Politics & Stuff

[Mohammed Seif 1,451]

You see, that's one of my main problems with pretty much every religion. Speaking as a law student, nothing but problems and injustice can come from following a set of rules that leave margin to a lot of different interpretations.

I didn't mean it in evolutionary sense, but in progress sense.

I know what you meant . You see as a human race we progress technologically and scientifically. Those are controllable tangible factors. But ethically we remain the same, good and bad and constant fights within. The natural human traits that contain good and bad. Part of these traits is ambition. When ambition is directed to towards wealth excessively that might turn into greed. Ambition of power turns to dictatorship etc. You get what I mean? There are constant human traits and temptations that exist. Depending on ones will, external and internal environment, these either good traits prevail, bad traits prevail or one keeps stumbling back and forth between them.

[Dion 2,476]

I know what you meant . You see as a human race we progress technologically and scientifically. Those are controllable tangible factors. But ethically we remain the same, good and bad and constant fights within. The natural human traits that contain good and bad. Part of these traits is ambition. When ambition is directed to towards wealth excessively that might turn into greed. Ambition of power turns to dictatorship etc. You get what I mean? There are constant human traits and temptations that exist. Depending on ones will, external and internal environment, these either good traits prevail, bad traits prevail or one keeps stumbling back and forth between them.

Oh, don't be so pessimistic! There are little victories. Just look at women rights. I know muslims see it a bit different. But women have come a long way on equality with men in the western world, which I find it amazing. In Brazil homossexual individuals have been acquiring a lot of rights lately as well. It may be happening slower and in smaller steps than I would like but it is happening. I gotta go to the dentist now though. Cheers.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

You see, that's one of my main problems with pretty much every religion. Speaking as a law student, nothing but problems and injustice can come from following a set of rules that leave margin to a lot of different interpretations.

That is very true, indeed. The vast majority of religious people can be manipulated very easily and that can be taken advantage of politically (obviously the prime example being USA and the UK paying Sheikhs to preach 'jihad' against the Soviet Union in Afganistan and Chechnya in the 80s).

On the other hand, I've seen people do incredible acts of goodness because they believe that god will reward them for it. And I'm talking about incredible acts that I would honestly not do and that take you completely by surprise, done even for absolute strangers. I mean like someone poor giving all their food to an even poorer family or a family letting refugees sleep in their house while they sleep in a car...etc.

I know this sounds weird coming from an atheist, but I often argue with other atheists that a place like the middle east needs religion to protect moral values. We just have not developed the cultural (can't find the right word here, beliefs? norms? traits? values? none of those really, but probably a mix of them all) to replace religion.

[haranr 485]

Yes but the shocking occupation plus the sheet amount of killings are not Haran. This is our point...

You are not objective.

[haranr 485]

Sadly, this conflict won't end soon. Both sides need to change approach towards peace. I will do my best as an Israeli citizen who recruits in less than two weeks to change the approach of many right-wing Israelis. I can't force but I can try and I have succeed in the past. An approach that will lead to a solution. I hope people at the other side are doing the same if possible.

[Stingray 9,441]

You are not objective.

Facts? Data? Why? Any reasons , any answers to my elaborate answers, to all. To all the history i gave?

I challenge your views as a non arab and a non Israeli . Therefore i am that third party claiming you commit crimes against humanity just like the UN does.

Maybe, being part of it like you do, is hindering objectivity, not me however...

Leo Festinger - cognitive dissonance reduction .... That is what i see. I wish you good luck in the army. May you like general Peled, Niko Peled, Avrami from Sin Beth and many others become more peaceful when you get out.

[haranr 485]

I would like to ask both @CHOULO19 @Stingray a simple question. You guys seem to know a lot and I am completely serious. What in your opinion must Israel do? You have to take in consideration the safety of the state.

Because from what I have studied it's very hard to point on a clear solution.

[haranr 485]

Facts? Data? Why? Any reasons , any answers to my elaborate answers, to all. To all the history i gave?

I challenge your views as a non arab and a non Israeli . Therefore i am that third party claiming you commit crimes against humanity just like the UN does.

Maybe, being part of it like you do, is hindering objectivity, not me...

Leo Festinger - cognitive dissonance reduction .... That is what i see.

You are not objective because you are delivering a message that blames Israel completely. I am seeing very one-sided facts from you. Please be more objective.

[Stingray 9,441]

You are not objective because you are delivering a message that blames Israel completely. I am seeing very one-sided facts from you. Please be more objective.

Yes, because now i am seeing an Israël that is much different from that i saw before the second intifada. I know there is no excuse for terrorism, but in the context of the palestinians ........ Only they are victims in the present.

A democratic country that upholds values as you (Israël) do, should know better. It doesnt mean i do not challenge islamic extremisme,as well. But it does mean I challenge a country who claim to be better when they are committing crimes against humanity. Eg UN, Human rights watchers and many neutrals .... But hey, it is always met with comments like: you are biased, not neutral, antisemetic, .... Even towards Israeli left wing people , intellectuals who say the exact same thing I do.

Why is that not objective .... Cause it feels a bit awkward?

[haranr 485]

Yes, because now i am seeing an Israël that is much different from that i saw before the second intifada. I know there is no excuse for terrorism, but in the context of the palestinians ........ Only they are victims in the present.

A democratic country that upholds values as you (Israël) do, should know better. It doesnt mean i do not challenge islamic extremisme,as well. But it does mean I challenge a country who claim to be better when they are committing crimes against humanity. Eg UN, Human rights watchers and many neutrals .... But hey, it is always met with comments like: you are biased, not neutral, antisemetic, .... Even towards Israeli left wing people , intellectuals who say the exact same thing I do.

Why is that not objective .... Cause it feels a bit awkward?

I completely agree. I do not support the Israel of now. I support the Israel of Rabin! Of Barak! My friend how can you forget the past??? I mean it's part of the conflict. You should not only put 100% focus on what's happening now. BTW, please answer my post that I posted 12 minutes ago. I really want to hear your opinion. Thanks.

[Stingray 9,441]

I would like to ask both @CHOULO19 @Stingray a simple question. You guys seem to know a lot and I am completely serious. What in your opinion must Israel do? You have to take in consideration the safety of the state.

Because from what I have studied it's very hard to point on a clear solution.

I think the first thing to realize now is that you are going to win every battle if you continue but lose the war. Like the former Sin Bet head says: only a leap of trust can get us out of this situation. This is not a leftie saying this, it is the former head of the secret service for years .

But no more peace processes while having the settlers do the exact opposite like during the Oslo accords would be the first step imo. A dual State may have been an option, but im not sure it is now. I hope so though.

[haranr 485]

I think the first thing to realize now is that you are going to win every battle if you continue but lose the war. Like the former Sin Bet head says: only a leap of trust can get us out of this situation. This is not a leftie saying this, it is the former head of the secret service for years .

But no more peace processes while having the settlers do the exact opposite like during the Oslo accords would be the first step imo.

Agree. Now, per say Israel does that. Can you promise that there will be no terror?

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I would like to ask both @CHOULO19 @Stingray a simple question. You guys seem to know a lot and I am completely serious. What in your opinion must Israel do? You have to take in consideration the safety of the state.

Because from what I have studied it's very hard to point on a clear solution.

Right now? End the attack. End the siege on Gaza. Stop making new settlements. Offer much improved living conditions to the Palestinians to allow less extremists groups to take the front stage. Poor, oppressed people make wars and revolutions. Free people with a decent life want nothing to do with war and violence. You want to stop the Hamas rockets? Give the Palestinian people a chance to have a good life and they will get rid of Hamas or anyone who wants to take away the peace they have.

To solve the entire conflict? Complete integration. One integrated state with people of all religions living side by side with equality. I do not believe the two-state solution can ever bring peace because there can be none while a Jewish only state exists with dreams of the 'promised land'. The situation has to return to what it was like before the 1940s where Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in land together as equals. That is to me the ONLY route to peace. Though I cannot see how that is ever realistically possible. Certainly not in my lifetime.

[Stingray 9,441]

Agree. Now, per say Israel does that. Can you promise that there will be no terror?

After all those years. No. Confidence will have to be built again. But just as much as Hamad is a fucking pain in the ass, so is right wing and certainly conservative (eg Rabin) Israël. So ...... Culture change which is hard now I believe. Still, i think Israël needs to make a good first step.

Uk had to go out on a limb with the IRA and ultimately Shin Fein to make it work. Wounds still never healed im sure.

[haranr 485]

After all those years. No. Confidence will gave to be built again. But just as much as Hamad is a fucking pain in the ass, so is right wing and certainly conservative (eg Rabin) Israël. Uk had to go out on a limb with the IRA and ultimately Shin Fein to make it work. Wounds still never healed im sure.

You have not suggested a thing. Israel gives them a state. Israel cannot control them, Israel certainly cannot attack them like Israel does now. There will be more attacks. Israel needs a 'partner'.

[Stingray 9,441]

You have not suggested a thing. Israel gives them a state. Israel cannot control them, Israel certainly cannot attack them like Israel does now. There will be more attacks. Israel needs a 'partner'.

1. Control is like a wet bar of soap. The harder you squeeze, the further it flies.

2. Drastically improve conditions to get Hamas out of order - as i said before, it is the agent israel put there to undermine PLO power that bites now.

3. Hope this creates a valid discussion partner, which you lost with the decline of PLO. You will need the peoples support for this.

4. Go for gradual full integration to actieve this.

5. How: full participation of the palestines - eventually. But start with the fundamentals - bit by bit. Give freedom and hope to them. It sounds fluffy but it really isnt. Self determination, freedom of movement, clarity about returning to their land ( or the impossibility of it)

6. Time ....... Too much time.

The alternative is to continue which is a ticking time bomb for the Middle East.

[haranr 485]

Right now? End the attack. End the siege on Gaza. Stop making new settlements. Offer much improved living conditions to the Palestinians to allow less extremists groups to take the front stage. Poor oppressed people make wars and revolutions. Free people with a decent life want nothing to do with war and violence. You want to stop the Hamas rockets? Give the Palestinian people a chance to have a good life and they will get rid of Hamas or anyone who wants to take away the peace they have.

To solve the entire conflict? Complete integration. One integrated state with people of all religions living side by side with equality. I do not believe the two-state solution can ever bring peace because there can be none while Jewish only state exists with dreams of the 'promised land'. The situation has to return to what it was like before the 1940s where Muslims, Jews and Christians lived in land together as equals. That is to me the ONLY route to peace. Though I cannot see how that is ever realistically possible. Certainly not in my lifetime.

End the attack? Sure. End the siege on Gaza? Sure. Will Hamas stop shooting??

Stop making new settlements you shouldn't have said. It's obvious and a fucking disgrace.Offer them improved living conditions with who's money? The state of Israel is not rich. Can you promise that the Islamic radicals only seek good life?? That is not true. Their ideology is above all. Can you promise that while most Palestines have a better life they won't let Hamas take control? You forgot Hamas are not democrats. Hamas will take power in force if needed. One integrated state with people of all religions living side by side with equality IS NOT possible. It's something I wish would have happened but with all the history of this conflict (hatred etc..) It's not possible.

'True peace' is not the target atm. The target is 'cold peace' simply because it's the reality right now. Two states is the soultion. The Israeli nation WILL HAVE given the Palestines a state IF they were promised it will 100% lead to peace or simply a better situation. Sadly, you are not aware that the majorty of the innocent Palestines are ruled by 'bad' rulers such as Hamas. In the West Bank they are ruled by a bunch of corrupt men who will likley lose their control to a more radical Islamic group in the very moment the Palestines are given a state. ATM, non of the sides are 'true' partners for peace.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

1. Control is like a wet bar of soap. The harder you squeeze, the further it flies.

2. Drastically improve conditions to get Hamas out of order - as i said before, it is the agent israel put there to undermine PLO power that bites now.

3. Hope this creates a valid discussion partner, which you lost with the decline of PLO. You will need the peoples support for this.

4. Go for gradual full integration to actieve this.

5. How: full participation of the palestines - eventually. But start with the fundamentals - bit by bit. Give freedom and hope to them. It sounds fluffy but it really isnt. Self determination, freedom of movement, clarity about returning to their land ( or the impossibility of it)

6. Time ....... Too much time.

The alternative is to continue which is a ticking time bomb for the Middle East.

Couldn't have said it better myself..