Jorginho

[Superblue 6,372]

8 minutes ago, Vesper said:

So a 4 2 3 1?

Or a 3 4 3?

Despite our success in the first season under Conte, I've always preferred a back 4 and I think at present we are best suited to playing a 4-2-3-1. 

Although any formation we use, we're still at least 3 players away from being really competitive with our current crop.

[Vesper 29,170]

2 minutes ago, Superblue_1986 said:

Despite our success in the first season under Conte, I've always preferred a back 4 and I think at present we are best suited to playing a 4-2-3-1. 

Although any formation we use, we're still at least 3 players away from being really competitive with our current crop.

                                               Kepa

 

Zappacosta                       Rudiger        AC                           Emerson

 

                                  Kante                    Kovacic

 

   CHO                             Ruben Loftus-Cheek                              Hazard

 

                                                 Higuain

[Superblue 6,372]

6 minutes ago, Vesper said:

                                               Kepa

 

Zappacosta                       Rudiger        AC                           Emerson

 

                                  Kante                    Kovacic

 

   CHO                             Ruben Loftus-Cheek                              Hazard

 

                                                 Higuain

Most of that to me looks more balanced than what we are currently.

I know he isn't playing well at present but I would always put Azpi over Zappacosta.

If we're to the point where Zappacosta is a good or our best option, we're in big trouble in my opinion.

I'm a big advocate for bringing Reece James back in the summer and giving him sufficient minutes to be given the opportunity to become first choice right back over Azpi in the next 12 - 18 months from the summer. 

Kovacic and Jorginho should be able to rotate in that role as 'deep playmaker' and I actually think against some of the lower teams especially at home that Kovacic and Jorginho could potentially play together as Kovacic has it in him to be more defensively minded and make tackles.

RLC I would give a chance in that position with more licence to play higher up the pitch. Barkley I would see as a bit of a utility player who could rotate with RLC and potentially play as one of the deeper midfielders too.

[Pizy 18,515]

Really sucks to see. He's a gem of a player who is paying a severe price during this experimental season.

I'm certainly not ready to bin him like a lot of our fans and seemingly 100% of the media are. Thing is, where do you move him in Sarri's 4-3-3? There really isn't a place.

If we played a 4-2-3-1 where Kante moves back into a pivot and therefor is always close to him I guess it would be better. But Sarri plays only one system so can't see it happening.

[Clockwork 1,794]

2 hours ago, Pizy said:

Really sucks to see. He's a gem of a player who is paying a severe price during this experimental season.

I'm certainly not ready to bin him like a lot of our fans and seemingly 100% of the media are. Thing is, where do you move him in Sarri's 4-3-3? There really isn't a place.

If we played a 4-2-3-1 where Kante moves back into a pivot and therefor is always close to him I guess it would be better. But Sarri plays only one system so can't see it happening.

Jorginho could be positioned on the RCM, where he could still effectively help the buildup and distribute while being relived of protecting the back four.

I personally think Jorginho role is very difficult what he is asked to do, he is basically asked to be Busquets and Xavi on this team. Kante alone can definitely not fill Jorginho role, and i am not sure how can do that definitely no one at Chelsea though. 

[Jase 43,479]

3 hours ago, Pizy said:

Really sucks to see. He's a gem of a player who is paying a severe price during this experimental season.

I'm certainly not ready to bin him like a lot of our fans and seemingly 100% of the media are. Thing is, where do you move him in Sarri's 4-3-3? There really isn't a place.

If we played a 4-2-3-1 where Kante moves back into a pivot and therefor is always close to him I guess it would be better. But Sarri plays only one system so can't see it happening.

Funny thing is, Sarri has mentioned about playing the 4-2-3-1 but he seems hell-bent on playing 4-3-3. You wonder why he doesn't just try out the former at this point and see how it goes.

[communicate 2,703]

7 hours ago, Pizy said:

Really sucks to see. He's a gem of a player who is paying a severe price during this experimental season.

I'm certainly not ready to bin him like a lot of our fans and seemingly 100% of the media are. Thing is, where do you move him in Sarri's 4-3-3? There really isn't a place.

If we played a 4-2-3-1 where Kante moves back into a pivot and therefor is always close to him I guess it would be better. But Sarri plays only one system so can't see it happening.

4231 is a option, but honesty there is very little difference. In some game you can see that kante is deeper an Kovacic play more as left winger to let hazard roam around kinda like a no 10. We are essentially almost play like 4231.

Rather formation, I personally prefer to improve our pressing game. 

[El P. 1,354]

1 hour ago, communicate said:

4231 is a option, but honesty there is very little difference. In some game you can see that kante is deeper an Kovacic play more as left winger to let hazard roam around kinda like a no 10. We are essentially almost play like 4231.

Rather formation, I personally prefer to improve our pressing game. 

Exactly.

I actually blame Kante to some extent. I saw many City's counters and he was nowhere to be seen. Sarri said himself - Kante needs to sit deeper when we are attacking on the left side. I have feeling in general that Kante isn't balancing his attacking and defensive duties well.

But no one will criticise him, because he is Kante. He is always the best, no matter what he does.

[communicate 2,703]

1 hour ago, El P. said:

Exactly.

I actually blame Kante to some extent. I saw many City's counters and he was nowhere to be seen. Sarri said himself - Kante needs to sit deeper when we are attacking on the left side. I have feeling in general that Kante isn't balancing his attacking and defensive duties well.

But no one will criticise him, because he is Kante. He is always the best, no matter what he does.

Even in 4231 most of the time one of the dm will go forward unless both fb push forward. Against big team I am personally not big fan of Jorginho as holder, he is not athletic enough. 

Against city, Sarri was the problem. Playing open game against city with this team in this form is just suicide 

But for me one problem at a time. We need to fix our pressing because we are playing with David luiz and Alonso in back 4. 

[Strike 7,286]

Jorginho is a good player but defensively he is getting no help and attacking wise he is not seeing enough of the ball. 

Once he is pressed by the opposition attackers, it leaves David Luiz breaking out of defense as the player who sets up the attack and he is very hit-and-miss with his distribution. I know sometimes he pulls of ridiculously good long balls but I would rather have someone with intelligence to pick out pockets of spaces or see where a simple pass can be made rather than have Luiz raise his head and launch it forward every now and then. 

[MoroccanBlue 5,320]

5 hours ago, El P. said:

Exactly.

I actually blame Kante to some extent. I saw many City's counters and he was nowhere to be seen. Sarri said himself - Kante needs to sit deeper when we are attacking on the left side. I have feeling in general that Kante isn't balancing his attacking and defensive duties well.

But no one will criticise him, because he is Kante. He is always the best, no matter what he does.

All of them were guilty of ball watching when balls were played in. Thought I was watching Arsenal at home again. 

[BlueLyon 9,359]

His defensive and offensive contribution definately depend on collective game too, but I can say his long balls are beyond shit for a while now.

For someone who plays a role where you have to be pass master, his long passing is realy realy bad. He just flicks them way too hard and they end up too far ahead of our players. 

Not to mention his short passing. He has this weird habbit of rarely passing the ball on the ground. He hoofs it in mid-air and its hard for his teammates to control it. 

[!Hazard! 3,394]

5 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

His defensive and offensive contribution definately depend on collective game too, but I can say his long balls are beyond shit for a while now.

For someone who plays a role where you have to be pass master, his long passing is realy realy bad. He just flicks them way too hard and they end up too far ahead of our players. 

Not to mention his short passing. He has this weird habbit of rarely passing the ball on the ground. He hoofs it in mid-air and its hard for his teammates to control it. 

It really is bizarre. What has happened to him? I remember him joining us in pre-season and during his 45 minutes I thought to myself that's a proper midfielder. Now he can't even pass the ball

When was the last time a top class player came to Chelsea and was top class still 6 months later? Somehow players always get gradually worse at this club

[MoroccanBlue 5,320]

13 minutes ago, !Hazard! said:

It really is bizarre. What has happened to him? I remember him joining us in pre-season and during his 45 minutes I thought to myself that's a proper midfielder. Now he can't even pass the ball

 

Which is why I was all for Paredes. Get some healthy competition within our most important role in have the team tick. 

[Henrique 9,133]

Can't believe some people here still believe in such player...his weakness are there to be seen since that Arsenal games many months ago, when the team won 3x2. Its clear back then that team is ultra exposed when don't have the ball, because his positioning and defensive skills are bad as you name it.

[Clockwork 1,794]

Against City, i am not sure how much fault i put on Jorginho. The way i saw it there was massive amount of space to the left and right of Jorginho. Yeah good luck to anyone trying to cover all that space. 

[OneMoSalah 8,810]

20 hours ago, Clockwork said:

Jorginho could be positioned on the RCM, where he could still effectively help the buildup and distribute while being relived of protecting the back four.

I personally think Jorginho role is very difficult what he is asked to do, he is basically asked to be Busquets and Xavi on this team. Kante alone can definitely not fill Jorginho role, and i am not sure how can do that definitely no one at Chelsea though. 

Well even then in that Barca team, the midfield had flexibility. Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta could all control and influence games. Some games Jorginho undoubtedly needs help because hes manmarked but Kante and Barkley/Kovacic lack the quality to do what he does with the ball. This is why I think Cesc had to be utlisied more with Jorginho as opposed to as his back up. Cesc can drop, get the ball out from deep by playing through the lines. You stand somebody on Jorginho and Kante/Kovacic are going to get the ball but struggle to dictate the game in a similar way because its not their strength. People talk about a lack of assists but Jorginhos primary function in that system is to set the tempo and build the game so we can get into the final third. At Napoli for instance Hamsik, an extremely versatile and rounded midfield player with a lot of strengths, could come deeper to relieve the responsibility on Jorginho and do that as well. Like at Madrid, if Kroos, an amazing midfielder in terms of dictating matches, was marked he could rely on Modric to come help him out and vice versa. Jorginho gets man marked and we struggle to get through the midfield because Kovacic and Kante dont have that same strengths. We do need variation yes but at the same time somebody like Cesc on his day can pick amazing passes and break teams presses.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

4 hours ago, OneMoSalah said:

Well even then in that Barca team, the midfield had flexibility. Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta could all control and influence games. Some games Jorginho undoubtedly needs help because hes manmarked but Kante and Barkley/Kovacic lack the quality to do what he does with the ball. This is why I think Cesc had to be utlisied more with Jorginho as opposed to as his back up. Cesc can drop, get the ball out from deep by playing through the lines. You stand somebody on Jorginho and Kante/Kovacic are going to get the ball but struggle to dictate the game in a similar way because its not their strength. People talk about a lack of assists but Jorginhos primary function in that system is to set the tempo and build the game so we can get into the final third. At Napoli for instance Hamsik, an extremely versatile and rounded midfield player with a lot of strengths, could come deeper to relieve the responsibility on Jorginho and do that as well. Like at Madrid, if Kroos, an amazing midfielder in terms of dictating matches, was marked he could rely on Modric to come help him out and vice versa. Jorginho gets man marked and we struggle to get through the midfield because Kovacic and Kante dont have that same strengths. We do need variation yes but at the same time somebody like Cesc on his day can pick amazing passes and break teams presses.

Busquets and Barca is actualy nice example.

No way were Xavi and Iniesta defensive masterminds, it all came to collective defending. Entire team pressed the opponents and it did the trick. Also they had most of possesion, so they had much less defending to do. 

At Chelsea we still dont know how to keep possesion. When opponenents let us have the ball, we do nothing with it and when they press, we lose it quite quickly. 

But more importantly, our collective defending is shite. Jorginho like Busquets is our holding man, but unlike Busquets he has little help. Kante is often way too far, Barkley is useless in defence, not to mention Alonso who is never where he should be. Hazard has to cover up for his ass which is a disgrace. If our back 4 and both midfielders closed space, Jorginho wouldnt be as exposed as he is. He is weak and slow and will never be fantastic DM, but if whole team cooperated in defense, he would look much more solid. I cant realy fault him for his defense, because that simply depends on whole team. 

His offense is weak though. No excuse for him to hoof the ball in the stands when he has the time to execute a perfect pass. He gets pressed often, but I have seen it every game he is completely free with alot of time and he completely fucks up a long pass. Thats individual quality and he seems to have zero confidence in him. Either that or he is simply not the player we thought he is when we bought him.