🇧🇷 Ramires

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Feels like it's more suited to the players we have. Mikel in the lone anchor, Ramires as a box to box, Lampard/Oscar as attacking mid and Hazard and Mata roaming with slightly more protection behind them. We end up playing narrow with both Hazard and Mata on the pitch anyway because they naturally drift inwards so we lack width anyway. We'd keep the ball better (hopefully) without being overrun in midfield. It just makes sense. To me, anyway.

Cech

Ivan - Cahill - JT - Cole

Mikel

Ramires - Lampard

Mata - Hazard

Torres

Then there's no width. Ramires and Lampard are not wingers so Mata and Hazard would have to go out wide which is the biggest problem with moving to a different system. I want a system where Hazard and Mata are the ones running the attack, not just wingers.

[Slam Dunk 1,442]

Did you read the post? I said we lack width anyway when Hazard and Mata both play because they drift inwards. I'm just putting our best 11 (IMO) in their natural positions. You want width, you drop Mata and go back to a 4-3-3 with Marin & Moses out wide.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

@Slam Dunk, but with the current 4-2-3-1 you have (in the normal case) a winger instead of a central midfielder and Hazard deployed on the wing and he showed he can dribble past players on the flank and provide width.

[Slam Dunk 1,442]

Hazard is perfectly capable of playing on the wing, I know. He's not at his best there though, and neither is Mata. It just feels like when you have Bertrand - Mata - Hazard, we become unbalanced, going back and forward. Even more so in the case of Ramires at RW, who decides a RW is someone who plays a mile inside of his fullback when going forward. If you're going to rely on Hazard and Mata to be the attacking impetus of the team, you may as well give them both the freedom with another player protecting them from the midfield.

As I said, it just feels more natural with the players we have. Anyway, back to Ramires...Did anyone see his performance yesterday?

[ANDRECHO 432]

much better?

[laeth 527]

Cole will start instead of Bertrand. Torres will start instead of Sturridge. Stop dreaming.

[Blue-in-me-Veins 4,067]

^put mata in midfield instead ls oscar and moses/marin on lw and all is good.

mata should be played where he finished last year and thats cm. the christmas tree can do us well no doubt but thats and awfuly narrow game we'd be playing. i hope RDM plays rambo in cm in a 433 from now on and i think he will. that will drop lamps from playing every game which is good in my eyes becuz we can get best of both worlds.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Hazard is perfectly capable of playing on the wing, I know. He's not at his best there though, and neither is Mata. It just feels like when you have Bertrand - Mata - Hazard, we become unbalanced, going back and forward. Even more so in the case of Ramires at RW, who decides a RW is someone who plays a mile inside of his fullback when going forward. If you're going to rely on Hazard and Mata to be the attacking impetus of the team, you may as well give them both the freedom with another player protecting them from the midfield.

I like Hazard in the middle but I don't understand the "Mata is better when he's not on the wings" thing. He has played almost exclusively as a winger in his career and was better there under AVB than he was in the 4-2-3-1 under RDM last season. I agree that the side becomes absurdly imbalanced when we play with Bertrand or Ramires because neither belong in that position. I think with Moses or Marin on the wing it changes. I think our biggest issue so far is our poor shape. Mata and Hazard are basically duplicating each other. So, against Reading when Ramires started we literally had nobody who was actually playing on the left and a central midfielder on the right and when Bertrand plays we have a LB on the left and nobody on the right. It really imbalances the team and opens up massive avenues on the wings to counter-attack and just creates imbalance all over the field. Chelsea right now are playing with two #10s which you just can't do long-term.

[Slam Dunk 1,442]

It's like i'm back at school

As I said, if the manager is insistent on playing two number 10s in Hazard and Mata, then playing them both on the wings in a 4-3-3 is a waste and so is playing them in a lop-sided 4-2-3-1. The 4-3-2-1 also gives a bit more flexibility into a pure 4-3-3 if you want some width and target the fullbacks (of course it's dependant on the opposition).

I still think we're lacking the great midfield passer to support a fluid front 3, perhaps that's the plan for Oscar, as I dont think Lampard would appreciate the narrowness of it all if he wants to make a trademark late run. If Oscar were to become this, I think it'd work. But let's not get into hypotheticals...

@SeB - Don't know if its a language thing or whatever, but it cheapens your very well written argument somewhat when you refer casually to someone as a cunt.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

@SeB, I am sure you are right with what you wrote, but quite honestly I understood very little of it I guess that's why you're a coach and I'm not

[Slam Dunk 1,442]

That's hugely sarcastic, I feel like I'm the last Malouda fan on earth... I'm just sick to see that Mata or Hazard aren't even doing 20% of Malouda's defensive work when he used to play, still Malouda was regarded as lazy.

Haha I got it. In that case bravo

[Sheva. 5,373]

I'm just sick to see that Mata or Hazard aren't even doing 20% of Malouda's defensive work when he used to play, still Malouda was regarded as lazy.

But they give 100% more than Malouda can offer offensively.

[Joker10 946]

Its painful to see him wasted on the wing. I'm sure when he plays for Brazil he is put in a CDM position. He is a very good player RDM, use him properly.

He plays the CDM position without much success though.

He left Brazil exposed on multiple occasions vs South Africa, when he went forward.

4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1?

You switch your formation and style to accommodate your best players, for me Ramires is clearly not one of them. Switching formation could possibly neglect Mata and Hazard effectiveness, we shouldn't do that in favor of Ramires.

[The Skipper 20,609]

We won't be able to play the 4-3-3 effectively on a regular basis. If we do want to maximise the 4-3-3 we'd have to drop Hazard from the position he's most effective in and drop Mata in a similar way, as they really aren't as effective out wide. Playing those in a 4-3-3 would automatically turn the tactic into a Christmas tree formation.

For the best effectiveness in a 4-3-3 we'd have to play Marin - Torres - Moses, but I can't see us dropping either Hazard or Mata.

The 4-3-3 would however be perfect for Ramires and Oscar to an extent.

Ideally we'd make a hybrid between the 4-3-3 and the Christmas tree formation... But it'd be hard to achieve that.

[Joker10 946]

That sounds harsh on the paper but we haven't made a good performance without a good Ramires for almost 2 years. That doesn't implies the "Ramires=Chelsea" conclusion. But at the opposite we barely will find a good team performance with Ramires having a bad game.

Simply not true, and if true it doesn't say much because over the past two years we have looked our worst in years especially in midfield.

Beginning of Carlo second year, Ramires was barely used and we looked good. Last year in our CL and FA Cup run, we looked much better when Ramires was moved out of midfield into RW.

Those two are stretches of games, but i am sure i can name many performances where our teams looked good without Ramires in midfield. As i said our team was abysmal in the past two years and incredibly dysfunctional in midfield, so him being one of the best players on those teams say a lot more about how poor we were then how good he was.

We played teams we're expected to beat in PL. The SuperCup showed the tactical mess at the next level.

Individually and offensively Mata and Hazard are brilliant. But collectively that's not good in terms of team balance etc... let's not become big fishs in a small pond this season

Agreed the team has tactical flaws, but this reflects way more on RDM then Mata and Hazard. I don't think RDM has done enough to change our team to tailor around our best players. He basically gone with the approach that replacing Kalou and Malouda with better players and keeping last season formula will make us a better team. Simply not going happen, because in some aspects Kalou and Malouda are better then Hazard and Mata, talking about defensively and work rate.

[nadavTKL 1,787]

He plays the CDM position without much success though.

4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1?

You switch your formation and style to accommodate your best players, for me Ramires is clearly not one of them. Switching formation could possibly neglect Mata and Hazard effectiveness, we shouldn't do that in favor of Ramires.

I can understand your point about creating the formation so it will firstly suit our best players, but i think that you (and a lot others) put too much importance on the formation sytstem. 4-3-3 could mean a lot of different things, main thing is the Tactics. i remmember before the season started most of us wanted to see Hazard-Oscar-Mata behind Torres, when they are changing places beetwen them, if your not one of those so ok, but a 4-3-3 with Oscar, Remires and Mikel in midfield, doesnt have to be so different from a 4-2-3-1. in the defense you'll see Oscar in the central of the field most of the times, but on offense he can change places with Hazard and Mata. In that way we can enjoy the creativity of all three. Hazard and Mata is not quite enough all the time. Oscar could help us alot, and the third midfielder has to be Remires.

Like that i mean:

------Mikel------

Ramires------

----------Oscar

[Kieran. 6,317]

Ramires scored v. China

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Here's the goal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDI0sg_QcOk&feature=player_embedded#!

Good to see him linking up with Oscar!

[KonohasOrangeFlash 2,607]

His finishing has improved greatly. He seems to be very good at Chipping the keeper.

[Madmax 9,219]

I just caught the first half of that game - he looked very decent indeed in the pivot but then again, it's just China.