Romelu Lukaku

[Superblue 6,370]

32 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

My version of the answer is easier to say but more complicated to assess than a straightforward count of goals and assists. Rom simply needs to make us a better side.

Even this could be subjective though for different people.

Is better side a higher league position or playing better quality, more pleasing on the eye football? Because there's every chance that his inclusion improves one but worsens the other.

For me, I've never cared less about the quality of the football so long as we win. If anything sometimes the "backs to the wall", defending for our lives and nick a goal are the most satisfying.

If Lukaku, whether it's through his goals, assists, or just his general presence in the team gets more out of the likes of Werner, Pulisic and Havertz, gives us a greater chance of winning the league and other competitions then I believe his purchase and inclusion will be merited.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,892]

3 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Even this could be subjective though for different people.

Is better side a higher league position or playing better quality, more pleasing on the eye football? Because there's every chance that his inclusion improves one but worsens the other.

For me, I've never cared less about the quality of the football so long as we win. If anything sometimes the "backs to the wall", defending for our lives and nick a goal are the most satisfying.

If Lukaku, whether it's through his goals, assists, or just his general presence in the team gets more out of the likes of Werner, Pulisic and Havertz, gives us a greater chance of winning the league and other competitions then I believe his purchase and inclusion will be merited.

Yes, you've fleshed out what I meant when I said the assessment is more complicated if becoming a 'better' team is the yardstick. My biggest, maybe only, disagreement with what you say here is the bit about not caring if the football is of 'quality' or not.

When I played winning was all that mattered but when I watch professional football I need more. I've walked out of the Bridge more times than I can count utterly frustrated after a win. Watching the ball bounce off people's shins never makes me feel good. By the way, let's not doubt that there is also quality in defending well. It's not about whether you aim to control the game by dominating possession or by conceding it. Whatever the side chooses to do what counts is whether it does it well. 

[Superblue 6,370]

10 minutes ago, OhForAGreavsie said:

Yes, you've fleshed out what I meant when I said the assessment is more complicated if becoming a 'better' team is the yardstick. My biggest, maybe only, disagreement with what you say here is the bit about not caring if the football is of 'quality' or not.

When I played winning was all that mattered but when I watch professional football I need more. I've walked out of the Bridge more times than I can count utterly frustrated after a win. Watching the ball bounce off people's shins never makes me feel good. By the way, let's not doubt that there is also quality in defending well. It's not about whether you aim to control the game by dominating possession or by conceding it. Whatever the side chooses to do what counts is whether it does it well. 

I agree to an extent with this - if it was week after week, it can become a little demoralising, especially if it feels there is no end in sight. I think with the profile of players we have we're not suddenly going to play turgid football at every given opportunity. There will be some games where the football clicks and is of the highest quality, but there will be some games where we are poor. Every team has games like this. In this instance you just have to gut it out and win those games.

Going back to Lukaku, I don't think his inclusion is going to mean our football becomes a hard watch. I don't see us suddenly banging long balls up to him at will for example. But on the same token he isn't as technically sound as a Havertz and there may not be as much fluidity between the front players. But if his presence spearheading the attack makes it more effective then he's doing his job in the team.

[Jype 6,398]

13 hours ago, Warning_Hazard said:

Heres a question:

What will be required of him for people class a him/the tranfer a success?...

I couldn't give less fucks about how many goals he scores on a personal level, but the team need to play well with Lukaku in it.

I've seen people claim he needs to score 25+ league goals every year to be considered a success, but that's a very unrealistic expectation to put on any player. Aguero did it only once in his 10 year City career, Salah has done it once in his career across all clubs and leagues, Kane has done slightly better but still less than half his seasons are 25+ in the PL etc.

Diego Costa for example reached a maximum of 20 league goals a season for us, yet he was a massive player for us and improved the team immensely to win two league titles in three years. If Lukaku scores 20 in the league but the team aren't playing well I wouldn't consider him a success even though on paper he'd have matched Costa's performance in the team. 

To be labeled a success Lukaku needs to develop good chemistry with the players around him and help them score more goals as well, either by providing the final pass or just by making movements that bind defenders to mark him and thus creating space for others to score. At Inter he had that chemistry with Lautaro Martinez so I don't see how he couldn't have it with Werner, Havertz as well.

[Warning_Hazard 156]

57 minutes ago, Jype said:

I couldn't give less fucks about how many goals he scores on a personal level, but the team need to play well with Lukaku in it.

I've seen people claim he needs to score 25+ league goals every year to be considered a success, but that's a very unrealistic expectation to put on any player. Aguero did it only once in his 10 year City career, Salah has done it once in his career across all clubs and leagues, Kane has done slightly better but still less than half his seasons are 25+ in the PL etc.

Diego Costa for example reached a maximum of 20 league goals a season for us, yet he was a massive player for us and improved the team immensely to win two league titles in three years. If Lukaku scores 20 in the league but the team aren't playing well I wouldn't consider him a success even though on paper he'd have matched Costa's performance in the team. 

To be labeled a success Lukaku needs to develop good chemistry with the players around him and help them score more goals as well, either by providing the final pass or just by making movements that bind defenders to mark him and thus creating space for others to score. At Inter he had that chemistry with Lautaro Martinez so I don't see how he couldn't have it with Werner, Havertz as well.

So £97M is good value for a striker who simply improves the squad and doesnt even need to be a prolific goal scorer?

I'm going to go splash some cold water on my face because people have lost their minds!

Edited August 10, 2021 by Warning_Hazard

[Superblue 6,370]

10 minutes ago, Warning_Hazard said:

So £97M is good value for a striker who simply improves the squad and doesnt even need to be a prolific goal scorer?

I'm going to go splash some cold water on my face because people have lost their minds!

Yes if his inclusion brings out more in others too.

For example if Lukaku 'only' scored 15-20 goals but his inclusion improved the output of the likes of Werner and Havertz so they were both getting 10-15 goals then it is overall better than Lukaku scoring more than 20 but others only managing around 5 again.

[Tomo 21,733]

7 minutes ago, Warning_Hazard said:

So £97M is good value for a striker who simply improves the squad and doesnt even need to be a prolific goal scorer?

I'm going to go splash some cold water on my face because people have lost their minds!

Maybe i'm old fashioned but I've always believed team chemistry trumps personal stats.

If he (all comps) scores 30 but it is pretty clear his presence is holding us back despite that (ala Mario Gomes at Bayern) and we finished 3rd or worse then I'll be unhappy. That's actually my main worry as I was a big fan of our fluidity with Kai in that position.

If on the other hand he scores 15 but we piss the league and make a big go at our UCL defense, then who cares?

That's why I don't really take part in the Werner bashing outside of banter, because despite the frustrations infront of goal, both the stats and the eyes quite clearly show we're a much better team with him in it.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,892]

14 hours ago, Superblue_1986 said:

I agree to an extent with this - if it was week after week, it can become a little demoralising, especially if it feels there is no end in sight. I think with the profile of players we have we're not suddenly going to play turgid football at every given opportunity. There will be some games where the football clicks and is of the highest quality, but there will be some games where we are poor. Every team has games like this. In this instance you just have to gut it out and win those games.

Going back to Lukaku, I don't think his inclusion is going to mean our football becomes a hard watch. I don't see us suddenly banging long balls up to him at will for example. But on the same token he isn't as technically sound as a Havertz and there may not be as much fluidity between the front players. But if his presence spearheading the attack makes it more effective then he's doing his job in the team.

We are basically in full agreement I think. I would though just restate I said my judgement of Rom's impact will be if he makes us a better team, not if we play 'better football'. As you pointed out earlier this is problematic because good football means different things to different people. I should have worded my point better. 🙂

The word I often use is effective. Effective football is beautiful football. The best performance I've seen in the last decade was Bayern's demolition of our side en route to winning the 2020 CL. There were no jinky dribbles, no extravagant passes no flicks or tricks. Just good movement to give the man in possession options with good decision making and simple execution from that man. Simplicity is beauty. I loved it. If Chelsea give me that on a regular basis I will be the happiest football fan on Earth.

Edited August 11, 2021 by OhForAGreavsie

[Jype 6,398]

7 minutes ago, Warning_Hazard said:

So £97M is good value for a striker who simply improves the squad and doesnt even need to be a prolific goal scorer?

That's not what I said at all. Learn to read for fucks sake.

I said Lukaku can be considered a failure even if he scores a lot on a personal level, if the team doesn't improve with him in it. Of course he still needs to be a prolific goal scorer but he also needs to develop good chemistry with the other attackers in the team to be deemed a success and that's why I think it's stupid to just put a label on him and say he needs to score an X amount of goals because even if he does, the transfer can still be either good or bad depending on the other factors.

He scored a decent amount of goals at Utd but never developed that chemistry with Rashford, Pogba, Martial etc. and that's why he's widely considered to have been a failure over there. That lack of chemistry might not even be fully his own fault because Mourinho was also clueless on how to set up a functioning attacking unit, but it is what it is. 

[OhForAGreavsie 5,892]

13 hours ago, Warning_Hazard said:

So £97M is good value for a striker who simply improves the squad and doesnt even need to be a prolific goal scorer?

I'm going to go splash some cold water on my face because people have lost their minds!

Take another look at what @Jype said in the post to which you replied here. I'm sure you'll find more you can agree with than you did at first. For my part, I think every word he typed was spot on.

Edited August 11, 2021 by OhForAGreavsie

[Magic Lamps 11,653]

When we talk about goal tallies it is always about the context. no one cares if he scores no 4 or 5 in a thrashing of Norwich e.g. which he used to do in his Everton days. But if he scores just 15 league goals but all are last minute match winners that is probably the title right there . 

[Fulham Broadway 16,838]

TT will get the best out of him, he will also be a magnet for defenders freeing up chances for others

[laura90 556]

His signing to me shows a clear intention, determination even desperation to compete and win the title from our board. Desperation because we are in hurry, we simply  can't wait. Maybe because City and Liverpool squads are getting older? That's why we were after Haaland, who was out of reach obviously, galactico in the making. We were ready to double his fee in order to get him this year.  Had we succeed , title would have been a must. This season or the next. 

The same applies for Lukaku. We didn't spend 115 mil on 28 years old, taking huge risk by not being able to offload him if things turn sour, to just keep us in the fourth or third place. Closing the gap to City and win title this season or the next is a must, for him and for Tuchel. If we don't manage to win title or CL with him in the next two years, he will be a flop. Just like Havertz would have been too hadn't he scored that GOAL against City.

How he is gonna achieve it matters very little. He may score 16 goals ( at least one more than Tammy in 2019/2020 season), and enable Havertz, Pulisic, Ziyech to score more, by occupying defenders and he is success. As long as he wins a trophy he is brought and got lucrative contract to win. 

 

 

[Warning_Hazard 156]

1 hour ago, Jype said:

That's not what I said at all. Learn to read for fucks sake.

I said Lukaku can be considered a failure even if he scores a lot on a personal level, if the team doesn't improve with him in it. Of course he still needs to be a prolific goal scorer but he also needs to develop good chemistry with the other attackers in the team to be deemed a success and that's why I think it's stupid to just put a label on him and say he needs to score an X amount of goals because even if he does, the transfer can still be either good or bad depending on the other factors.

He scored a decent amount of goals at Utd but never developed that chemistry with Rashford, Pogba, Martial etc. and that's why he's widely considered to have been a failure over there. That lack of chemistry might not even be fully his own fault because Mourinho was also clueless on how to set up a functioning attacking unit, but it is what it is. 

Blah blah blah!!

Lukaku is option B to haaland, Bayern wouldnt entertain haaland idea if hes not gettable and has dodgy agents!

End of the day the club has had an awful time with strikers so forgive me for being the skeptic!

I agree with most of what youve said but again its all based on speculation, Lukaku also doesnt and hasnt come across as a team player, he often lacks motivation because hes busy of dreaming about driving his bently around citys with 10 chicks squeezed in!!!

 

 

[Warning_Hazard 156]

26 minutes ago, laura90 said:

His signing to me shows a clear intention, determination even desperation to compete and win the title from our board. Desperation because we are in hurry, we simply  can't wait. Maybe because City and Liverpool squads are getting older? That's why we were after Haaland, who was out of reach obviously, galactico in the making. We were ready to double his fee in order to get him this year.  Had we succeed , title would have been a must. This season or the next. 

The same applies for Lukaku. We didn't spend 115 mil on 28 years old, taking huge risk by not being able to offload him if things turn sour, to just keep us in the fourth or third place. Closing the gap to City and win title this season or the next is a must, for him and for Tuchel. If we don't manage to win title or CL with him in the next two years, he will be a flop. Just like Havertz would have been too hadn't he scored that GOAL against City.

How he is gonna achieve it matters very little. He may score 16 goals ( at least one more than Tammy in 2019/2020 season), and enable Havertz, Pulisic, Ziyech to score more, by occupying defenders and he is success. As long as he wins a trophy he is brought and got lucrative contract to win. 

 

 

One has to wonder why they didnt go all out for haaland

So many posters are banking on lukaku, Oh what a sad place TC will be if it goes pear shaped

Reputations will be destroyed!

On the other hand if he does work out, Hes proved the doubters wrong and we will all be happy...ish!

[Jype 6,398]

5 minutes ago, Warning_Hazard said:

So many posters are banking on lukaku, Oh what a sad place TC will be if it goes pear shaped

Reputations will be destroyed!

On the other hand if he does work out, Hes proved the doubters wrong and we will all be happy...ish!

Then again, if he does succeed your 'reputation' will be 'destroyed' as well and you should expect to be called out for it.

For people like you it's basically a win-win. Either he fails and you can keep moaning forever and say 'I told you so' or he's a huge success and you can quietly hop on the bandwagon and pretend you always rated him. Or somewhere in the middle ground, like we've seen with many players in the past: when they have a good game or just generally in good form the topics go quiet for ages, but the minute they put a foot wrong the moaners come out of hiding.

[ZAPHOD2319 4,477]

14 hours ago, Mário César said:

Can someone give me the image that shows the sales that we made that pay lukaku? tks

I do not have an image but here are the numbers.

Moses £4.5m
Giroud £1.5m
Tomori £26m
Guehi £18m
Bate £1.5m
Simeu £1.5m
Livramento £5m
Ugbo £5m (TBC)
Abraham £34m (TBC)

Total £97m + Loan Fees

Lukaku fee £97.5m

[Nero 1,838]