🇪🇸 Juan Mata

[Barbara 15,149]

It seems to be the Chelsea fans that underrate him more than anything. Opposition fans rate him very, very highly.

Like Dion said, bar Barcelona (Messi) and Real (Ronaldo), I don't envy anyone else's star players at all. Mata is just as good as anyone out there when at his best, if not even better than most.

Also, I don't see why a team can't have more than one star player. Don't see what's wrong with considering both Hazard and Mata as our star players.

Or maybe we don't need a single star. We could be like Dortmund and Bayern, teams where it is really difficult to point THE star of the team. I wouldn't know who to point as the star of Dortmund team between Götze (when they had him), Reus, Lewandowski or even Gundogan. It's hard for Bayern too - Ribery, Bastian, Muller and Robben were all key to their success last season. What's the problem about having both Mata and Hazard as our key players? Or Mata, Hazard, Oscar, KDB? The more the better.

I agree with both of you as having more than one. We should have more than one. We will have more than one. He was the one the past couple of years... not the only one because I can't look back to the CL title without thinking Cech was maybe the most important player - as important as Didier actually.

Well, so let's hope I underrate the guy, others underrate Hazard (I don't see Oscar or Kevin really being stars this season already) and they both come with out-of-this-world football. I still think we can do better than we did with Mata the last couple of seasons, and that will probably come true with Hazard this season.

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Bar Madrid and Barcelona, I don't envy anyone's star players. Not even Ribery or Pirlo.

Yea i dont envy ribery because we have hazard, and i dont envy pirlo because he's too old. But you cant deny that all those players will come before anyone in chelsea in the world best list for the last two seasons (bar pirlo last season).

[Chelsea? 892]

Yea i dont envy ribery because we have hazard, and i dont envy pirlo because he's too old. But you cant deny that all those players will come before anyone in chelsea in the world best list for the last two seasons (bar pirlo last season).

Ribery vs Mata wouldn't be that obvious a choice.

[Jase 43,479]

You just further prove my point with this post. In a team there had huge midfield deficiencies and then two adapting players, Mata rose above all, but really, his ceiling isn't this high thing you seem to imagine. Nobody here - as far as I can say - thinks he's done in his growth,but just like every other 25yo player that there isn't that much left to improve. He will improve in things like the ones you mentioned, of course he will, every player working under Mourinho does, otherwise they visit the bench.

I don't think I imply that his ceiling will be very or extremely high but rather refuting others' argument that it's not as bad as they are making it out to be. Some already seem to suggest that his last season form was the best and he won't get any better. Improving his weaknesses is one thing but in regards to his growth and development, there is certainly still 1-2 notch he can step up and be even better. And about his weaknesses, if he can work his work around and get rid of it, then he can certainly get much better as a player because a weakness(es) is what sometimes hold a person (generally) back from achieving greater things.

But there's a reason players the same age as him had chances in Spain NT where he continues to be a reserve. And when VDB tried to use him in the starting XI against Brazil, he was one of the most useless players in the match... He did basically nothing for Spain and the team improved when Navas got in.

Think some had this argument before. Mata is never suited to play regularly for Spain, not when their game is still based around a short passing style and Mata's plays a more direct one. As for the match against Brazil, it's the same when he played with us at times. He won't be as effective as he can be if the fellas behind are useless and can't even do anything right to keep the ball and allow the attacking players to do damage. As for the Navas thing, not sure if they can really be compared when both are two completely different players and play in different manner. Furthermore when Navas came on, Brazil were already 3-0 up then and was in the process of taking their foot off the pedal. Only normal if suddenly Spain had better of the game and improved since then.

Which comes back to the point that against big teams with good defenses he tends to disappear because while being a hard worker, and consistent in his play, he isn't what I would call brilliant. Great yes, but not brilliant and that's my point since the beginning. Chelsea fans - on their majority - for the lack of a star in the midfield - made Mata seem much bigger than he really is.

Made him bigger than he is? No. What he did for us in the last 2 seasons was great and he deserves all the praise that has gone his way. If anything, it's social media these days that seem to make people overhype/overrate him with Twitter, Facebook, forums etc.

In teams with good midfielders he would never be THE player. Just the next great guy contributing to it. So according to your own post he needs better teammates to reach a certain level, whereas brilliant players are the ones that reverse a negative situation, by owing a zone in the pitch (and in rare cases even the whole team) and making a difference. So yeah.

If we are going to talk about midfielders here, we should be breaking down to the type of midfielders here since we can't generalize every player given the different positions. Mata is an advanced playmaker or an attacking midfielder and in the past 2 seasons, especially the last, he has excelled brilliantly in that role and owned that zone. It's tough to find anyone that did better than Mata in that advanced playmaker/attacking midfielder role. He's one of the best players, if the not best, in that role right now and can only get better.

And no, I did not say Mata needs better teammates to reach certain level. My point was if we are to keep possession better, dominate the game more and have a stronger midfield in the DM/CM area, then Mata would be able to shine even more and cause more damage working with the likes of Hazard, Oscar, Schurrle, De Bruyne. Last season, we couldn't even hold onto the ball long enough to save our lives but yet when we do get them and Mata is in control of them, he still managed to cause damage to the opposition. The circumstances in recent times where our first priority is to defend when we lose the ball and can't keep possession restricted our attacking players' ability to do maximum damage. If we can be aggressive, physical and dominate the ball the more often like we used to do it 3-4 seasons, then the creative players upfront, not just Mata, can express themselves and cause more chaos to the opposition.

Edited July 18, 2013 by BluesMaster

[kellzfresh 7,229]

Ribery vs Mata wouldn't be that obvious a choice.

Nope, ribery was bayerns best player and is in contention for ballon d or this season behind messi and ronaldo

I didn't think of Dortmund because Dortmund is a competitive team like us now, not a powerhouse in football. I forgot to add Juve though.

Bayern is much more a collective team than one-guy team imo. They have many guys that make them work like a machine. Ribery and Schweinsteiger might be the most noticeable ones. Both of which I rate higher than Mata... (and now I crossed the line )

I may have been harsh on him (didn't plan to)... I don't want him to go, I think he's going to be very important to us. I just think we need someone better to be our star... we may have that on Hazard this season already. Let's not forget for many Hazard was our best player last season... it isn't about how flashy Eden is. It's about how he will step up and solve matches for us when we are under pressure. It's about him standing up in matches that were important to us last season and Mata was nowhere to be found...

Mata doesnt disappear in big games like you say. But he doesnt like physical games or matches where opposition presses us, But when the opposition relaxes, mata has more space and automatically becomes our best player.

Thats why mourinho can help him develop his strength and workrate to make him even better, so that against high pressurizing teams like barcelona, brazil, juventus and mancity he could evade a yaya toure tackle, be strong enough on the ball without loosing it and still give that final pass we know he does well.

[Barbara 15,149]

@,

amazing post, mate

I will go against my own rules and will surprise you in the next MOTM bs thread next month.

Your posts are always a pleasure to read, Jay. I agree with a lot of things you said and of course (based in my own posts in the matter) disagree about some. But the way you answer those kind of posts is always amazing to read. Many great insights instead of theories that really aren't that practical in football.

[Jase 43,479]

@,

amazing post, mate

I will go against my own rules and will surprise you in the next MOTM bs thread next month.

Your posts are always a pleasure to read, Jay. I agree with a lot of things you said and of course (based in my own posts in the matter) disagree about some. But the way you answer those kind of posts is always amazing to read. Many great insights instead of theories that really aren't that practical in football.

So much praise in one post. Don't often get that.

Cheers nonetheless for the compliment.

[Barbara 15,149]

So much praise in one post. Don't often get that.

Cheers nonetheless for the compliment.

people aren't fair

And I like to have opinions refuted or confirmed with facts instead of theories. So that's why I appreciate that kind of post so much. But of course, everyone in the convo contributed as well, but I like the way you put it. I've seen you do the same in so many threads. Always respectful, always objective.

You even deserve a kitty in your twitter after that it's been a while after all

[JDY 1,290]

Why do you guys think it's taking so long for him to sign a new contract/club to offer him one? Hopefully he signs soon to put the rumours to bed.

[Barbara 15,149]

Why do you guys think it's taking so long for him to sign a new contract/club to offer him one? Hopefully he signs soon to put the rumours to bed.

I don't think he's leaving the club any time soon, there might be bids coming for all we know, that are just down right rejected...

[Stingray 9,441]

... instead of theories that really aren't that practical in football.

It may or may not be directed towards me. About stars and the research i quoted - it is not a theory. It is actually a paradigm often used by evidence based sport directors in football. In Belgium Anderlecht and Bruges do rely on that research for example. In the case of Club Bruges I even contributed myself.

Just in case you were having your postmodern jab at me.

Cheers.

[JDY 1,290]

I don't think he's leaving the club any time soon, there might be bids coming for all we know, that are just down right rejected...

I don't think he is either, but it's annoying hearing the constant stories being made up trying to unsettle him.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

A quick reminder of the effect that Mata has had on our team in the past two seasons: http://squawka.com/news/2013/07/17/no-way-jose-why-chelsea-would-be-mad-to-cash-in-on-mata/2013071714033

[Barbara 15,149]

It may or may not be directed towards me. About stars and the research i quoted - it is not a theory. It is actually a paradigm often used by evidence based sport directors in football. In Belgium Anderlecht and Bruges do rely on that research for example. In the case of Club Bruges I even contributed myself.

Just in case you were having your postmodern jab at me.

Cheers.

huh?

I didn't even read this thing you mentioned you said... was it in this thread?

What I meant is the whole 'I wouldn't trade him for this, this and that player' (when we were discussing the other guys in other teams) because 1) it won't happen 2) if one of those guys come here, it doesn't mean they can't play by his side...

I really have no idea what you're talking about, but I'll go back in the thread and try to see. Either way, I can't opinion because I didn't read.... if you want I can give you an opinion on that once I read said post

I don't think he is either, but it's annoying hearing the constant stories being made up trying to unsettle him.

Well, the only one I heard associating him with a club is the Rooney story. The rest just said we were selling him but they didn't even bother to come up with teams, did they?

A quick reminder of the effect that Mata has had on our team in the past two seasons: http://squawka.com/news/2013/07/17/no-way-jose-why-chelsea-would-be-mad-to-cash-in-on-mata/2013071714033

I gave up trying to make my point

it isn't about him being useless or bad, but I'm going to hope he has even a better season under Jose

[Bir_CFC 3,455]

I can see De Bruyne take over Mata because he's probably the most creative after Mata but Oscar and Hazard can't hold a candle to Mata's vision and creativeness. Nothing wrong with that because they both bring other strengths to the team but from a strictly player role point of view, Mata is in a league of his own in terms of creativity.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I gave up trying to make my point

it isn't about him being useless or bad, but I'm going to hope he has even a better season under Jose

Sorry, but I didn't even read your point! I saw a lot of long posts and I don't have the time to read them now. I was just sharing a good article I found about Mata in light of the recent rumors of us selling him..

[Stingray 9,441]

It may or may not be directed towards me. About stars and the research i quoted - it is not a theory. It is actually a paradigm often used by evidence based sport directors in football. In Belgium Anderlecht and Bruges do rely on that research for example. In the case of Club Bruges I even contributed myself.

Just in case you were having your postmodern jab at me.

Cheers.

huh?

I didn't even read this thing you mentioned you said... was it in this thread?

What I meant is the whole 'I wouldn't trade him for this, this and that player' (when we were discussing the other guys in other teams) because 1) it won't happen 2) if one of those guys come here, it doesn't mean they can't play by his side...

I really have no idea what you're talking about, but I'll go back in the thread and try to see. Either way, I can't opinion because I didn't read.... if you want I can give you an opinion on that once I read said post

My bad. I think you can apologize me a bit thinking it - after our recent pub clash.

[Barbara 15,149]

I do agree on this. Mata may not be Messi or Ronaldo like .... The proof of the pudding is in the eating and he delivered brilliantly last season. We can be a powerhouse with Mata in the team. I think this whole point is being polarized beyond reason.

If Mata ever gets 'replaced' by someone else to 'better' the team, it will happen automatically - step by step.

No need to fuss. Also: having one star in a team isn't a sure way to succes. It can be your downfall as well.

This one I read - sort of. I hate this expression 'The proof of the pudding is in the eating' so I admit I stopped reading the moment I read it

I'm picky like that, but I have a few pet peeves, and that expression is one of them, so I sort of predicted the kind of thing that was to come and didn't continue reading (a mistake as you didn't carry a point I though you would).

I do agree with the bold part though.

Exactly. Btw recent research into motivation (Deci and Ryan- on selfdetermination) has indicated that the global team performance drops when you single out - explicitly or implicitly - someone as a 'star'. I quite oppose that very idea actually.

I also believe that part of Mou's succes is exactly this! A hardcore refusal to treat anyone like a star - only focus on the group performance.

Well - food for a future article. I promise.

this one I suppose is the one you meant and I totally missed it. It was probably while I was writing one of the responses...

I sort of disagree about Mou. The way you see him handling Ronaldo and Sneijder in both RM and Inter makes it obvious to me they were treated somewhat differently - but not to a fault. Which is why he was so successful in both. I think he doesn't favor any players because of their reputation over others, and I think he demands the same hard work and effort from all his players and but when they start to play under their usual, he assumes a position I personally defend. With Ronaldo I remember clearly when he stayed a few matches under-performing (some matches not even to his standards, he played 2 or 3 matches horribly to any standards) and people questioned if he was going to be sacked like Sergio Ramos and Casillas had (especially because those two are considered gods to Marca and most of Madrid's press), and Mourinho refused to do it - within reason imo. The same happened with Wesley and Mourinho reacted the same way. Both examples prove that he knows some players are special and even if they don't perform as expected for a few weeks, he shouldn't move them to the bench because you never know when they will explode again and win you the match. Everyone else - except Ozil imo (Mourinho might think the same of him, whereas I don't) - that went through consecutive under-performances were sacked for a streak. In some cases long streaks others just a few matches.

In RM it was so clear that everyone in the team had defending responsibilities - even Karim and Pipita - but Ronaldo didn't have any and a lot of people called Wesley lazy while he was under Mourinho for a similar situation - although he demanded more from Wesley defensively than he demanded from Cris). So I think Mourinho recognizes especial players and may give them more freedom than he does to the rest of the team. I can see him doing the same with Hazard - depending on the formation he uses and he's more patient - others would call complacent - through their downs moments. I can see him doing this with Hazard as well, although maybe not at first - as you can't compare the moment Eden is in his career to the moments Wesley and Cris were when under Mourinho. Both were on their peaks while I feel like Eden is far from it (he's brilliant currently, but I think he'll be much better).

The 'sort of' in my first statement is that I agree that Mourinho is big in team performance, where he demands from every player to do their job and that normally includes teamwork and tackling for everyone (except this one guy because he doesn't need 11 players defending), but he has no problem with setting up teams that favor his best stars.

So I might be interested in reading whatever that research is. I think there are cases of both instances and there's a difference between a team where there's only one brilliant player and the rest is average and a team where there are a few stars, but one is the biggest of all. A star can't carry a bad team, but a special player can carry a team filled with stars (I've seen this so many times, it's what happens to most teams that have those special guys, because they end up leading the rest of the team to perform above their usual as well). I have no doubts Cris has been carrying RM - despite the stellar squad - for a while now and if he leaves, they're fucked. The same can't be said about Barcelona because when you have Iniesta and Xavi on their best, there's no way even Messi can carry a team...

I don't feel like Mata carried us. As I said in a previous post, Cech and Drogba were essential in the CL title and last season all players had ups and downs so I don't think one of them can be responsible for the team success in finishing 3rd and winning EL. It was more like a collective effort (for the good part) and a collective failure to capitalize (capitalize in keeping the start in EPL where we were 6 or 8 points ahead of ManUtd in the beginning and of course, at least going through the group stage of UCL).

[Stingray 9,441]

This one I read - sort of. I hate this expression 'The proof of the pudding is in the eating' so I admit I stopped reading the moment I read it

I'm picky like that, but I have a few pet peeves, and that expression is one of them

Well, that's nice. Skip the parts you don't like and then create your own story as you go along. Aah postmodernism at its finest!

I sort of disagree about Mou. The way you see him handling Ronaldo and Sneijder in both RM and Inter makes it obvious to me they were treated somewhat differently - but not to a fault. Which is why he was so successful in both. I think he doesn't favor any players because of their reputation over others, and I think he demands the same hard work and effort from all his players.

Actually Mou said that litterally in the video on his coaching philosophy.

In this part you seem to equate having a 'star' with giving him a preferential treatment. I agree on this definition. We should NOT have a star in term of special prtection, treatment ..... This was my point exactly. I do think you had a different deinition when agreeing with some on here before. This makes it diffult to debate actually if you change what you mean as you go along. Not a stab, mind you! Just an observation.

I don't feel like Mata carried us. As I said in a previous post, Cech and Drogba were essential in the CL title and last season all players had ups and downs so I don't think one of them can be responsible for the team success in finishing 3rd and winning EL. It was more like a collective effort (for the good part) and a collective failure to capitalize (capitalize in keeping the start in EPL where we were 6 or 8 points ahead of ManUtd in the beginning and of course, at least going through the group stage of UCL).

I take it here you see a star of a team as someone that carries the team? Ok. But that is a star in a fans perspective, not IN the team.

This is also where I very much disagree. Mata was crucial in our last campaign. This is not a personal opinion but a fact. He contributed most. In figures, stats, recognition, .... every thing. He was only surpassed a bit by Hazard at the end. Which is no suprise after such a long season on the one hand and Hazard picking up steam on the other hand.

[Barbara 15,149]

Well, that's nice. Skip the parts you don't like and then create your own story as you go along. Aah postmodernism at its finest!

Actually Mou said that litterally in the video on his coaching philosophy.

In this part you seem to equate having a 'star' with giving him a preferential treatment. I agree on this definition. We should NOT have a star in term of special prtection, treatment ..... This was my point exactly. I do think you had a different deinition when agreeing with some on here before. This makes it diffult to debate actually if you change what you mean as you go along. Not a stab, mind you! Just an observation.

I take it here you see a star of a team as someone that carries the team? Ok. But that is a star in a fans perspective, not IN the team.

This is also where I very much disagree. Mata was crucial in our last campaign. This is not a personal opinion but a fact. He contributed most. In figures, stats, recognition, .... every thing. He was only surpassed a bit by Hazard at the end. Which is no suprise after such a long season on the one hand and Hazard picking up steam on the other hand.

I honestly can't understand what you meant in the bold...

I meant that if a guy is special he will receive special treatment under Mourinho, as Ronaldo and Sneijder did... the most special in our team imo is Hazard and when he's ready (close to his peak and during his peak) I have no doubts he will have different treatment from Mourinho in the both instances I explained exhaustively in my post: defensive obligations and patience/complacency on bad performances' streaks. How does this go against whatever I said previously, I fail to understand, but I'd love for you to clarify. In another thread though as I think this is going off topic in a JM thread. Just realized that JM stands both for Mata and Mou

And please, do you expect Mourinho to give all his secrets in his vids about coaching?

as for the last part that does belong here:

Stats can help a lot, but they don't define everything in sports like football. There are guys with better stats than Cris - guys that are really bad, not only in comparison, but in general. Reason why I rarely use them. But even if I use them, you can't ignore Hazard's stats, so it means it was a collective effort - more from certain players than the rest, but still it wasn't one guy making us win the matches - especially because I consider last season more of a failure than a success for reasons I could also discuss in another thread.

That said Mata contributed a lot, I never took it away from him. I just said he didn't carry the team. Meaning that if we didn't have him we would have done terribly... I don't think that's the case. He was MIA in some matches - some of them important matches - as well as Eden has been in some, our defense in others, etc, etc.

This is the exaggeration that comes in that I roll my eyes at (the exaggeration, not you or your opinion). Just because I said I don't believe he carried the team, it doesn't mean he wasn't the biggest contributor.