🇪🇸 Juan Mata

[Tomo 21,751]

I think the point is whether or not Mata's inclusion in the team makes us a better or worse team.

What I personally like about Oscar is that he knits the team together well, linking defence and attack and also contributing at both ends too. When Mata was in the team at points last season, the gap between the midfield and the attack seemed massive at times and it also seemed to grow when we played Newcastle this season.

Yes he was fantastic over the past couple of years and had great stats, but did the freedom afforded him to amass those goals and assists actually make us weaker as a team?

What do you think you are doing putting the club before an individual? that is not the way forums operate.

[remains of the day 564]

im not undermining him and especially not his contributions in the last two years.

Well when you infer that Jose shouldn't "accommodate" (whatever that means) Mata a player who you claim was "only the best player in a team that finished 3rd and 6th" then yeah dude that kind of falls into the definition of undermining the contributions of a player so how about you save that 'face palm' for when it's actually needed?

But that alone shouldn't get him a free pass into the team regardless.

Oh you mean the free pass that Hazard and Oscar are seemingly awarded with despite putting in poor performances? Please, let's not pretend that Jose doesn't have his favourites who are continuously afforded with ample opportunities regardless of their form.

[Tomo 21,751]

Well when you infer that Jose shouldn't "accommodate" (whatever that means) Mata a player who you claim was "only the best player in a team that finished 3rd and 6th" then yeah dude that kind of falls into the definition of undermining the contributions of a player so about you save that 'face palm' for when it's actually needed?

Oh you mean the free pass that Hazard and Oscar are seemingly awarded with despite putting in poor performances? Please, let's not pretend that Jose doesn't have his favourites who are continuously afforded with ample opportunities regardless of their form.

I didn't say only tho? the point im trying to make is being the best player in a unbalanced and stagnant team and being the best player when we are looking to win the title is two different things.

Mata has been great these past two season's, but this Chelsea Jose wants to create is completely different to the 'cup team' he has played in before, high pressure and a mentality to win every week, not win 8-0 then lose to QPR not long after.

Oscar has played well up to a couple of games ago, Hazard hasn't been great but is still our chief creator of chances (2 a game isn't it?).

Plus Mata started 5 out of 7 games until the Newcastle game, the only two he didn't were Schalke and City (i wouldn't have started Mata against City even last season, that team have always been a thorn in his side, like what Arsenal were to Zola).

Can Mata adapt fully and be a part of the Chelsea machine that is consistently getting results? i have faith in him that he can, i love Mata, but i love the club more.

[Sheva. 5,373]

What I personally like about Oscar is that he knits the team together well, linking defence and attack and also contributing at both ends too. When Mata was in the team at points last season, the gap between the midfield and the attack seemed massive at times and it also seemed to grow when we played Newcastle this season.

Because Rafa played him pretty much as a 2nd striker. No other top CAM in the world has to deal with bullshit about defensive production like Mata has to, because they all play for top teams who give them license to do their business in attack, and have good players in the pivot to protect the defence.

Chelsea though consistently play a 35 year old in there. Totally Mata's fault.

[Tomo 21,751]

Because Rafa played him pretty much as a 2nd striker. No other top CAM in the world has to deal with bullshit about defensive production like Mata has to, because they all play for top teams who give them license to do their business in attack, and have good players in the pivot to protect the defence.

Chelsea though consistently play a 35 year old in there. Totally Mata's fault.

In teams that apply high pressure, every single player has to do there bit, even Messi in Barca does.

The pivot bit is a fair point, but even when that's sorted, Mata or whoever plays AM will have to do their bit in the pressing game.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Because Rafa played him pretty much as a 2nd striker. No other top CAM in the world has to deal with bullshit about defensive production like Mata has to, because they all play for top teams who give them license to do their business in attack, and have good players in the pivot to protect the defence.

Chelsea though consistently play a 35 year old in there. Totally Mata's fault.

Then Mata should most definitely join one of these top clubs who won't ask him to defend. Here at Chelsea there seems to be a desire for players to put a shift in defensively - the same actually happens at clubs like Dortmund, Barca and Bayern who look for their players to work as a unit....so where's that leave Mata? PSG?

Notice though I didn't just say it was about 'defensive production' but knitting the team together. I still think Oscar does that better than Mata and it's what I liked about him when we first signed him.

[Sheva. 5,373]

In teams that apply high pressure, every single player has to do there bit, even Messi in Barca does.

The pivot bit is a fair point, but even when that's sorted, Mata or whoever plays AM will have to do their bit in the pressing game.

Then Mata should most definitely join one of these top clubs who won't ask him to defend. Here at Chelsea there seems to be a desire for players to put a shift in defensively - the same actually happens at clubs like Dortmund, Barca and Bayern who look for their players to work as a unit....so where's that leave Mata? PSG?

Notice though I didn't just say it was about 'defensive production' but knitting the team together. I still think Oscar does that better than Mata and it's what I liked about him when we first signed him.

We haven't applied high pressure since the Bayern game, we sit deep and wait to counter, totally different.

Mata when he has played has tracked his man, and made tackles, interceptions etc, but it doesn't seem to be good enough for some, who want him to defend like a DM.

And for the point about "knitting the team together" what good is it exactly, if our attack has still been sub-par all season?

Back to my original point, a CAM should have the freedom to focus more in attack than defending. It's the case with Silva and Ozil if we look at just PL players at comparable teams. Doesn't mean they don't help out, but it's not a measuring point like it is here.

[Korea 734]

We haven't applied high pressure since the Bayern game, we sit deep and wait to counter, totally different.

Mata when he has played has tracked his man, and made tackles, interceptions etc, but it doesn't seem to be good enough for some, who want him to defend like a DM.

And for the point about "knitting the team together" what good is it if our attack has still been sub-par all season?

Our team attack last season was subpar as well.

MAta doesn't track his man well, whenever Mata plays with Oscar, Oscar always switches with Mata and takes care of his role on the wings for him.

If anyone that really improved in the defensive department its Hazard.

Then Mata should most definitely join one of these top clubs who won't ask him to defend. Here at Chelsea there seems to be a desire for players to put a shift in defensively - the same actually happens at clubs like Dortmund, Barca and Bayern who look for their players to work as a unit....so where's that leave Mata? PSG?

Notice though I didn't just say it was about 'defensive production' but knitting the team together. I still think Oscar does that better than Mata and it's what I liked about him when we first signed him.

PSG dont need Mata. They already have a better 10 than him there.

[Sheva. 5,373]

Our team attack last season was subpar as well.

MAta doesn't track his man well, whenever Mata plays with Oscar, Oscar always switches with Mata and takes care of his role on the wings for him.

If anyone that really improved in the defensive department its Hazard.

I would argue our attack has been much worse this season. And last season we played with no width which everyone all of sudden hates now.

We played some great football at the start under RDM, and eventually did for Rafa also. We did struggle sometimes, but not for a long stretch like has been the case so far.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Mata when he has played has tracked his man, and made tackles, interceptions etc, but it doesn't seem to be good enough for some, who want him to defend like a DM.

Has he?

[Korea 734]

I would argue our attack has been much worse this season. And last season we played with no width which everyone all of sudden hates now.

We played some great football at the start under RDM, and eventually did for Rafa also. We did struggle sometimes, but not for a long stretch like has been the case so far.

We struggle a lot. After a month or so, everyone knew what Chelsea was going to do and who was going to play.

Even the european games and the club world cup, Chelsea never played well.

We might of had some high scoring games, but in general, the offense was never as good as people make it up to be last season. This season, the offense has been stagnant as well, but I really dont think last season was much better.

On a side note, GUESS WHAT!

We dont hoof the ball as much this season as last season. I swear last season, Cech must of hoofed the ball up 30x a game.

[Gil 28]

We play a hideous brand of football and we rarely threaten the opposition if they're sat deep.

Majority of our goals come from counter attacks, individual errors and set pieces. I think it's unfair to pin the blame on the team's inability to defend on Mata. Like pretty much every big club out there you want your best player to defend the least so you tinker your system in a way which exposes said player the least.

Ronaldo, Messi, Suarez, Ibrahimovic, Van Persie, Gotze, Ribery etc aren't exactly workhorses are they?

Of course you want Mata to defend in the big games at the highest level but I don't see the need against the likes of WBA and Swansea. There's no structure, contunity or style to our football and it's tough to watch.

I doubt we'll ever see a performance like the 2nd half Man Utd away in the FA Cup this season.

I don't get the point of people blaming last season's failure in Europe last season on Mata's posiitoning either. The season before he was a crucial part to our only Champions League triumph.

[Sheva. 5,373]

Has he?

In 7 PL apps, he has 4 tackles. It's not great but i'm sure if you looked at his tackles from whole of last season when he played every game, he probably didn't even get more than 10.

No one instantly turns into a defensive guru, it's not something he's done most of his career, but if anyone has seen him for Chelsea or even Spain this season, he's trying to adapt.

We struggle a lot. After a month or so, everyone knew what Chelsea was going to do and who was going to play.

Even the european games and the club world cup, Chelsea never played well.

We might of had some high scoring games, but in general, the offense was never as good as people make it up to be last season. This season, the offense has been stagnant as well, but I really dont think last season was much better.

On a side note, GUESS WHAT!

We dont hoof the ball as much this season as last season. I swear last season, Cech must of hoofed the ball up 30x a game.

We scored goals and created chances, wasn't great free-flowing football but it was good enough to get 100+ goals.

I'd take that right now.

[The only place to be 11,313]

Ronaldo, Messi, Suarez, Ibrahimovic, Van Persie, Gotze, Ribery etc aren't exactly workhorses are they?

Um, a few are. Messi, Ronaldo and Suarez have all made more tackles and interceptions per game than Mata has this season. Messi works his bollocks off in matches, as does Suarez funnily enough. In fact I'd definitely call Suarez a 'workhorse' although that would be a long way down the line after cunt, tosser, prick, wanker, fuckface etc.

Heynckes was credited with turning both RIbery and Robben into much more rounded players (RIbery averages more tackles and interceptions per match than Mata does too) whlst Gotze averages roughly as many tackles and interceptions per game as Schweinsteiger.

In 7 PL apps, he has 4 tackles.

And how many interceptions?

That's unfair I know, because he doesn't have any. The difference is that this time you actually looked at the stats before saying that he has been making tackles and interceptions.

And he makes HALF the number of tackles on average per game that Ozil does.

But stats don't tell the whole story. At the end of the day we have to make our own conclusions based on what we see.

[Korea 734]

In 7 PL apps, he has 4 tackles. It's not great but i'm sure if you looked at his tackles from whole of last season when he played every game, he probably didn't even get more than 10.

No one instantly turns into a defensive guru, it's not something he's done most of his career, but if anyone has seen him for Chelsea or even Spain this season, he's trying to adapt.

We scored goals and created chances, wasn't great free-flowing football but it was good enough to get 100+ goals.

I'd take that right now.

Chelsea scored 3 goals in the month of November....... In 5 matches last season...

[Sheva. 5,373]

Um, a few are. Messi, Ronaldo and Suarez have all made more tackles and interceptions per game than Mata has this season. Messi works his bollocks off in matches, as does Suarez funnily enough. In fact I'd definitely call Suarez a 'workhorse' although that would be a long way down the line after cunt, tosser, prick, wanker, fuckface etc.

Heynckes was credited with turning both RIbery and Robben into much more rounded players (RIbery averages more tackles and interceptions per match than Mata does too) whlst Gotze averages roughly as many tackles and interceptions per game as Schweinsteiger.

And how many interceptions?

That's unfair I know, because he doesn't have any. The difference is that this time you actually looked at the stats before saying that he has been making tackles and interceptions.

And he makes HALF the number of tackles on average per game that Ozil does.

But stats don't tell the whole story. At the end of the day we have to make our own conclusions based on what we see.

Yeah i thought he would have an interception, i've seen him step across and block a pass recently.

And i love how we're back to talking about how many tackles a CAM makes, next thing we will only be looking for strikers who can defend also.

[Sheva. 5,373]

Chelsea scored 3 goals in the month of November....... In 5 matches last season...

Away at Swansea, at home to Liverpool, away at WBA, and home to Man city and Fulham.

Not exactly easy games, not to mention we for some reason struggle in that month.

[Korea 734]

Away at Swansea, at home to Liverpool, away at WBA, and home to Man city and Fulham.

Not exactly easy games, not to mention we for some reason struggle in that month.

Liverpool sucked ass at that time. They won 2 games prior to the Chelsea game.

West Brom didnt have Lukaku.

Fulham........

[Sheva. 5,373]

Liverpool sucked ass at that time. They won 2 games prior to the Chelsea game.

West Brom didnt have Lukaku.

Fulham........

In the Liverpool game we had chances to finish them off, didn't take them and we were punished.

Against West brom, we had sooo many chances in the 2nd half it was ridiculous, again bad finishing cost us.

Fulham was just a boring game where nothing happened, not uncommon over the course of a season.

The theme of last season as a whole was bad finishing, because we did create opportunities most of the time, this season though it's no chances and wait for counter.

[lionsden 4,689]

I think the point is whether or not Mata's inclusion in the team makes us a better or worse team.

What I personally like about Oscar is that he knits the team together well, linking defence and attack and also contributing at both ends too. When Mata was in the team at points last season, the gap between the midfield and the attack seemed massive at times and it also seemed to grow when we played Newcastle this season.

Yes he was fantastic over the past couple of years and had great stats, but did the freedom afforded him to amass those goals and assists actually make us weaker as a team?

That's the job of central midfielders. what a team essentially requires from its playmaker (AM) is chance creation and assisting goals.

he shouldn't get any credit for doing secondary task if he fails miserably in his primary duty and objective as an AM and main playmaker of the team. I don't even think he's assisted any goal at all in the league this season and that speaks volume.