Politics & Stuff

[Vesper 30,195]

While Campaigning for Catholic Votes, Trump Echoes the Klan

Today on TAP: He’ll speak at the Al Smith Dinner, while reviving the same hateful attacks that were levied against Smith.

https://prospect.org/blogs-and-newsletters/tap/2024-09-24-campaigning-for-catholic-votes-trump-echoes-klan/

A small-sized kerfuffle has broken out about this year’s Al Smith Dinner, an event hosted by the New York Archdiocese of the Catholic Church, to be held on October 17th. Every four years, the event usually features the two presidential candidates delivering humorous speeches, though there have been years when only one of those candidates appears. This is one of those years, as Kamala Harris’s campaign said she’ll not be attending, though Donald Trump has announced he’ll be there.

Harris’s campaign said the event conflicts with her swing-state schedule, though there’s clearly more to it than that. New York Archbishop Timothy Dolan, one of Pope Benedict’s Dark Ages appointees, who’ll preside over the dinner, has been a vociferous critic of the Democratic Party for quite some time, even penning a Wall Street Journal op-ed headlined “The Democrats Abandon Catholics.” As this is the first Al Smith dinner since the Supreme Court revoked American women’s right to an abortion, Harris likely concluded that the better part of valor was to steer clear.

But Trump’s appearance at the dinner is a complete outrage, though the Benedictine Dolan is surely too benighted to realize it.

The dinner is named after Al Smith—as the Democratic presidential nominee in 1928, the first Catholic to run for president. Smith was the son of immigrants; he was half Irish, one-quarter Italian, and one-quarter German. Raised in Manhattan’s impoverished Lower East Side, Smith’s secondary education took place not at a high school (for economic reasons, he had to drop out) but rather at the Fulton Fish Market. (When he served in New York’s legislature, where Republican leaders often called on their fellow Republicans to speak by introducing them with their university degrees [LLB, e.g.], Smith’s colleagues introduced him with the honorific “FFM.”) A product of Tammany Hall, though himself scrupulously honest, Smith rose to become Assembly Speaker and then New York’s governor for most of the 1920s, where he amassed a notably progressive record.

But he was Catholic, in a country that four years earlier had banned immigration from those European nations that weren’t predominantly Protestant. He was Catholic at a time when the Ku Klux Klan was at its greatest height, and when its focus was more anti-Catholic and antisemitic than it was anti-Black (which reflected its growth outside the South). He was not only Catholic but a staunch defender of equality for Blacks and Jews and every imaginable race, religion, nationality, and ethnic group that populated his beloved New York. And as he campaigned across the nation in the fall of 1928, the Klan burned crosses in the towns and cities he visited.

A typical attack on Smith that fall was that of South Carolina Protestant pastor Bob Jones Sr., who, referring to Smith’s opposition to Prohibition, nonetheless said, “I'll tell you, brother, that the big issue we’ve got to face ain’t the liquor question. I’d rather see a saloon on every corner of the South than see the foreigners elect Al Smith president.”

“Foreigners.” Immigrants from undesirable countries who had become citizens and dared to vote.

Smith responded to these attacks by extolling the unique strengths of what then was called a “melting pot” nation and excoriating the bigotry that was driving historically Democratic Southern whites to vote Republican (i.e., for Herbert Hoover). In his speech accepting his nomination, he said:

The rugged qualities of our immigrants have helped to develop our country, and their children have taken their places high in the annals of American history.

Every race has made its contribution to the betterment of America. While I stand squarely on our platform declaration that the laws which limit immigration must be preserved in full force and effect, I am heartily in favor of removing from the immigration law the harsh provision which separates families, and I am opposed to the principle of restriction based upon the figures of immigrant population contained in a census thirty-eight years old. I believe this is designed to discriminate against certain nationalities, and is an unwise policy.

(In his speech, Smith also decried U.S. military intervention in Nicaragua, and assailed corporate concentration, noting that “one-twentieth of one per cent of the 430,000 corporations in this country earned 40 per cent of their profits. Prosperity to the extent that we have it,” he continued, “is unduly concentrated and has not equitably touched the lives of the farmer, the wage-earner and the individual business man.” Smith’s speech, that is, prefigured much of the New Deal.)

Facing a huge nativist backlash, Smith was soundly defeated by Hoover.

So, consider the spectacle of Donald Trump speaking with the archbishop’s blessing at a dinner named in honor of Al Smith. It’s hard to imagine a greater antithesis to Smith’s values than Trump’s, who, along with his mini-me JD Vance, is centering his campaign on the very same nativist and bigoted appeals that Smith was victim to and that he condemned day after day. The 1928 antecedent for Trump isn’t Smith’s campaign; it’s the KKK’s.

(By the way, if you want to hear Smith’s paean to the strengths that immigrants bring to America, here’s a radio broadcast he delivered in 1943, shortly before his death. It’s also a wonderful display of the classic white working-class New York accent that has since all but disappeared.)

Edited September 24, 2024 by Vesper

[Thor 2,716]

5 hours ago, cosmicway said:

The extreme right makes tremendous pogress everywhere.
In America it is 50-50 as we know.
In Europe it's 30% to 40% on average.
Back in the eighties, nineties if one brought into conversation the antics of the extreme right wingers they called him a) funny, b) crazy, c) a probable secret commie or even highly probble.
Now it is dangerous, everyone knows.
To blame for this is the left and the communist left and no one else.
If nothing else, plain arithmetic proves this.

 

lol no. 
 

Anything that isn’t left these days is deemed far right. You really want people to sit here and believe 50% are far right? What a ridiculous statement. 
 

It’s closer to the 1-5% range. 

[NikkiCFC 8,326]

5 minutes ago, Thor said:

lol no. 
 

Anything that isn’t left these days is deemed far right. You really want people to sit here and believe 50% are far right? What a ridiculous statement. 
 

It’s closer to the 1-5% range. 

Many people disagree with you and consider Trump and his voters far right. I personally don't think he has any ideology and will do anything to stay in power but is constantly saying some crazy things which absolutely attract those people. 

 

[cosmicway 1,333]

26 minutes ago, Thor said:

lol no. 
 

Anything that isn’t left these days is deemed far right. You really want people to sit here and believe 50% are far right? What a ridiculous statement. 
 

It’s closer to the 1-5% range. 

Trump has more than elements of far-rightness and he is at ~50%.
Lepen in France every five years makes progress. 33.90% in 2017, 41.5% in 2022.
Brexit 51.5% and was based by 99.8% on the far right platform "foreigners out".

To the left everything not left is ... fascist, indeed (I know a leftie from schooldays who is a Shakespearian actor as well and he calls me ... fascist every time) .
But that's what I 'm talking about and these people having lost their marbles create the present problem.

[Vesper 30,195]

Economists as Apologists

Too much of the profession operates as the ideological department of predatory capitalism.

https://prospect.org/economy/2024-09-24-economists-as-apologists/

 

One of the great achievements of the Biden administration has been to bring antitrust enforcement back from near-death, after four decades during which most economists and law professors who are supposedly expert in the field taught that antitrust was unnecessary and even perverse. During this period, with little or no antitrust enforcement, major industries became more highly concentrated and more abusive to both consumers and potential competitors. Market power was real, even if the experts denied it.

Three of the leaders in the Biden effort to smoke out and prosecute abusive economic concentration are Lina Khan, chair of the Federal Trade Commission; Rohit Chopra, who leads the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau; and Jonathan Kanter, head of the Antitrust Division of the Justice Department. All of them have had a big backstage assist from Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA).

A couple of weeks ago, Assistant AG Kanter gave a landmark speech in which he pointed to the corrupted and corrupting effects on economic concentration of supposed economic experts, who are rewarded handsomely by their corporate clients for testifying against antitrust enforcement. The law and economics specialty offers a splendid career dwelling in the safe, orthodox precincts of an economics department or law school and then making a bundle on the side as a consultant. He said, in part:

Let me start by asking you what these three stories have in common:

• Story one—an international enforcer attended an event thinking they were receiving training from experts associated with the U.S. government. Later, they were shocked to learn the training was funded by companies the enforcer was scrutinizing, with topics and content geared toward encouraging non-intervention.
• Story two—an academic associated with an institute funded by several large technology firms signed an amicus brief opposing a country’s enforcement action. Later, without disclosing that fact, they gave a purportedly expert presentation at the OECD attacking that same enforcement action and advocating the OECD take a position favoring the institute’s funders.
• Story three—a Court of Appeals cited an economic study written by a professor paid by the defendants in support of the defendants’ litigation position. But the paper had no disclosure and so the court had no way to know it was citing advocacy, not merely academic expertise. That appellate decision has become binding precedent in some courts that impacts scores of unrelated cases.

The first and second examples involve George Mason University, which is funded by the Koch family and numerous tech companies. The third is about Joshua Wright, a former professor at George Mason, and the case involved an FTC lawsuit during the Trump administration against Qualcomm, a tech firm that paid him to advocate without disclosure. Wright, who for years was Google’s secret weapon in fighting off antitrust lawsuits and whom several women have accused of sexual harassment and misconduct, was the subject of an excellent three-part series at The Wall Street Journal on his serial conflicts of interest.

Extreme economic concentration, the emblematic economic trend of our era, should be a leading field of economic scholarly inquiry today. But mostly it isn’t. And to the extent that it is, the field is heavily corrupted. As Kanter said in his speech, “Economics teaches that incentives matter. And the inevitable incentive of that flow of money is to distort the academic dialogue and reshape expertise into advocacy.”

Academic consultants can make as much as $1,000 an hour as experts for companies trying to merge; one University of Chicago professor named Dennis Carlton has earned over $100 million from work like this. Corporate consulting is frequently not disclosed in academic or popular writing. Judges are taught through corporate-underwritten events, like one coming up next month at George Mason’s Law and Economics Center on blockchain and crypto, how to rule in cases involving corporate interests. “It is increasingly rare to encounter a truly neutral academic expert,” Kanter concluded.

The trick here is that corporations are able to cloak their advocacy in the form of “independent” validation with something that has an academic imprimatur. In reality, it’s all bought and paid for, but it sounds just enough like a third party for some people to be fooled.

Orthodox economics has long functioned as an apologist for raw capitalism and for what somebody called the ruling class.

But sometimes the connections are too obvious. In the antitrust trial being heard right now between the Justice Department and Google over its advertising technology subsidiaries, Daniel Crane, a University of Michigan professor who is a counsel for corporate law firm Paul, Weiss on antitrust matters, was blocked from the case because he had worked for Google’s rivals previously, and had too much insight into their practices that Google could exploit in the trial.

Orthodox economics has long functioned as an apologist for raw capitalism and for what somebody called the ruling class. If markets are efficient by definition, it makes no sense to meddle with them. The idea that markets are inefficient more often than not is ruled out of order by the profession’s core assumptions. This is what makes standard economics less of a discipline than a religion. For a mainstream economist, to question the premise of usually efficient markets is like a Catholic deciding to question the Holy Trinity.

The fact that a market economy would allow extreme concentration is uncomfortable for mainstream economists to acknowledge, because it defies the core conviction of the discipline—that markets are ordinarily self-correcting and thus mostly efficient. If a monopolist abused market power and excessively raised prices, wouldn’t someone else enter the market and offer competition? That’s what standard theory teaches. Standard theory doesn’t know from monopolists buying up or crushing potential rivals.

These practices can’t be fully captured in statistics or modeled in algebra, the idiom of mainstream economics. To grasp what is occurring, you have to get out of the office and talk to a lot of people off the record. That’s the work of lesser professions like journalists.

I have spent much of my professional life challenging these assumptions, in books and in innumerable articles. As I wrote in this Prospect piece, the good news is that heterodox economics is getting more of a respectful hearing nowadays. If you are very good, you can get tenure at a major economics department by studying the inequities and anomalies in the real world rather than by playing with models and manipulating algebra.

The Economic Policy Institute, founded in 1986, gets a good deal of the credit. Our colleague Harold Meyerson has just written this history of EPI and its increasing influence.

However, as academic economics has begun to open, the capitalist system has become more concentrated and more corrupt. Private equity keeps taking over more and more companies, not to improve them but to extract value. The hospital industry is becoming ever more concentrated, not to improve health care but to maximize market power. Government bureaucracies are deemed inefficient by orthodox economists, but the bigger curse today is impenetrable private bureaucracies.

Too few economists study these trends, and even fewer are serious about proposing remedies. As the Prospect covers all this, we find the patterns and details of what’s been occurring by doing our own original research and reporting, not by exploring economics journals.

[Thor 2,716]

1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

Many people disagree with you and consider Trump and his voters far right. I personally don't think he has any ideology and will do anything to stay in power but is constantly saying some crazy things which absolutely attract those people. 

 

Yes going on Reddit and seeing what a bunch of left leaning people think doesn’t mean it is. 
 

In the same way if right leaning people labelled Harris as a communist and akin to Venezuela in terms of how she runs things. 
 

Neither of these comments hold any merit. 
 

And politically - in his first term - Trumps actual policies were far more centric left leaning than right. No one actually wants to dive into that debate. His rhetoric and any behaviours you want to disagree with - whatever - but his policies, particularly economy wise aren’t close to this right leaning viewpoint. 

[Thor 2,716]

1 hour ago, cosmicway said:

Trump has more than elements of far-rightness and he is at ~50%.
Lepen in France every five years makes progress. 33.90% in 2017, 41.5% in 2022.
Brexit 51.5% and was based by 99.8% on the far right platform "foreigners out".

To the left everything not left is ... fascist, indeed (I know a leftie from schooldays who is a Shakespearian actor as well and he calls me ... fascist every time) .
But that's what I 'm talking about and these people having lost their marbles create the present problem.

What are his elements of far rightness? 

[robsblubot 3,595]

5 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

Many people disagree with you and consider Trump and his voters far right. I personally don't think he has any ideology and will do anything to stay in power but is constantly saying some crazy things which absolutely attract those people. 

 

You are right; Trump is a transactional character... he has no ideology. Once registered democrat, not the leader of the Republican Party. It makes no difference who backs him as long as someone does.

3 hours ago, Thor said:

Yes going on Reddit and seeing what a bunch of left leaning people think doesn’t mean it is. 
 

In the same way if right leaning people labelled Harris as a communist and akin to Venezuela in terms of how she runs things. 
 

Neither of these comments hold any merit. 
 

And politically - in his first term - Trumps actual policies were far more centric left leaning than right. No one actually wants to dive into that debate. His rhetoric and any behaviours you want to disagree with - whatever - but his policies, particularly economy wise aren’t close to this right leaning viewpoint. 

You are not wrong, but it's irrelevant.

Trump is not far-right, but that does not matter nor is it the issue with Trump; MAGA and many of his strongest supporters are absolutely as far-right as it gets though. Suffice to listen to his own VP talk about reproductive rights, or the judges Trump appointed to the Supreme Court (all very right-leaning judges) after all they reversed Roe v. Wade for his religious base (a very unpopular position that may cost him the election). Trump famously once said, "very fine people on both sides" with one side being the neo-Nazis.

There are very stupid things that bother me about the far-left, but I never ever hear Democratic leaders talk about them much less actually act on them. Biden did not do it, and Kamala looks even more right-leaning than Biden (gun owner, former Prosecutor). They are all law-abiding people, while Trump isn't... and that is precisely how he's different.

Do you know there are a many republicans who do not support Trump and MAGA? the most vocal group is https://lincolnproject.us but they aren't the only ones. It's not because he's far-right, but because they think Trump is a dangerous person who will do pretty bad things like he did in his last month as president. There are SO MANY unprecedented things about Donald Trump that is actually funny to hear the notion he's just like a regular politician we disagree with.

As President, Trump surrounded himself with yes-men, not to mention his own family and friends (unprecedented nepotism). That's not an opinion, but what happened. I really like to stick with facts as much a possible. I expect him to do more of the same, but now vowing retribution--he won't accomplish that surrounding himself with career politicians. He already said that he admires Putin because he answers to no-one. He already got some of that power from his Supreme Court (immunity ruling), and he will get a lot more if elected.

We seem to be going in circles here. Either you know and care about some of the shit he pulled off and is facing prosecution for, like find 11,780 votes or perhaps you never bothered to really learn about what he did as president; how he operated and who he surrounded himself with. Perhaps you just don't care that much, but then again, you roam this area a lot for someone "who does not care."

The third option goes into right and wrong, so I rather presume we are on the same page there.

 

[NikkiCFC 8,326]

Congrats Kamala for the win 👏 

Our president endorsed Hillary in 2016. Trump in 2020 and now again Trump it looks like. And he is always wrong. 

Trump Jr. was in Belgrade yesterday and even Kushner visited some months ago. Will build hotels here. So it's clear where this is going. 

Edited September 25, 2024 by NikkiCFC

[Fernando 6,585]

12 hours ago, Vesper said:

and you can add another 25 to 30 billion plus USD to the total since this chart ended in April, 2024

Military is because Israel has many enemies, more so the other countries. Now Ukraine is starting to go up because of the war with Russia. 

But what I'm more interested is in Economic. For Israel to get the same as Egypt and Israel economies one of the best then it's based on their genius way of handling economy. 

Edited September 25, 2024 by Fernando

[Fulham Broadway 17,319]

58 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Military is because Israel has many enemies, more so the other countries. Now Ukraine is starting to go up because of the war with Russia. 

But what I'm more interested is in Economic. For Israel to get the same as Egypt and Israel economies one of the best then it's based on their genius way of handling economy. 

Yes they have a few enemies , but they cultivate, and provoke a response. Starting with the Occupation, daily killing and apartheid system. 

Many Zionists have stated  this also

 

[Fernando 6,585]

1 hour ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Yes they have a few enemies , but they cultivate, and provoke a response. Starting with the Occupation, daily killing and apartheid system. 

Many Zionists have stated  this also

 

When you say occupation what do you mean by that? 

Are you referring to the land giving by the UK and UN in 1948 to Israel after the holocaust? 

Or something else? 

[Fulham Broadway 17,319]

3 hours ago, Fernando said:

When you say occupation what do you mean by that? 

Are you referring to the land giving by the UK and UN in 1948 to Israel after the holocaust? 

Or something else? 

Well if we ignore the daily killing maiming and destruction -israel has expanded and expanded since 1948. 

Israeli–Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia This explains some - but the problem with Wiki is that there are whole Israeli teams in call centres and offices dedicated to erasing anything detrimental to Israel on wiki or anywhere online.

Endless media about Oct 7th, yet only last week Israeli troops with all their US equipment invaded territory on the West Bank and shut down a global media office -where is the outrage ?

Haha just googled 'Israeli Occupation of Palestine' there were 3 articles quoting the UN but when you click on them 'page can not be reached'

There is this ICJ says Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal - BBC News

 

[Vesper 30,195]

3 hours ago, Fernando said:

When you say occupation what do you mean by that? 

Are you referring to the land giving by the UK and UN in 1948 to Israel after the holocaust? 

Or something else? 

 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

^The British mandate for Palestine, which began in 1922, ended prior to Israel’s declaration of independence on May 14, 1948. The Arab states invaded, and following the war, Palestine ceased to exist. The figures for 1948 are for the State of Israel. The figures prior to 1970 do not include the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, or the Golan Heights, which were occupied by Jordan, Egypt, and Syria, respectively. From 1970, the figures only include citizens of Israel and not Palestinians living in the disputed territories.

*As of May 9, 2024. Note Census bureau said the percentage of Jews was 73.2%.

---

Sources: Israel Central Bureau of Statistics.
Israel in the Middle East: Documents and Readings on Society, Politics, and Foreign Relations, Pre-1948 to the Present, Ed. by Itamar Rabinovich and Jehuda Reinharz, Brandeis University Press, Waltham, Mass., 2008. (pp. 571-572).
Berman Jewish Data Bank.
“Israel’s population 8.972m on eve of 2019,” Globus, (December 31, 2018).
Zeev Klein, “Israel reaches another milestone as population crosses 9 million,” Israel Hayom, (May 2, 2019).
“Israel’s population tops 9 million, including 45% of world Jewry,” Times of Israel, (May 6, 2019).
Eytan Halon,” Israeli Population To Soar To 15.2 Million By 100th Anniversary,” Jerusalem Post, (May 7, 2019).
Gad Lior, “Independence Day 2019 – a party for more than 9 million Israelis,” Ynet, (May 8, 2019).
“Jewish Population in the World and in Israel,” Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics Table 2.11.
“Israel’s population tops 9 million as Jewish new year approaches,” Times of Israel, (September 26, 2019).
“Israel’s population at 9,136,000 on the eve of 2020,” Jerusalem Post, (January 1, 2020).
“Ahead of 72nd Independence Day, Israeli population stands at 9.2 million,” Times of Israel, (April 26, 2020).
Della Pergola Demography in Israel. Brazil lecture 5 in Sylvia Maier, “Demographic Trends in Israel in the Arab and Jewish Populations: Possible Policy Implications,” Master’s Thesis, MS Global Affairs-NYU Center for Global Affairs, (Spring 2010).
“Israel’s population up to 9.25 million, though growth rate, immigration down,” Times of Israel, (September 16, 2020).
Moshe Cohen, “Jewish population at lowest percentage since founding of Israel,” Jerusalem Post, (April 12, 2021).
Ofer Aderet, “On Jewish New Year’s Eve, Israel's Population Reaches 9.4 Million,” Haaretz, (September 5, 2021).
“Israel’s population approaches 9.7 million as 2022 comes to an end,” Times of Israel, (December 29, 2022).
“Israeli population rises to 9.795 million on Rosh Hashanah eve,” Times of Israel, (September 14, 2023).

 

From 2014 (Israel has taken more land in the ten years since then):

 

[Fernando 6,585]

7 minutes ago, Vesper said:

 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-and-non-jewish-population-of-israel-palestine-1517-present

^The British mandate for Palestine, which began in 1922, ended prior to Israel’s declaration of independence on May 14, 1948. The Arab states invaded, and following the war, Palestine ceased to exist. The figures for 1948 are for the State of Israel. The figures prior to 1970 do not include the West Bank and East Jerusalem, the Gaza Strip, or the Golan Heights, which were occupied by Jordan, Egypt, and Syria, respectively. From 1970, the figures only include citizens of Israel and not Palestinians living in the disputed territories.

*As of May 9, 2024. Note Census bureau said the percentage of Jews was 73.2%.

---

Sources: Israel Central Bureau of Statistics.
Israel in the Middle East: Documents and Readings on Society, Politics, and Foreign Relations, Pre-1948 to the Present, Ed. by Itamar Rabinovich and Jehuda Reinharz, Brandeis University Press, Waltham, Mass., 2008. (pp. 571-572).
Berman Jewish Data Bank.
“Israel’s population 8.972m on eve of 2019,” Globus, (December 31, 2018).
Zeev Klein, “Israel reaches another milestone as population crosses 9 million,” Israel Hayom, (May 2, 2019).
“Israel’s population tops 9 million, including 45% of world Jewry,” Times of Israel, (May 6, 2019).
Eytan Halon,” Israeli Population To Soar To 15.2 Million By 100th Anniversary,” Jerusalem Post, (May 7, 2019).
Gad Lior, “Independence Day 2019 – a party for more than 9 million Israelis,” Ynet, (May 8, 2019).
“Jewish Population in the World and in Israel,” Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics Table 2.11.
“Israel’s population tops 9 million as Jewish new year approaches,” Times of Israel, (September 26, 2019).
“Israel’s population at 9,136,000 on the eve of 2020,” Jerusalem Post, (January 1, 2020).
“Ahead of 72nd Independence Day, Israeli population stands at 9.2 million,” Times of Israel, (April 26, 2020).
Della Pergola Demography in Israel. Brazil lecture 5 in Sylvia Maier, “Demographic Trends in Israel in the Arab and Jewish Populations: Possible Policy Implications,” Master’s Thesis, MS Global Affairs-NYU Center for Global Affairs, (Spring 2010).
“Israel’s population up to 9.25 million, though growth rate, immigration down,” Times of Israel, (September 16, 2020).
Moshe Cohen, “Jewish population at lowest percentage since founding of Israel,” Jerusalem Post, (April 12, 2021).
Ofer Aderet, “On Jewish New Year’s Eve, Israel's Population Reaches 9.4 Million,” Haaretz, (September 5, 2021).
“Israel’s population approaches 9.7 million as 2022 comes to an end,” Times of Israel, (December 29, 2022).
“Israeli population rises to 9.795 million on Rosh Hashanah eve,” Times of Israel, (September 14, 2023).

 

From 2014 (Israel has taken more land in the ten years since then):

 

Okay what it is supposed to be the land that they got in 1948 and what is the occopuied?

Do you have a map to see the difference? Between the one that was giving and the one that occupied? Thanks for the info. 

[Fernando 6,585]

11 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Well if we ignore the daily killing maiming and destruction -israel has expanded and expanded since 1948. 

Israeli–Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia This explains some - but the problem with Wiki is that there are whole Israeli teams in call centres and offices dedicated to erasing anything detrimental to Israel on wiki or anywhere online.

Endless media about Oct 7th, yet only last week Israeli troops with all their US equipment invaded territory on the West Bank and shut down a global media office -where is the outrage ?

Haha just googled 'Israeli Occupation of Palestine' there were 3 articles quoting the UN but when you click on them 'page can not be reached'

There is this ICJ says Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories is illegal - BBC News

 

I think October 7th is one thing and a war something. 

One was a moment of peace that started the war. Now in a war every crazy thing happen. 

Even from the supposed "good" guys. So yes not defending every action of Israel because in war ugly stuff will happen. And whenever it finish justice will be done. 

So anyone that done bad stuff in the Israeli side will face punishment just like it happen in the US, when some soldiers did many bad stuff. 

[Fulham Broadway 17,319]

1 minute ago, Fernando said:

One was a moment of peace that started the war

The only problem with that narrative is that 94% of deaths before Oct 7th were Palestinian.  Daily deaths, torture, anal rape and imprisonment with no trial was thnorm for years before October 7th

When Ukraine fights back against occupation they are heroes - when Palestinians do it they are 'terrorists'. This is Industrial sized hypocrisy in action.

Not surprising when Israel is essentially a Colonial Outpost, an attack dog for the West in the middle east.

[Vesper 30,195]

11 minutes ago, Fernando said:

Okay what it is supposed to be the land that they got in 1948 and what is the occopuied?

Do you have a map to see the difference? Between the one that was giving and the one that occupied? Thanks for the info. 

Ten maps to understand the occupied West Bank

Since 1967, Israel has occupied the West Bank. Here are 10 maps showing how military control affects Palestinian lives.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/9/16/ten-maps-to-understand-the-occupied-west-bank

 

As Israel’s war on Gaza, which has killed more than 41,000 people, nears one year, assaults in the occupied West Bank continue, with at least 703 people killed by Israeli forces since October 7.

Despite Gaza and the West Bank being just 33km (21 miles) apart at their closest points, Israeli restrictions have long prevented travel and interaction between the two Palestinian territories, even before the recent conflict.

To better understand the effect of these restrictions and the situation on the ground, here is a visual overview of the geography, history and living conditions of the millions of Palestinians in the West Bank.

1 – How big is the occupied West Bank?

The West Bank, including occupied East Jerusalem, covers a land area of 5,655sq km (2,183sq miles), making it about 15 times larger than the Gaza Strip, spread over 365sq km (141sq miles).

Compared with other places around the world, the kidney bean-shaped West Bank is roughly the same size as Delaware in the United States or Bali in Indonesia. It is about half the size of Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom and approximately a third of the size of Gauteng province in South Africa.

2 – How did the West Bank get its name?

The West Bank, called al-Daffah in Arabic, is located on the western side of the Jordan River, from which it derives its name.

The 251km (156 miles) long river flows from the Lebanese mountains to the Dead Sea, adding fertile soil to the surrounding valley. The Jordan Valley makes up 30 percent of the West Bank and constitutes half of its agricultural land.

Due to tight Israeli controls and restrictions, Palestinians do not have their own airport. Instead, to travel in and out of the West Bank, Palestinians with the necessary permits must use the King Hussein (Allenby) Bridge over the Jordan River to reach Jordan and onward destinations.

3 – How many people live in the West Bank?

The West Bank, with approximately 3.3 million Palestinian inhabitants, has roughly one million more residents than Gaza.

The West Bank is divided into 11 governorates. Hebron, or al-Khalil in Arabic, is the most populous governorate with about 842,000 residents. It is followed by Jerusalem (500,000), Nablus (440,000), Ramallah and el-Bireh (337,000) and Jenin (360,000).

Additionally, about 700,000 Israelis live in illegal settlements on Palestinian land. More on Israeli settlers later.

4 – Israeli occupation of the West Bank

Since 1967, Israel has maintained a military occupation of the West Bank, involving arrests, checkpoints, home invasions, demolitions and frequent raids and assaults.

To better understand the daily struggles Palestinians face under Israeli occupation, take a look at this illustrated guide.

In the past 12 months, Israel demolished at least 1,697 Palestinian structures, primarily homes, displacing 4,233 people, according to United Nations figures. This amounts to an average of five structures destroyed per day.

The figures for 2024 represent the highest number of structures destroyed in one year since the UN began tracking in 2009.

Over the past 15 years, Israel has demolished at least 11,500 Palestinian-owned structures, with three-quarters of those located in Area C.

5 – The differences between Areas A, B, and C

As part of the 1993 Oslo Accords, signed by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and Israel, the occupied West Bank was divided into three areas – A, B and C.

The Oslo Accords represented the first direct Palestinian-Israeli peace agreement. This led to the formation of the Palestinian Authority (PA) – an administrative body that would govern Palestinian internal security, administration and civilian affairs in areas of self-rule, for a five-year interim period.

Area A initially comprised 3 percent of the West Bank and grew to 18 percent by 1999. In Area A, the PA controls most affairs.

Area B represents about 22 percent of the West Bank. In both areas, while the PA is in charge of education, health and the economy, the Israelis have full control of external security, meaning they retain the right to enter at any time.

Area C represents 60 percent of the West Bank. Under the Oslo Accords, control of this area was supposed to be handed over to the PA. Instead, Israel retains total control over all matters, including security, planning and construction. The transfer of control to the PA never happened.

6 – Illegal Israeli settlement expansion

Israeli settlements are Jewish communities built on Palestinian land. Roughly 700,000 Israeli settlers are living in at least 250 settlements and outposts in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem.

Israeli settlements are illegal under international law as they violate the Fourth Geneva Convention, which prohibits an occupying power from transferring its population to the area it occupies.

The settler population is growing faster than Israel’s overall population, with about 10 percent of Israel’s 6.8 million Jewish citizens living in these areas. Settlers receive Israeli citizenship and government subsidies that lower their cost of living.

7 – Israeli separation wall and checkpoints

Since 2002, Israel has been constructing a wall that stretches for more than 700km (435 miles), cutting deep into Palestinian territory.

Israel has also constructed hundreds of road obstacles and checkpoints, severely limiting Palestinian freedom of movement.

While Palestinians may have to wait for hours at these checkpoints and travel along segregated road networks, Israelis can travel freely on their own “bypass roads” which have been built on Palestinian land to connect illegal Israeli settlements to major metropolitan areas inside Israel.

8 – Occupied East Jerusalem and the Old City

Jerusalem, a city sacred to Muslims, Christians, and Jews, has had West Jerusalem under Israeli control since 1948, with a Jewish majority. East Jerusalem, including the Old City, has been under Israeli occupation since 1967 and is mostly Palestinian.

Since its annexation in 1980, Israel has considered the entire city of Jerusalem a part of its territory. This is not internationally recognised. For this reason, Israeli maps do not show East Jerusalem a part of the occupied West Bank.

The Old City, located in East Jerusalem, is home to some of the holiest sites in Islam, Judaism and Christianity. The area, which is smaller than 1sq km (0.39sq miles), is home to Al-Aqsa Mosque, the Western Wall, St James Cathedral and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, among others.

9 – Palestinian refugee camps

The West Bank is home to at least 870,000 registered refugees, with about 25 percent living in 19 camps established after the 1948 Nakba.

On May 14, 1948, the British Mandate expired and Zionist leaders announced they would be declaring a state, triggering the first Arab-Israeli war.

Zionist gangs expelled some 750,000 Palestinians and captured 78 percent of the land. The remaining 22 percent was divided into the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

Some 1.5 million Palestinian refugees are living in 58 official UN camps located throughout Palestine and neighbouring countries. In total, there are at least 5.9 million registered Palestinian refugees mostly living outside of these camps.

The plight of Palestinian refugees is the longest, unresolved refugee problem in the world.

10 – Israeli assaults on the West Bank

Since launching its severest raids in two decades on August 28, Israeli forces have killed at least 50 Palestinians across the West Bank.

The assaults involved hundreds of ground soldiers advancing in bulldozers and armoured vehicles, supported by fighter jets and drones that dropped bombs.

 

The Take: Israel’s backdoor annexation of the occupied West Bank

Can Israel get away with the biggest land grab in 30 years in the West Bank and a secret annexation plan?

https://www.aljazeera.com/podcasts/2024/7/11/the-take-israels-backdoor-annexation-of-the-occupied-west-bank

A view shows the illegal Israeli settlement of Maale Adumim in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, February 25, 2020 [Ammar Awad/Reuters]

https://aje.io/cxlfu6

 

[robsblubot 3,595]

5 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

The only problem with that narrative is that 94% of deaths before Oct 7th were Palestinian.  Daily deaths, torture, anal rape and imprisonment with no trial was thnorm for years before October 7th

When Ukraine fights back against occupation they are heroes - when Palestinians do it they are 'terrorists'. This is Industrial sized hypocrisy in action.

Not surprising when Israel is essentially a Colonial Outpost, an attack dog for the West in the middle east.

That's because they are, terrorists. Textbook definition of a terrorist is one who targets civilians and without warning.

Your argument, that suggests that Palestinians got no other way to fight back, also applies to Israel when they attack areas where civilians may also get hurt.

This will only end with either a nuclear strike or a two-state solution, so I think I know what my preference is.

[Vesper 30,195]

11 minutes ago, Fulham Broadway said:

Not surprising when Israel is essentially a Colonial Outpost, an attack dog for the West in the middle east.

We call it (in geo-military terms) a regional cat's paw (as set up by the US/UK plus the global banking system).

The term comes from Le Singe et le Chat (The Monkey and the Cat) by Jean de La Fontaine, ca 1679.

http://www.la-fontaine-ch-thierry.net/singchat.htm

Bertrand with Raton, one a Monkey, and the other a Cat,
Commensals (1) of a house, had a common Master.
Of mischievous animals it was a very good dish (2);
They both feared none (3), whoever it might be.
Was anything found spoiled in the house?
No one attacked the people of the neighborhood.
Bertrand stole everything; Raton for his part
Was less attentive to mice than to cheese.
One day by the fireside our two rogue masters
          Watched chestnuts roasting;
Swindling them was a very good deal
Our gallants (4) saw double profit to be made,
Their good first, and then the harm of others.
Bertrand said to Raton: Brother, today 
          you must make a masterstroke.
Pull out these chestnuts; If God had made me born 
          Suitable for pulling chestnuts out of the fire,
          Certainly chestnuts would see fair play.
No sooner said than done: Raton with his paw,
          In a delicate manner,
Moves the ashes a little aside, and withdraws his fingers, 
          Then brings them back several times;
Pulls a chestnut, then two, and then three by swindling. 
          And yet (5) Bertrand crunches them.
A servant comes: farewell my people. Raton
         Was not happy, they say,
Nor (6) are most of these Princes 
          Who, flattered by such a job,
          Go to scald themselves (7) in the Provinces,
          For the profit of some King.

 

 

Sources: It seems difficult to choose between Les jours caniculaires by S. Maioli, translated into French by F. de Rosset in 1609, where the scene is in Rome at the home of Pope Julius II, and J. Régnier Apologi Phaedrii , 1643. In these authors, the monkey uses the strength of the cat's paw to remove the chestnuts from the fire. In La Fontaine, the monkey uses persuasion: the moralist knows well that by appealing to vanity one makes people act as well as by constraint (G. Couton, Garnier classics, fables, p.507). 
The deception is all the more successful since the intervention of the servant (who here plays the role of the ironic Fortune ) prevents the cat from even realizing that he has been duped: the duper and the duped communicate in the same discontent. This piquant undertow of the story is again the invention of La Fontaine ( M. Fumaroli, Fables, La Pochothèque, p. 932)

(1) officers of the king who were fed at court
(2) at the time it was said of 2 or 3 people of the same "genius", who were not worth much: that's a good dish.
(3) in the idea of doing wrong, they feared no one
(4) to be taken in the sense: skillful, adroit, who succeeds well in his affairs
(5) during this time
(6) similarly
(7) reference to Raton who burned his paw