Politics & Stuff

[manpe 10,861]

17 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Yeah Estonia is definitely the most progressive - however in Riga a mate got loads of grief -''go back home'' etc. That said, you get arseholes everywhere

Yeah assholes are everywhere. I was also talking about football specifically, behaviour like this wouldn't be tolerated in this day. And because there are so few actual match-going spectators, offenders would be easily identified and banned. Generally speaking I can't deny that a lot of people are "racist" here, and by that I don't mean extreme violent loud racists, but mostly quiet prejudiced stereotyping racists. We are shy and keep everything to ourselves, so there is no massive persecution of black people like in Russia or whatever, only the odd dickhead here and there. This type of racism is more prevalent among the Soviet generation for obvious reasons, independence time Euro generation is now growing up and mentalities are shifting. However, this recent immigration floodgate and terrorist actions across the globe aren't helping, people are naturally more scared and hateful towards different kind and not just here, but everywhere. Bottom line is that Estonian racism cannot be compared to what you mean when you refer to Eastern Europe or Russia, totally different attitudes and people.

[manpe 10,861]

6 minutes ago, Spike said:

Would it really matter though? Why would someone go to the trouble of defending sub-Saharans when the country is nearly 100% white?

I don't understand your question, sorry.

[Spike 12,049]

2 minutes ago, manpe said:

I don't understand your question, sorry.

Why would Estonians care about racists when there isn't anyone to be racist towards?

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

2 minutes ago, manpe said:

Yeah assholes are everywhere. I was also talking about football specifically, behaviour like this wouldn't be tolerated in this day. And because there are so few actual match-going spectators, offenders would be easily identified and banned. Generally speaking I can't deny that a lot of people are "racist" here, and by that I don't mean extreme violent loud racists, but mostly quiet prejudiced stereotyping racists. We are shy and keep everything to ourselves, so there is no massive persecution of black people like in Russia or whatever, only the odd dickhead here and there. This type of racism is more prevalent among the Soviet generation for obvious reasons, independence time Euro generation is now growing up and mentalities are shifting. However, this recent immigration floodgate and terrorist actions across the globe aren't helping, people are naturally more scared and hateful towards different kind and not just here, but everywhere. Bottom line is that Estonian racism cannot be compared to what you mean when you refer to Eastern Europe or Russia, totally different attitudes and people.

Know what you mean, and the terrorism has heightened peoples fear of ''the other'' everywhere. With football attendance, and I am talking about everywhere, all the inhibitions are dispelled with group mentality and alcohol -so you get homophobic, racist, obscene chants etc - guaranteed there will be some at Wemberlee tomorrow ! To me the authorities go over the top in trying to police this. Like you say , if some arseholes do that in an Estonian crowd, the rest of the crowd normally step in. The same here. The only danger is when you get organised fascists infiltrating football crowds to incite - we had a lot of that in the 80s

 

[Spike 12,049]

7 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Know what you mean, and the terrorism has heightened peoples fear of ''the other'' everywhere. With football attendance, and I am talking about everywhere, all the inhibitions are dispelled with group mentality and alcohol -so you get homophobic, racist, obscene chants etc - guaranteed there will be some at Wemberlee tomorrow ! To me the authorities go over the top in trying to police this. Like you say , if some arseholes do that in an Estonian crowd, the rest of the crowd normally step in. The same here. The only danger is when you get organised fascists infiltrating football crowds to incite - we had a lot of that in the 80s

 

Were they actual fascists? Like they wanted a totalitarian one-party state with an emphasis on nationalism and military might? I didn't know fascism actually had any sort of movement in England outside of Oswald Mosely.

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

21 minutes ago, Spike said:

Were they actual fascists? Like they wanted a totalitarian one-party state with an emphasis on nationalism and military might? I didn't know fascism actually had any sort of movement in England outside of Oswald Mosely.

The BNP. Yeah, they were pretty fascist

[oxfordblues 299]

im Labour through and through

[manpe 10,861]

6 minutes ago, Spike said:

Why would Estonians care about racists when there isn't anyone to be racist towards?

Interesting question. I don't know how to answer that, why would anybody care about racists? Racially motivated criminal actions are rare over here, I think one of the main reasons is because like you said - there is no one to be racist against other than tourists. Talking about football, then there are (or have been) some black players in our clubs. Haven't heard about or witnessed any (serious) incidents. Throwing banana skins and making monkey noises would blow up the media and put pressure on governing bodies to do something about it. Our attendances in premier league games are measured in tens and hundreds, there are no big organized "ultras" groups to make trouble, and because of that solitary trouble-makers can be dealt with quickly without having it escalated into something more dangerous. Anyway, if aggressive racist behaviour is witnessed, people will care. Why? Because for every asshole there are 50 decent people.

[Spike 12,049]

13 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

The BNP. Yeah, they were pretty fascist

Just curious because most people don't use fascism in the traditional sense anymore. Nothing cracks me up more when people call Hitler a fascist. 

[cosmicway 1,333]

5 minutes ago, Spike said:

Just curious because most people don't use fascism in the traditional sense anymore. Nothing cracks me up more when people call Hitler a fascist. 

Hitler was one.
Apart from his other antics he believed in the "corporate state", the streamlined economy. This is a system in which the state dictates what economic activities are favoured or not favoured. That's not quite the same as making some types of business illegal but some stiff government control is at play. Thus if you are a chemist it's not illegal of course but you can't open a chemist's shop, because the state (the party) gives a limited number of licenses to whomever they like. This system resembles up to a certain point the Stalinist system but it's not quite the same of course, as Stalin says everything belongs to the state and there is no activity other than strictly state activity.

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

1 hour ago, Spike said:

Would it really matter though? Why would someone go to the trouble of defending sub-Saharans when the country is nearly 100% white?

Perhaps because they see them as human beings ? Maybe they don't like people being discriminated against just because of their race or colour of skin.

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

24 minutes ago, Spike said:

Just curious because most people don't use fascism in the traditional sense anymore. Nothing cracks me up more when people call Hitler a fascist. 

The BNP were a fascist organisation, as were the NF

[Spike 12,049]

55 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Perhaps because they see them as human beings ? Maybe they don't like people being discriminated against just because of their race or colour of skin.

That isn't the point. Manpe said' public racists would get their fair treatment in no time by other fans. Would you start a fight or a ruckus without someone that was being racist despite their being no-one around that is the intended target? No one has been discriminated, they aren't defending anyone, it would simply be an exercise in censorship. And from Manpe has said again it'd be better handled by the authorities as it seems the Estonian authorities have a handle on the situation.

 If I lived in a homogeneous society and a group of young men were spouting racist views down the street, I wouldn't make it my business to lecture them or attack them. I do not have the moral authority to change their minds, I can engage them in open discourse if they are willing but I cannot force a change of ideals. Just because I disagree with them doesn't mean I should intervene; the only time I would intervene if it was in a scenario that endangered another person. Of course ultimately you'd want to cultivate a culture where those sort of people are on the fringes of society but I as an individual have no right to do so. If I stab the air with the knife, I haven't hurt anyone, should I do it? No, I shouldn't.

[Spike 12,049]

There is the difference between FB and Manpe. The latter says 'interesting point'  and give his reasoning the former lectures with platitudes.

[Spike 12,049]

1 hour ago, cosmicway said:

Hitler was one.
Apart from his other antics he believed in the "corporate state", the streamlined economy. This is a system in which the state dictates what economic activities are favoured or not favoured. That's not quite the same as making some types of business illegal but some stiff government control is at play. Thus if you are a chemist it's not illegal of course but you can't open a chemist's shop, because the state (the party) gives a limited number of licenses to whomever they like. This system resembles up to a certain point the Stalinist system but it's not quite the same of course, as Stalin says everything belongs to the state and there is no activity other than strictly state activity.

That is a contentious statement because there has never been an agreement on what a fascist economy entails. Many scholars are in disagreement if the principals of fascism even address economic issues. The only thing we know for certain is the social aspects of fascism. 

[cosmicway 1,333]

2 minutes ago, Spike said:

That is a contentious statement because there has never been an agreement on what a fascist economy entails. Many scholars are in disagreement if the principals of fascism even address economic issues. The only thing we know for certain is the social aspects of fascism. 

That was basically Goerig's economic policy.
It's true however that 20th century fascists did not have the means to control economies by 100% - given that they were not keen on state ownership.
In the 21st century and in the 22nd century it will be different (assuming that in the 22nd century further fascistization will be needed).

[Spike 12,049]

Just now, cosmicway said:

That was basically Goerig's economic policy.
It's true however that 20th century fascists did not have the means to control economies by 100% - given that they were not keen on state ownership.
In the 21st century and in the 22nd century it will be different (assuming that in the 22nd century further fascistization will be needed).

But how many truly fascist states have existed? I count one with  threeothers being controversial. Italy being the obvious choice, Spain, Austria, and Portugal. The latter two being clerical fascism.

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

21 minutes ago, Spike said:

There is the difference between FB and Manpe. The latter says 'interesting point'  and give his reasoning the former lectures with platitudes.

I am so sorry if you were offended. It was not meant as a 'platitude'.

 

[Fulham Broadway 17,333]

37 minutes ago, Spike said:

That isn't the point. Manpe said' public racists would get their fair treatment in no time by other fans.

That is the point. I agree with Manpe, he is saying fans would get their comeuppance if they were racist. Don't you think that would be a good thing ?

All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing

[cosmicway 1,333]

15 minutes ago, Spike said:

But how many truly fascist states have existed? I count one with  threeothers being controversial. Italy being the obvious choice, Spain, Austria, and Portugal. The latter two being clerical fascism.

In the year 1970 democracies were the Commonwealth-USA-EU-Japan-Israel. All the others were fascist.
The world's newest fascist state is UK.
The economic fascists are Greece.