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Jason

14. Tiemoue Bakayoko

Started by Jason,

479 posts in this topic
9 hours ago, Blue-in-me-Veins said:

But one performance doesn't detract from his horrow shows against Palace, Watford, Roma (x2). 

Well, duh! It's just like one performance/win doesn't take away from our recent unconvincing performances/results.

9 hours ago, Blue-in-me-Veins said:

I see very specific qualities Bakayoko possesses and Im not a fan of them because we already have a player in Kante who uses those same skills at a much higher level.

Bakayoko wants to play with a holding CM like Matic and Fabinho, but Kante is already like that. 

So the only way both can play is if Kante is reduced to a holding DM role (which limits Kante) or both play in a double pivot, but that means we forego having a DLP to help in build-up and maintain possession.

How does Bakayoko want to play like Kante? The former appears to operate best as a B2B midfielder while the latter works best as a defensive midfielder and in a system like Conte's, Kante does get some freedom to bomb forward.

Some of you lot here really have no patience. Had Bakayoko come from our academy, people would be pleading patience for him. But because we bought him from elsewhere, people are quick to jump on his back. At least give him some time and chance to improve. If he's still the same like now in 1-2 years' time, then fine.

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8 hours ago, Jason said:

Isn't that a tad too simplistic to look at things? Some players work better in a certain system where it can allow them to shine. Remember all the damage that Lampard or even Essien did in a 3-man midfield? They wouldn't even have done half of it had we asked to play in a 2-man midfield because it would restrict their freedom. Bakayoko isn't the first to work best in a certain system and he won't be the last either.

Yes, they work sometimes better in different systems. Like Hazard is better in 3-4-3 with active full/wing backs, than in 4-3-3 with more passive fullbacks. That's maybe the best example. But most of the time it's really like I said, especially in our cases - players are better with more help. Defensive midfielder or defensively oriented box to box (like Baka I guess is) should work the same in 2 or 3 man midfield, if he is really good.

EDIT: Difference between Hazard and Bakayoko case - Hazard in 4-3-3 with more passive fullback (lets say non-overlapping Azpi like under Mourinho) is still very good player. In 3-4-3 he is maybe excellent. Bakayoko in 3-5-2 is good-ish player. Bakayoko in 3-4-3 is really poor. Also, Essien would be perfect in 2-man midfield. Lampard is a case for himself, he is too good of a goalscorer to play in 2-man midfield, but he still wouldn't be average in 2-man, he would be good/very good player.

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It says a lot that little Kante is compared with Pogba in a way Bakayoko could never get a sniff; this despite Bakayoko's supposedly positive abilities being the exact same abilities Pogba is lauded for. 

Baka & Pogba are the same profile of player. And I'm sure we'd trade Bakayoko for Pogba in a heartbeat - because he's twice the player - despite himself only being half as good as the media make him out to be.

 

Which would mean, if my hyperbole maths is correct, Bakayoko's potentially quarter the player that the general population believe Pogba to be

:ph34r:

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2 hours ago, El P. said:

Yes, they work sometimes better in different systems. Like Hazard is better in 3-4-3 with active full/wing backs, than in 4-3-3 with more passive fullbacks. That's maybe the best example. But most of the time it's really like I said, especially in our cases - players are better with more help. Defensive midfielder or defensively oriented box to box (like Baka I guess is) should work the same in 2 or 3 man midfield, if he is really good.

EDIT: Difference between Hazard and Bakayoko case - Hazard in 4-3-3 with more passive fullback (lets say non-overlapping Azpi like under Mourinho) is still very good player. In 3-4-3 he is maybe excellent. Bakayoko in 3-5-2 is good-ish player. Bakayoko in 3-4-3 is really poor. Also, Essien would be perfect in 2-man midfield. Lampard is a case for himself, he is too good of a goalscorer to play in 2-man midfield, but he still wouldn't be average in 2-man, he would be good/very good player.

You are tying to make them sound like different issues but ultimately, they are the same. Pair Hazard with a passive FB/WB, put Lampard/Bakayoko in a 2-man midfield and they all become far less effective than if we play Hazard with an attacking FB/WB or Lampard/Bakayoko in a 3-man midfield. To be honest, I'm not sure why you are using the argument 'oh because he can work only in one system, it means he's not a good player'. Lots of good players out there work best when they are used in a certain system and they become far less effective when used in one that doesn't suit them. Bakayoko isn't any different. And isn't part of football about finding the right system for the player(s) so that it can bring the best out of him(them)? I agree that he hasn't been all that great but it's also unfair not to give him some time before truly passing judgment on him. It's been said many times - he joined us without playing any part in pre-season, had to be forced back earlier because we had selection issues back in August, he's settling into a new country, new league, new team and a team that hasn't always been consistent all season etc. Give him time for heaven's sake.

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1 minute ago, Jason said:

You are tying to make them sound like different issues but ultimately, they are the same. Pair Hazard with a passive FB/WB, put Lampard/Bakayoko in a 2-man midfield and they all become far less effective than if we play Hazard with an attacking FB/WB or Lampard/Bakayoko in a 3-man midfield. To be honest, I'm not sure why you are using the argument 'oh because he can work only in one system, it means he's not a good player'. Lots of good players out there work best when they are used in a certain system and they become far less effective when used in one that doesn't suit them. Bakayoko isn't any different. And isn't part of football about finding the right system for the player(s) so that it can bring the best out of him(them)? I agree that he hasn't been all that great but it's also unfair not to give him some time before truly passing judgment on him. It's been said many times - he joined us without playing any part in pre-season, had to be forced back earlier because we had selection issues back in August, he's settling into a new country, new league, new team and a team that hasn't always been consistent all season etc. Give him time for heaven's sake.

Give him time? I'm analyzing what HE IS NOW. What he will/could be is irrelevant in my posts, and it was clear from beginning. We could start entirely new topic about that what he could be. Or I don't have right to analyse for which player we payed decent price and gave some of our players exit ticket?

It's VERY different from player to player. Hazard with passive full-back was PLAYER OF THE SEASON, for Christ's sake. It's different because Lampard and Hazard are in some systems working very good, and in some excellent. Because they are top players. Bakayoko of these days is very different, if he looks like player less on the field with no 2 friends in midfield to help him.

And comparing Lampard in 2-man midfield with Bakayoko in 2-man midfield is really cheap, sorry. Lampard is one of the best goal-scoring midfielders in HISTORY of football. His passes were masterpieces. Of course he won't be that effective with less freedom. On the other side Bakayoko is more defensively minded, has good dribbling/run here and there, hence, he should be good in midfield 2.

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1 minute ago, El P. said:

Give him time? I'm analyzing what HE IS NOW. What he will/could be is irrelevant in my posts, and it was clear from beginning. We could start entirely new topic about that what he could be. Or I don't have right to analyse for which player we payed decent price and gave some of our players exit ticket?

You are but there are factors as to why he hasn't done well so far, which you have been keen to insist.

2 minutes ago, El P. said:

It's VERY different from player to player. Hazard with passive full-back was PLAYER OF THE SEASON, for Christ's sake. It's different because Lampard and Hazard are in some systems working very good, and in some excellent. Because they are top players. Bakayoko of these days is very different, if he looks like player less on the field with no 2 friends in midfield to help him.

Lampard mostly did his best work in a 3-man midfield throughout his career. I remember Ancelotti played him at the top of his midfield diamond formation and it didn't work out well and he had to change back to 4-3-3 later.

3 minutes ago, El P. said:

And comparing Lampard in 2-man midfield with Bakayoko in 2-man midfield is really cheap, sorry. Lampard is one of the best goal-scoring midfielders in HISTORY of football. His passes were masterpieces. Of course he won't be that effective with less freedom.

First you said it's cheap to compare Bakayoko and Lampard and then you acknowledged the point I was trying to make. :carlo: I never made any comparison about the type of players they are/were but merely, using them as examples how they work best in a certain system.

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21 minutes ago, Jason said:

You are but there are factors as to why he hasn't done well so far, which you have been keen to insist.

Lampard mostly did his best work in a 3-man midfield throughout his career. I remember Ancelotti played him at the top of his midfield diamond formation and it didn't work out well and he had to change back to 4-3-3 later.

First you said it's cheap to compare Bakayoko and Lampard and then you acknowledged the point I was trying to make. :carlo: I never made any comparison about the type of players they are/were but merely, using them as examples how they work best in a certain system.

Top of midfield diamond has nothing to do with "help" of other players. Top of midfield diamond usually is for players like Ozil, Isco, Zola etc. Those are not "midfielders", per se. Or is the #10/Second-striker and CM the same to you?

I acknowledged, yes, because you didn't seem to consider types of players playing, of course.

Same is with our defense - Luiz needs two friends, if he has brain-fart and tactical fail. Also is not good in one-on-ones. Secondary - because he is solid playmaker., so he could roam a bit and have some insurance at the back. Azpi needs two tall friends, he is short. And Cahill... he just needs friends. A lot of them. No need to explain. Same could be said about Fabregas.

Sometimes with specific players you play specific tactic to focus on their strengths more than to cover their weaknesses, if there are any. Sometimes you play specific tactics just to hide some player's weaknesses and just hoping that their strengths could produce something.

Bakayoko-type of player should be great for 2 man midfield, something like Dembele of Spurs. He just doesn't cut it, yet.

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12 minutes ago, El P. said:

Top of midfield diamond has nothing to do with "help" of other players. Top of midfield diamond usually is for players like Ozil, Isco, Zola etc. Those are not "midfielders", per se. Or is the #10/Second-striker and CM the same to you?

I acknowledged, yes, because you didn't seem to consider types of players playing, of course.

I did and help or not, it's still important to play players in position to maximize their output.

13 minutes ago, El P. said:

Same is with our defense - Luiz needs two friends, if he has brain-fart and tactical fail. Also is not good in one-on-ones. Secondary - because he is solid playmaker., so he could roam a bit and have some insurance at the back. Azpi needs two tall friends, he is short. And Cahill... he just needs friends. A lot of them. No need to explain. Same could be said about Fabregas.

Sometimes with specific players you play specific tactic to focus on their strengths more than to cover their weaknesses, if there are any. Sometimes you play specific tactics just to hide some player's weaknesses and just hoping that their strengths could produce something.

Which team in the world has perfect players with no weaknesses? It's all about finding a system that maximizes the players' talent and hide their weaknesses as much as possible, if not all.

37 minutes ago, El P. said:

Bakayoko-type of player should be great for 2 man midfield, something like Dembele of Spurs. He just doesn't cut it, yet.

Has Bakayoko played in a 2-man midfield with Kante? Should work better than the common combo Bakayoko-Fabregas this season.

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Hasn't had the greatest start to his Chelsea career, but you can tell greatness is there. I think his potential is enormous. Ability to carry the ball, good technique, proactive defending, etc. He can be sloppy at times, but none of his flaws seem like a long term problem. He has potential to be as good as Dembele for Tottenham, but even better because of his ability to get into goal-scoring positions.

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He’s been playing with an injury still all this time. Hope Drinkwater gets fit soon so he can have a better managed minutes off the pitch. 

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11 minutes ago, Leif said:

Ian Wright, live on TV - 'He (Ruben)'s better than Bakayoko.' :cig:

I too think he is. But do you think RLC can really play in midfield two? I'm still skeptical about that... 

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2 minutes ago, El P. said:

I too think he is. But do you think RLC can really play in midfield two? I'm still skeptical about that... 

I don't think either of them can for the level we want to play. If they were playing in the French league, going deep into competitions but ultimately not winning trophies, then I think they'd be 'workable' in a midfield 2. 

This just gives us more incentive to stick with this 5-3-2, or revert to a 4-3-3 /4-2-3-1:wub:

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Just now, Leif said:

I don't think either of them can for the level we want to play. If they were playing in the French league, going deep into competitions but ultimately not winning trophies, then I think they'd be 'workable' in a midfield 2. 

This just gives us more incentive to stick with this 5-3-2, or revert to a 4-3-3 /4-2-3-1:wub:

Yeah, RLC would thrive in 3-5-2, for sure. He is actually one really special CAM, with all those passing/dribbling qualities, but also tall and strong.

Him and Bakayoko could end up playing together. :D

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16 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Only Ian Wright would compare an attacking midfielder to a more defensive minded box to box midfielder. What a crock of shit.

It’s clear that Baka is a bit more balanced, where as Ruben is more offensive minded but Ian Wright being Ian Wright compares two totally different players or so I’d say. Honestly I think he’s similar to a Ross Barkley off all people, a lot of folk have said Dele Alli but I don’t see the comparison, Alli is more of a goal scorer than a creator, somebody like Thomas Muller, always finds space in and around the box, where as Ruben is not.

If Ruben were to play instead of anybody in our 3 man MF it would be Cesc imo but I don’t think he is the right fit if we want a more controlling midfielder in there though. I think Ruben will play off the front in a 3 although he’ll need to improve his goals and assists output because that will be what he’d be judged on, not how many Cruyff turns, nutmegs or whatever he does in a game v Germany. He made a few good decisions in final third, didnt over complicate things, played a nice long pass for Vardy too, I don’t think Bakayoko has that in his game to be as decisive in the final third but again Baka is more balanced, better at winning the ball back with tackles and interceptions, can still go forward (they are both similar in transitions) but I don’t think he is as forward thinking as Ruben. More chance of Baka in a MF 2 than RLC for me.

The narrative has been set. Every single time RLC or Chalobah play well for club and especially country the same cliche riddles idiot's will revert to "he's better than Bakayoko, what are Chelsea doing?"

Beyond cringeworthy.

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Ian Wright may not be the sharpest pin in the drawer, but he is an ex footballer, an exceptional one at that, and no ex footballer is wrong 100% of the time. One of those stabs in the dark will hit, and this one has. There is no cliche, there is no cringe necessary, in observing Loftus-Cheek, and seeing he's already doing what we're still waiting for from Bakayoko. For those observations to be pointed out by random forum users, but then highlighted completely separately by an ex-pro, isn't something to ignore. It clearly suggests this pro-Loftus-Cheek side is right about something. Neither side will be entirely wrong.

Add to this that those who put down Bakayoko, on here, don't put down 'people' (as in users or pundits) in general, yet those who claim Bakayoko's good enough, do seem to slander or dismiss people due to their conflicting opinions...which paints a picture of which side is more rational, and perhaps trustworthy in their evaluations. One side is looking at players, comparing traits, and talking stats - the other side is saying 'well i'm right, you're wrong.' Or, they say 'give him time, he has potential', as if that's anything to do with the players we compare today and now. A cop-out comment.
-

Loftus-Cheek brings to the table more qualities than Bakayoko does. (It shouldn't go without saying - though apparently it does, that this & every post on here is 'in my opinion' btw.)
All he lacks which Bakayoko has, is experience, which is clear when you measure their consistency. Bakayoko's consistently average, whereas Loftus-Cheek has high highs and low lows. Nobody can guess who'll turn out the better player, but this season, Loftus-Cheek has been superior.
He's the best player in his team. He was the best player on the pitch for his national side. No? Let me wait for Bakayoko to get a MOTM award (or just put in a MOTM-worthy performance, regardless of award). I might grow a new beard. My toes might grow beards in that time. Because when you watch him, there's not much to get excited about. He doesn't inspire because he isn't great, nor does he show the potential to be, in my opinion. (Which I'll elaborate on if anybody wants. But then we'd miss out on the fun of calling eachother idiots & scoffing at eachother's perspectives.)

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