JDY

Interesting point about us and Arsenal playing United. Should United make it to the UCL Semi Final, Arsenal's game at home to them would be in-between the two legs, and we go to Old Trafford just after the 2nd leg.

That was hilarious. Even the announcer (Neil?) was laughing. Took the lad 3 or 4 punts to get it in.

Not sure about the suit as a whole but Rafa could give you a hand with the tie

Anyone know how he played today?

Just got back from the game. First things first, I was surprised and pleased that the reaction to Rafa wasn't THAT bad. The atmosphere was much better than previous weeks, and it looked like it helped. Thought we played very well the entire first half and first 20 of the 2nd. Some very neat interchange between the front 4, it just shows having a forward who can link the play well helps enormously. A bit nervous towards the end, and Cech made some great saves. Would be harsh of me to pick one player out in particular, thought they all did well.

He's not an attacking midfielder or winger. He's a centre forward who is very quick, direct and versatile with his finishing.

That's not what I was getting at. The question was if Ba fails would it change my opinion on Torres. By fails I'm assuming that means he hasn't scored enough. Even when Ba or the strikers before Torres haven't scored, they have still brought something to the team through their link up play. Torres hasn't, so it wouldn't change my opinion.

No, it's not about Torres not scoring. His all round game is terrible.

Let's be honest here, Rafa is only here to do well for himself. Now that may sound selfish but him doing well means that we as a club are doing well. So far it has backfired spectacularly, and the majority of the fans on his back 24/7 isn't helping. Those who hate him already have their wish with him leaving at the end of the season, so why not deal with the situation at hand and get behind the team until the end of the season. You don't have to acknowledge Rafa or support him, just the team. His comments after the match were 100% spot on, although (looking at this thread) it has made people hate him even more. I couldn't care less about Benitez, but I'm not going to waste my time with petty campaigns or negative chanting. Get over it.

I'm talking about at the top level, both players are inexperienced.

The whole idea that Bertrand is far more experienced than Shaw is simply not true. Aged 23, Bertrand has made 16 starting appearances in the Premier League. Aged 17, Shaw has made 15 starting appearances in the Premier League. The fact that Shaw has made the step from youth standard football to first team football in one of the toughest league's in the world is impressive. The truth is that both are inexperienced players, but at the moment Shaw just looks the better and more promising player.

It's strange because we bought a lot of attacking quality in the summer, without any idea of how to deploy them. Last years triumphs papered over some major cracks, cracks that despite our summer spending, we did not solve. We overbought in the wrong areas (Probably influenced by Roman's desire to play attractive football), forgetting that you need to have a solid platform for these attacking players to flourish. Romeu is a tough one to call at this moment. He has the potential to be a great DM, but there are two question marks. 1. We don't know how far this injury will set him back in his development and 2. Is he in for the long haul or is his mind set on playing somewhere else once he develops? I don't like the idea of bringing through a player only for him to want out, we aren't Arsenal.

Should be tasty, although I can see Bayern running riot.

He wasn't excellent in the pivot IMO, but if you think he was then ok. He was certainly better than he's been this season but if you contrast the style of play then and now it's very different, which makes discussing last season completely irrelevant. Cahill was excellent towards the end of last season as a sweeper, he thrived on defending deep, tackling and clearing everything in sight. This season we have tried to play in an expansive, open style and it worked in the early part of the season until we got found out. Cahill is a box defender, and not much more. You can say all you like about Lampard, he is not a defensive midfielder and he never will be a good one. He doesn't track runners, his positioning is bad, and he doesn't make enough tackles or interceptions to be a pivot player. I can't say if he's a good tackler or not because he doesn't attempt many. And I said if we persist with the 4-2-3-1, there will be question marks about Mikel in the pivot. He does a decent job, but isn't completely suited to the role as I've said. If we change back to 4-3-3 then he should play no question.

One of the main reasons for last years triumphs was luck and the way the team was set up. Mikel was our best player in Munich. Why? Because he was deployed so deep that he was almost playing the same role he does in a 4-3-3. In the 4-2-3-1 you have to have two competent ball winners, neither Mikel or Lampard are this. Mikel is an excellent positional player, but doesn't have the domineering presence to be great in the pivot. Lampard's defensive contribution is non-existent, the only reason he hasn't been scapegoated but Mikel has is because he's a club legend and scores a lot of goals. Lars Bender/Etienne Capoue/Maxime Gonalons/Sebastian Rode/Ignacio Camacho/Morgan Schneiderlin would all be good options to displace both, or play alongside Mikel in the pivot. Lampard is the main problem here, whether or not people don't like to admit it.

In a 4-3-3 where he's more suited.

Mikel is a decent player but he's overrated as he's the only viable option we have for the pivot at the moment. It's questionable whether he is good enough to be a regular starter for a team aiming to challenge on all fronts. The general consensus is that Mikel is an undervalued part of the team, and I would agree to an extent. But his flaws outweigh his strengths for me, especially if we persist with the 4-2-3-1 which requires a lot more pressing than Mikel is capable of. We could certainly get better than Mikel, and there are a number of players out there who would significantly improve our pivot.

Isn't he co-owned by Inter and Udinese? Not sure about the ruling in these instances. Don't think it would be worthwhile anyway.

Agreed. I have no qualms with him being 3rd choice, but if we really want to start challenging he shouldn't be first choice.

It's not just this one loss, it's over the whole season. I'm not talking about Aguero going past him, he can do that to anyone. But Cahill is constantly caught out of position, yet it goes under the radar most of the time. Stick any forward with decent movement against him and they will have a field day. In a deep line with no space in behind he is great, because he's a gritty defender. The difference between him JT is that Terry can read the game, Cahill can't. If you thought he was good today then that really shows how shocking we were.

It's painful watching him at the back at times. Somehow he gets praised for last ditch tackles when it is him being out of position that leads to the chance. Granted our whole backline has been pretty shocking recently, but Cahill is the worst of the lot and gets the least stick. Bad defender, shame the odd goal overshadows that for some.

Torres + cash may make sense from a Chelsea point of view, but it would make no sense for them. Why would a club with such crippling debt accept a reduced transfer fee for their most prized asset, in exchange for a player who has shown every sign that he is way past his best, and would command wages that Atletico would be stupid to accept going forward. Not to mention that it looks like Atletico have got Leo from Rayo who has a release clause of just 8m euros, and has the upside of a world class forward if he continues at the rate he's going

I thought he hit the post directly from that corner at first. Great game btw

Lovely pass and direct running