ فِرْعَوْنَ وَالَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِهِمْ كَذَّبُواْ بِآيَاتِ رَبِّهِمْ فَأَهْلَكْنَاهُم بِذُنُوبِهِمْ وَأَغْرَقْنَا آلَ فِرْعَوْنَ وَكُلٌّ كَانُواْ ظَالِمِينَ

55- إِنَّ شَرَّ الدَّوَابِّ عِندَ اللَّهِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ فَهُمْ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ

56- الَّذِينَ عَاهَدتَّ مِنْهُمْ ثُمَّ يَنقُضُونَ عَهْدَهُمْ فِي كُلِّ مَرَّةٍ وَهُمْ لاَ يَتَّقُونَ

45. O ye who believe! When ye meet a force, Be firm, and call God In remembrance much (and often); That ye may prosper:

46. And obey God and His Apostle; And fall into no disputes, Lest ye lose heart And your power depart; And be patient and persevering: For God is with those Who patiently persevere:

47. And be not like those who started from their homes insolently and to be seen of men, and to hinder (men) from the path of God: for God compasseth round about all that they do.

48. Remember Satan made their (sinful) acts seem Alluring to them, and said: "No one among men Can overcome you this day, While I am near to you" But when the two forces Came in sight of each other, He turned on his heels, And said: "Lo! I am clear Of you; to! I see What ye see not; Lo! I fear God; for God Is strict in punishment.

49- Lo! the Hypocrites say, and those In whose hearts is a disease: "These people,—their religion Has misled them." But If any trust in God, behold! God is Exalted in might, Wise.

50. If thou couldst see, When the angels take the souls Of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces And their backs, (saying): "Taste the Penalty of the blazing Fire—

51. "Because of (the deeds) which Your (own) hands sent forth: For God is never unjust To His servants:

52. "(Deeds) after the manner Of the People of Pharaoh And of those before them: They rejected the Signs of God, And God punished them For their crimes: for God Is Strong, and Strict in punishment:

53. "Because God will never change The Grace which He hath bestowed On a people until they change What is in their (own) souls: And verily God is He Who heareth and knoweth (all things)."

54. "(Deeds) after the manner Of the People of Pharaoh And those before them": They treated as false the Signs Of their Lord: so We Destroyed them for their crimes, And We drowned the People Of Pharaoh: for they were all Oppressors and wrong-doers.

55. For the worst of beasts In the sight of God Are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

56. They are those with whom Thou didst make a covenant, But they break their covenant Every time, and they have not The fear (of God).

Ok, now I don't think I will elaborate. But seriously where do you see God talking about non-believers? AAAAHHHHH when he is referring to the people of the Pharaoh of Egypt. Now remind me again what did the Pharoah and his people do? Yes that is right, they enslaved the Jews and fought Moses. My guess is, the Jews don't like the Pharoah either . Other than that, God is talking to Muslims at a specific areas, when during war against the tribe of Quraish, there were hypocrites and liars, who infront of the people talk about their bravery but when a war starts they hide in their homes. Again my friend you fail. There is a specific context the verse is referring too, but as I can really see you just copy pasted that from somewhere and added some of your own.

Now are Muslims and non-Muslims in the same to God? As in what, heaven and hell? I think I answered that one already. About the animal part which God is referring to the Pharoah and his people who enslaved the Jews, I guess yeah God doesn't see the Pharoah and his people ACTS the same as the acts of good BELIEVERS IN GOD. i.e Christianity, Judiasm and Islam and any other faiths who believe in God, worship him and nothing but him.

Now to your interesting closing points about the Hadith and so on. You know what a hadith is? It is the sayings of Mohammed. You know when they were gathered? Over a century and a half after Mohammed's death. Can you imagine a Chinese whisper game for a century and a half?LOL. Let me make this as clear as possible. The Quran, is memorized and recited on daily basis during that time.It was taught every day and repeated during the 5 daily prayers not to mention the extra prayers. Then it was written. The hadith or the saying is different. It is like me having a conversation with you right now and hanging out in a pub or something. Then later on I go to a friend in a few days and tell him about the conversation that you and I had. What are the chances that I say the exact conversation word for word to me friend? What are the chances that I will keep repeating that conversation word for word? Dude, even the science the we learn, we keep putting it in our own words. The most thing we do is memorize an equation. But defining the equation will differ from you , o another American, to another British.....etc. I am comparing vital teachings here. We want to know a hadeeth is right or not we put it against the Quran. If it contradicts, then we don't take it. Bukhari, Moslem, Abu Huraira, or whomever it is. If it fails then it is dropped. If a Muslim is in doubt about it, he automatically rejects it. If a Muslim is sure of it he can ignore it. As for the accusations you are throwing around about Mohammed and the Muslims at the time going on killing innocents and so on, then you should know better. You should know that there is no truth behind these accusations. Yeah a Muslim can kill, but it is not because his book says to do do. Now you are half British half Nigerian, living in the U.S and possibly continuing your education. So you are a man of intellect and logic I assume. Why is this religion spreading so fast despite of the clear things that think of? Why has such a bloody, violent religion is increasing faster than any other one in Europe and the U.S.? There must be something buddy that you are getting wrong . Like misinterpretations, misquotations, throwing accusations, and false information.

Again, what you are trying to imply is nothing solid. If I want to debate Christianity for example, I would have to study it first. Study the language in which it is written to get the original meaning. Understand that culture and time that it was delivered to put things in context. I doubt you know anything about Islam from proper readings or a few Arabic sentences. Same as Judaism, I would need to study the Torah and learn both Hebrew and Aramiac. My Torah teacher should be a Jewish Scholar as my Bible teacher should be a Christian Scholar. Ofcourse that is assuming that I want to really understand without being biased. But if I want to be biased, then I could just listen to any fool who says crap about religions and take things out of contexts and throw it around to make a point. Come on mate, you are better that that. And those questions, they are really simple, but they take a while to write.

Oh one more thing The point about us taking a quote from the Torah and putting it in the Quran, you are wrong. I made it clear in my previous post that we have to believe in all the prophets and all the Holy books. Muslims are a continuation of the religions, just like Christianity was a continuation to Judiasm. You will find a lot of similarities. Especially Muslims and Jews. Check that youtube again.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

@MrExcalibur100, Now for the sake of transparency, I had to answer you in public. No harsh feelings

[Parky 739]

Can I ask if you guys both Jewish and Arab believe there will ever be peace for future generations ?

I can only see a vicious circle of hate continuing. The middle east is a mess atm with Islamic secretarial in-fighting as well as the conflict between the Jews and Palestinians. What hope is there for your children with all this hate around.

My conclusion is the human species is the 'Problem'. World peace will exist either when we destroy our planets ability to sustain us or we and we kill each off by nuclear, chemical and biological warfare.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

@Mohammed Seif

I'll keep it short and try to be as nice as possible . I'm not going to give a detailed response to that on this thread because I don't want to detract too much from what it's meant for. I took my time to read what you typed and it was what I expected. Of course as a Muslim I don't expect you to be publicly critical of Islam. You have chosen to come up with a very peaceful interpretation of these verses but the problem with your interpretation is that it's mostly based off of opinion and the wrong inference that you have to understand Arabic to understand the Qur'an. Most people in the world don't understand Arabic. The Qur'an claims to be a "clear" book. You don't have to understand Hebrew language or Koine Greek to be able to understand the verses of the Bible. This is the job of theologians that study it in College and who learn the original language for exegetical reasons. Most Muslims don't even speak Arabic, which is ironic to begin with.

A misconception you made. You don't have to go biblical "scholars" to understand scripture, instead, in Christianity, it is God who reveals scripture to us Christians, not Man. One of the MANY differences between the two religions.

1 John 2:27

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Most of the verses I gave were given in right context and that context was gotten straight from qtafsir.com, which is a wonderful site on Qur'anic commentary by Ibn Kathir, one of the greatest Qur'anic commentators of all time, not from some biased source. I'll take his commentary of the Qur'an over yours. Now you can choose to believe in a more peaceful, tolerant version of Islam that suits you (many don't) but that doesn't mean that that Islam is the legitimate one practiced by Muhammad and his early Muslims. There is a reason why many Muhujadeen are waging Jihad in many diverse countries (from China to Nigeria) around the world today. They are only following the example of the prophet of Islam.

And as to why Islam has many followers. It's an obvious fact that Muslim countries have a far higher birthrate than most other Christian majority countries. It's a fairly known fact that many of Muslim converts in the early/middle ages converted because they couldn't bare to leave as Dhimmi's under Islamic rule in the Ottoman empire. It's It's also a well known fact that Islam has a death penalty for Apostasy. Muhammad said "whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him". A religion says kill those who leave it, yet you're surprised they're many followers?

Put yourself as a Non-Muslim for a second and think about that. How many people would have left Islam in the ME if they weren't threatened with death. Can you apostatize from Islam in Egypt without being in BIG trouble, worst case scenario, death? I have a Coptic Christian friend and he was talking to me on how horrible the "blasphemy" (blasphemy to speak bad about Muhammad? a man?) law is and how Coptic Christians are basically second class citizens.

Besides, it's an irrelevant point because Christianity has at least a billion more followers, but I doubt you believe Christianity is true.

As for a Jewish Rabbi saying that Islam is the oldest religion, apart from the fact that that is laughable to a non-Muslim, how is it relevant? Most Jews will strongly disagree with that. I also heard a Catholic priest on youtube say the God of the Bible is the same as the God of the Qur'an. Most Christians will strongly disagree with that. So will most Catholics. Even any Atheist who reads both scriptures will disagree with that.

As for Sahih (100 % authentic by all schools of Islamic jurisprudence) Hadith, you are a Sunni Muslim I assume and you know very well that every single Hadith in both Muslim and Bukhari are authentic. Those quotes by Muhammad are 100% authentic and do not contradict the Qur'an. How do you know to pray 5 times a day, perform ablution and so on if not for Hadith? You can't just ignore Hadith that portray Muhammad as violent and intolerant and accept those that fit your pre-conceived version. Where is death for Apostasy under Sharia gotten from? You can't understand the Qur'an without the Hadith. You know that. I'm very surprised you will say that.

You also missed my point about Qur'an 5:32 and 33. 5:52 has nothing to do with Muslims and was burrowed from the Jewish Tanakh. The funny thing about that verse is that Allah references it as if any Jew believes the words in the Tanakh are inspired by God. That's like me quoting Harry Potter and presenting it as reality and not fiction.

Anyway, let's continue via personal message. I'm enjoying the convo, but I don't want to derail the thread, lol

P.S. and MOST importantly:

THIS is the context for Qur'an 9:29, not the erroneous, made up version you posted:

Ibn Kathir, The Battles of the Prophet, pp. 183-4—Allah, Most High, ordered the believers to prohibit the disbelievers from entering or coming near the sacred Mosque. On that, Quraish thought that this would reduce their profits from trade. Therefore, Allah, Most High, compensated them and ordered them to fight the people of the Book until they embrace Islam or pay the Jizyah. Allah says, “O ye who believe! Truly the pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” Therefore, the Messenger of Allah decided to fight the Romans in order to call them to Islam.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir (on Qur’an 9:30)—Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because they are idolaters and disbelievers. Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over Isa, it is obvious.

[Dion 2,476]

I don't know how admins and mods see it, but as I see it, discussing the Qur'an is somewhat related to the conflict, even if it falls more into religious discussion than political one. I haven't had much contact with dogmas from Islamism so I find it really fascinating. I would like to keep reading the things you guys bring up if you don't mind. Even if there would be the need for continuing in another proper thread.

As long as it's done in a well-mannered and peaceful fashion I don't see why it should be a problem.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

I'll keep it short and try to be as nice as possible . I'm not going to give a detailed response to that on this thread because I don't want to detract too much from what it's meant for. I took my time to read what you typed and it was what I expected. Of course as a Muslim I don't expect you to be publicly critical of Islam. You have chosen to come up with a very peaceful interpretation of these verses but the problem with your interpretation is that it's mostly based off of opinion and the wrong inference that you have to understand Arabic to understand the Qur'an. Most people in the world don't understand Arabic. The Qur'an claims to be a "clear" book. You don't have to understand Hebrew language or Koine Greek to be able to understand the verses of the Bible. This is the job of theologians who learn the original language for exegetical reasons. Most Muslims don't even speak Arabic, which is ironic to begin with.

A misconception you made. You don't have to go biblical "scholars" to understand scripture, instead, in Christianity, it is God who reveals scripture to us Christians, not Man. One of the MANY differences between the two religions.

1 John 2:27

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

Most of the verses I gave were given in right context and that context was gotten straight from qtafsir.com, which is a wonderful site on Qur'anic commentary by Ibn Kathir, one of the greatest Qur'anic commentators of all time. Now you can choose to believe in a more peaceful, tolerant version of Islam that suits you but that doesn't mean that that Islam is the legitimate one practiced by Muhammad and his early Muslims. There is a reason why many Muhujadeen are waging Jihad in many diverse countries (from China to Nigeria) around the world today. They are only following the example of the prophet of Islam.

And as to why Islam has many followers. It's an obvious fact that Muslim countries have a far higher birthrate than most other Christian majority countries. It's also a well known fact that Islam has a death penalty for Apostasy. Muhammad said "whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him".

Put yourself as a Non-Muslim for a second and think about that. How many people would have left Islam in the ME if they weren't threatened with death. Can you apostatize from Islam in Egypt without being in BIG trouble, worst case scenario, death? I have a Coptic Christian friend and he was talking to me on how horrible the "blasphemy" (blasphemy to speak bad about Muhammad? a man?) law is and how Coptic Christians are basically second class citizens.

Besides, it's an irrelevant point because Christianity has at least a billion more followers, but I doubt you believe Christianity is true and that Jesus is the Son of God.

As for Sahih (100 % authentic by all schools of Islamic jurisprudence) Hadith, you are a Sunni Muslim and you know very well that every single Hadith in both Muslim and Bukhari are authentic. Those quotes by Muhammad are 100% authentic and do not contradict the Qur'an. Just as the death for apostasy hadiths are used under Sharia. You can't understand the Qur'an without the Hadith. I'm very surprised you will say that.

Anyway, let's continue via personal message. I'm enjoying the convo.

Mate if you want to continue in PM then do so. But when you call me out in public, I am responsible to answer back in public.

1) Non of what I stated was based on opinions. I was transparent enough to put the verse and its interpretation from the most spread English translations of the meanings of Quran.

2) You have no clue what the early practices of Muslims are. You repeat basically what is being put by regular Islamophobes or specific historians you read for. Other historians have differnt opinions including Lesley Hazelton, who is a Jew and has wrote books about the life of Mohammed and the Sunni -Shiaa conflict.

3) I already said in my reply to hanrar, that radicals use these texts for their political agenda. I am well aware of that, I happen to be from the land where the Muslim Brotherhood was formed and from it all those other groups including Hamas. Not to mention my knowledge of how this works goes back to about 15 years ago. I have primary knowledge in that matter, not just readings.

4) Theologians study the languages of those scriptures in order to understand properly the texts. Otherwise it will be a language course. Most Muslims don't speak Arabic, but guess what, they read the Quran in Arabic and try to understand their meanings. The amount of Scholars who come from Asia and Africa to Al Azhar institution in Egypt is a lot. To demonstrate, you referred ti unbelievers so many times. the word in that text in Arabic is كافرون and the noun of it is كفر. Pronounced as Ka Fa Ra. Find the meaning of it if you can.

5) People who leave Islam get killed!? I don't think so. That Hadith again defies the Quran and nothing in the Quran states so. That does not happen. When it does, then it is exceptions and people are punished for. Executed to be precise. Even that Sudanese lady you converted to Christianity got freed because these actions are not accepted by Muslims. Whoever want to believe good for him, who ever doesn't want to good for him. Humans do not judge fellow humans on faith. It is for God and God only.

6) About Muslims increasing because of birthrate! Come on man. That is weak. If you have any clue about the lives people are live, you will just know that this is just absolute nonsense. The poverty, poor health system, lack of security do not lead to more breeding. Trust me. LOL. Plus it is also lame to think that a faith will spread that fast because Muslim men are more fertile or than Muslim females are just baby machines. Seriously man this point is making me laugh so hard.

7) The word Coptics means civilian in ancient Egyptian. Pahroah means king. So I am a Coptic.

8) Christians in Egypt ( Orthodox Christians) have been suffering for a while. But again that is a false accusation when you blame it on Muslims. Muslims too have been suffering. All Egyptians have been suffering. You go back and watch the feeds of the 25th of January revolution. When the Egyptians were fighting the police. See who was protecting the Muslims as they prayed and who was guarding the Churches. Don't do like the Muslim Brotherhood and mix religion with politics

9) After the second wave of revolution, 30th of July, when we ousted the Muslim Brotherhood president and party, Churches got burned by pro Morsi Supporters. Guess who was fighting those Muslim Brotherhood supporters and still are. Muslims and Christians.

10) Yes Christians are not allowed in Egypt to insult Mohammed or the Quran. They will go to Jail for that. Christians are not allowed to Insult Moses and Judaism or they will go to jail. Christians are not even allowed to insult Jesus or Christianity or they will will go to jail. Guess what, same applies to Muslims regarding their faith and other people's faith. So that racism card doesn't really work. We are to respect each others religion and people with in our faith. Again, whatever a person believes in is only between him and God. More Muslims have went to jail n Egypt for insulting religions than Christians by the way.

11) In you post you were amazed that people are not alot to "insult" Mohammed ( mind I tell you it is a totally non ethical point) and yet you want me to accept what Ibn Kathir says. Ibn Katheer is a scholar PERIOD. The four Imams are scholars PERIOD. We are not sheep or cattle. We have brains to think and analyze. This world is not static and as we progress as a human race, we take that knowledge we gain and apply it. And by the way the site you referred tp, it is a Salafi site. People whose minds are stuck back in time for over a thousand years ago.

12) As for what you have quoted from the Bibile, I am proud to say that I have studied Christianity in the Christian College I was in back in the U.S. I will refrain from going into comparative religion debate, since such topics are sensitive to members and the objective was not to debate religion and faith, but merely to answer a question about my faith.

13)You have to have better sources than the TV , social media and newspaper man. How know how people think in the west very well. I have brought up in a British system and lived in the U.S for a while. I have heard it all and debated it all.

14) The funniest thing is, that these exact debates I have with radicals and Islamophobes. The only difference is the Islamophobes try to use these verses to bash Islam and the radicals use the same verses to justify what they do. Buddy I have been studying Islam in a British system since I was 7 years old. I know what I am talking about very well.

Now feel free to continue this in the PM. But if you call me in public I have to respond in public.

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

I don't know how admins and mods see it, but as I see it, discussing the Qur'an is somewhat related to the conflict, even if it falls more into religious discussion than political one. I haven't had much contact with dogmas from Islamism so I find it really fascinating. I would like to keep reading the things you guys bring up if you don't mind. Even if there would be the need for continuing in another proper thread.

As long as it's done in a well-mannered and peaceful fashion I don't see why it should be a problem.

I have got no problem if the mods are cool with it and if it is in a respectful manner. However, this war is not a religious war or related to religion. It is purely political.