The Benitez Thread

[super_frank8 186]

I'm wondering who tackles in that midfield. Who drops into defend (like Mikel does, and Busquets does at Barca) and picks up the ball.

I love Frank but when I've seen him play this season, the ball has actually slowed down when it gets to him. It's been fairly noticeable actually.

None of the problems we've had would have been solved by Lamps, in my opinion.

Have Lampard & Ramires suddenly lost their ability to tackle??? They make just as many as Mikel does during a game when in a deeper position & give away a less fouls too. Ramires is an absolute beast at chasing back when he wants to, so with more discipline he can easily play in tandem with Lampard. If one pushes forward, the other sits back to cover - simple as that. It gives us far more options on the attack because they are both genuinely good with the ball, & doesn't really leave us any more vulnerable as long as they communicate properly & get back when they need to - which they are both pretty responsible with doing.

& have you actually watched Mikel throughout an entire game? More often than not - when he gets the ball, he is almost always hesitant unless there is an immediately obvious pass available for him, & far too many times he has rushed to move the ball on too quickly when it is unnecessary to do so & therefore picks the wrong pass - & this often results in surrendering possession either straight away through an easy interception or having put a teammate in a difficult position only to get tackled by the opposition. He's simply not intelligent, intuitive & effective enough on the ball to be the primary distributor from the middle of the park - nor is he skillful enough to actually carry the ball through the midfield himself. That is part of the point of a having a deeper lying midfielder, to keep the ball once he has received it & allow the right runs to be made, & then actually execute the pass itself once the play has unfolded. The problem with Mikel is that he doesn't see many of the runs being made around him - you have no idea how many times this season I have screamed at my TV out of utter desperation for him to spot Hazard or Oscar or Mata or Torres or Cole making a move in between the lines - but he inevitably never does & frustratingly instead, ironic to what you have said, slows down the play too much - & then the opportunity is already lost. If you had Lampard in the same position, sure he might hold onto the ball for a while - but more often than not he is going to see the pass & execute it to near perfection, that's just what he does. & at least you know he's not going to give it away cheaply - which Mikel does far too often for me to ignore.

& yes he is similar to Busquets in that he opts for a simple pass more often than not..but that holds up the play too much as well since you make that point. Lampard has variety to his passing, the key is that he smart enough to be able to pick out the not-so-obvious pass & good enough to carry the ball with him until it has opened up - which Mikel seems incapable of doing. & to be honest I don't really regard Busquets that highly as a player... He works in Barcas system because of the team around him, but we are not Barcelona & are never going to be unless Roman gives them the moon for Messi. They only have one deeper lying midfielder to break up play - the Makelele role if you like, which is the way that we used to play a few seasons ago when there was a clear segregation between the attacking midfielders/forwards & the holding midfielder/defenders.

But now we are playing a 4-2-3-1 & therefore the two players in the middle of the park really need to work in tandem with each other & be able to both attack & track back in order to be more effective - otherwise you're just wasting a place in the starting 11 with someone who doesn't provide any kind of threat going forward & barely prevents goals coming from the other way - which is the current case with Mikel. Look at Real Madrid as the model example - they have Alonso as the primary distributor, alongside any one of Modric/Khedira/Essien. All of these players can pass the ball, win the ball back decently enough & also push forward to score goals - just like Lampard & Ramires. As long as they remain disciplined, this allows the rest of the players in front of them freedom - as well as giving each of these central midfielders the opportunity to join the attack whenever they can whilst the other covers the gaps for him.

Mikel is equivalent to none of those players - he is atrociously indecisive & wasteful on the front foot - & honestly considering it is meant to be his actual specialised strong suit - just not consistent enough in the tackle & caught out of position far too often. The real problem is that this system encourages him to go forward now with so much space opening up thanks to the threat of Mazcar - but when he does get the ball in the final third, he seems to just suddenly freeze & ends up making the wrong choice, or simply skying or scuffing a shot that he never looked comfortable in taking, despite a genuine opportunity to put a strike on target from a potentially dangerous position. This is where we are missing Lampard's finishing & vision so much, because in those same positions that Mikel has inadvertently found himself in time & time again this season, Lamps would at least hit the target or have the guile & composure to draw out a blocker & spot the movement of a forward & play him in or spray it out to someone in space on the wings. We are really lacking the ability to change the dynamic of the play with pin-point long balls at the moment when it gets too congested, & there is no one better at doing that from midfield than Frank.

Ramires is a great physical presence in being ridiculously fast as well as possessing strength & balance that makes him hard to knock off the ball even in full flight, along with a massively valuable ability to chase breaking opposition down, & therefore provides the perfect complimentary contrast to Lampard's playmaking abilities. Defensively, I wouldn't say he is much worse than Mikel when it comes to marking & tackling effectively - pretty sure he gives away less fouls for the most part too. His real weaknesses are his shooting & passing from range, & that is why Lampard is needed in that partnership rather than Mikel - because it really is a bit silly to have two central midfielders who squander chance after chance to test the keeper when they're around the edge of the box, or simply hesitate & make an anxious decision due to being reluctant to take it on at all.

I guess none of us will ever know unless it is actually implemented for a continued period of time...but I believe that what we need is the playmaker in the middle of the park who can actually distribute the ball to all areas of the pitch, rather than just moving it along to the next guy - & more importantly - provide the goal scoring threat we have obviously been lacking this season.

[meetdoscar 335]

Lampard is an old man and oscar should be judged only after he has left the club(like drogba). Keep sucking the cock of our legends and we will never have new legends to enjoy. Same for rafa after RDM.

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

I'm wondering who tackles in that midfield. Who drops into defend (like Mikel does, and Busquets does at Barca) and picks up the ball.

I love Frank but when I've seen him play this season, the ball has actually slowed down when it gets to him. It's been fairly noticeable actually.

None of the problems we've had would have been solved by Lamps, in my opinion.

Our biggest problem has been in defence in my opinion. I don't think he helps that problem. He may have chipped in with a couple of important goals, but Oscar has done a pretty good job of that in Europe.

I honestly don't know where he plays in the 4231.

Which would have done the job. We did score only once against swansea, west brom and pool, 0 against juve, it's not that "a couple of important goals" would have made no difference. Also we wasted far more clear cut chances than we conceded goals in each of these games.

Btw i do not like debating with people who alterate their opinion during the debate in order to artificially elongate it. First you argue that Lamps would not have changed anything, then you relativize that into "would not helped our defensive problem" and in the end u got a problem with the position he would play in. That tactic is not only annoying for others it is also very inefficient cos u only weaken your stance every time. Get your opinion sorted out in the very beginning.

[super_frank8 186]

Can't be serious. It is ridiculously obvious that he is exactly the solution. Lamps is an experienced leader, world class finisher and legendary big match player, all that we have been missing, wasting 1000s of clear goalscoring chances, lacking head&heart and the ability to turn it on when it counts most. How did we win our trophies last season? Because we had a better coach, better tactics or more skilfull players, with tiki-taka and fancy trickery? No because our big, experienced players&leaders were at their best when it counted most, made no mistakes and used their fuckin opportunities. Without Lamps injury we would sit comfortably at the top of the epl and our cl group, cos there would have been a player who would have scored some of these 1000s of chances. In these times I would swap Oscar for Lamps every time.

100% agree with everything you have said there - apart from the last part. The whole beauty of this system is that we can have players like Oscar & Lamps linking up together - which is deadly in terms of shooting opportunites being created since they can both finish from anywhere within 35 yards of the goal.

Have you seen how many times Oscar has dribbled around on the left of the box & cut inside, obviously looking for a shot to open up, but then once he realises players closing him down like mad dogs & offloads it to the man outside the D - it unfortunately falls to either Mikel or Ramires - who inevitably attempt an unsuccessful shot or lobbed ball & lose possession, or just play it to a wing back & the chance for a shot from range is gone. With the way the team is set up in attack, there is almost always an enormous amount of space between the opposition defence & our central midfielders on the edge of the box because they are well aware of & mostly focused on the constant Mazcar threat in & around the box - & evidently not too worried about Mikel potentially shooting from range. This is the area that Lampard works in best, where he can create something out of almost nothing, or simply rifle it into the back of the net himself.

It's all theoretical of course...but from what I know & believe - we would at least be putting away more chances than we currently are - & that can only be a good thing.

[super_frank8 186]

Our biggest problem has been in defence in my opinion. I don't think he helps that problem. He may have chipped in with a couple of important goals, but Oscar has done a pretty good job of that in Europe.

I honestly don't know where he plays in the 4231.

Mate, our issue in defence is completely irrelevant to the midfield & Lampard, because we have been conceding a fuckload of goals in the last month while he's been out. In fact you could say we look even more frail without him if you do want to make it relevant to those defensive problems. But really the problem with our defence is that without JT, we have no organisation or discipline in the ranks & no one knows their places & positions; or at least adheres to them without fail. We are also simply missing his immense ability in the air as well as in making the vital blocks & tackles that prevent Cech from being peppered with shots constantly. We just seem to crumble under any kind of sustained intensive pressure from opposition, not even necessarily world class opposition as the Swansea & West Brom matches have shown.

But yer, saying that Lampard only chips in with a couple of important goals is absolutely absurd. Every goal is important when you're competing for trophies - & the fact remains that having been Chelsea's top scorer last season - he still gets a lot of them for a midfielder. Oscar is awesome, no doubt about that, & possibly the potential succesor to Lampard as our goal-scoring midfield-maestro - but for now he is a young player still constantly learning & improving in the hopes of becoming the truly indisputable world class player that he has the potential to be - & his role is further up the pitch within this 4-2-3-1 system. Would I sacrifice Oscar for Lamps? No, I wouldnt - because it is simply unnecessary & counter-productive to exclude either when you can have two such incisive & dangerous players on the field at the same time working together.

[Noctourniquet 14]

Here's a thought - Someone, right now, name one person more suited to taking the job until the end of the season who's available and willing to coach our players. Go.

Umm.. ROBBIE DI MATTEO! THAT'S WHO!

[kellzfresh 7,229]

100% agree with everything you have said there - apart from the last part. The whole beauty of this system is that we can have players like Oscar & Lamps linking up together - which is deadly in terms of shooting opportunites being created since they can both finish from anywhere within 35 yards of the goal.

Have you seen how many times Oscar has dribbled around on the left of the box & cut inside, obviously looking for a shot to open up, but then once he realises players closing him down like mad dogs & offloads it to the man outside the D - it unfortunately falls to either Mikel or Ramires - who inevitably attempt an unsuccessful shot or lobbed ball & lose possession, or just play it to a wing back & the chance for a shot from range is gone. With the way the team is set up in attack, there is almost always an enormous amount of space between the opposition defence & our central midfielders on the edge of the box because they are well aware of & mostly focused on the constant Mazcar threat in & around the box - & evidently not too worried about Mikel potentially shooting from range. This is the area that Lampard works in best, where he can create something out of almost nothing, or simply rifle it into the back of the net himself.

It's all theoretical of course...but from what I know & believe - we would at least be putting away more chances than we currently are - & that can only be a good thing.

Spot on there. Chelsea have a big problem in the pivot and most people think our pivot is okay.

The big problem is there is no goal threat from the pivot. No killer modric like passes or spraying passes to spread play or quicken counter attacks.

The problem with lampard is that, he doesn't fit with mikel in the pivot.

But I noticed our best game this season against norwich(who beat arsenal and manutd) lampard played with ramires there, and they were excellent.

We were a big threat going foward with lamps timing and ramires had the speed and energy to stop counter attacks on his own. This is where mikel is worse than ramires, because he offers no goal threat(he can't shoot on target in his life) and can't give long passes. All he does is sit in front of the defence and ramires is even better than him at tackling.

Because of lampards runs foward leaving mikel exposed he was dropped, but if it was ramires-lamps, the outcome would have been better as we know who the better tackler is..

You are also right that lamps is more intelligent than mikel who never sees hazard runs to try an overhead pass. Lampard would definately be better too in that department.

If lampard plays with mikel in the pivot, lamps doesn't play well. But with ramires, they complement each other and could be better than the mikel-ramires combo...

[The only place to be 11,313]

Jesus....seems I'm taking a load of shit for daring to question the role a player I've adored for years plays in a new system at the age of 34.

I'll start by saying that he's been one of our greatest players of all time and one of the greatest English midfielders ever to play the game. He's the bargain of the century and a great guy to boot. He's also fiercely intelligent and someone I could actually see managing us if he wanted to.

But I simply don't see what role he plays for us in the majority of games going forward. If we are going to go with the 4231 then I simply don't think he works that well in either the double pivot role or the more attacking roles which are firmly Hazard, Mata, Oscar and Moses territory. In the games I've watched him in this season, the ball slows down when it gets to him. It's noticeable. Ramires isn't much better, but he offers a lot more in terms of physicality with his engine. It's why he's been preferred alongside Mikel who we also need in that midfield for a number of reasons.

I don't know if Lamps wants to spend his last few seasons on the bench, getting increasingly few minutes. In terms of our defensive organisation I think the problems stem largely from missing Terry, but also from a lack of protection in midfield, but Lampard doesn't remedy that in my opinion.

I may have not made a few points as clearly as I should have, but I'm slightly fucked off by anyone questioning the esteem in which I hold I guy I've been supporting since his debut for us. The guy has given me so much enjoyment, but at some point players have to move on and there is also the point that we have young players who need gametime to help improve their game. The likes of McEachran and de Bruyne might not be there yet, but it can be detrimental to their long-term development to have a 35 year old (which he will be come next season) taking that spot on the bench ahead of them.

[The Big Drog 1,110]

Can't be serious. It is ridiculously obvious that he is exactly the solution. Lamps is an experienced leader, world class finisher and legendary big match player, all that we have been missing, wasting 1000s of clear goalscoring chances, lacking head&heart and the ability to turn it on when it counts most. How did we win our trophies last season? Because we had a better coach, better tactics or more skilfull players, with tiki-taka and fancy trickery? No because our big, experienced players&leaders were at their best when it counted most, made no mistakes and used their fuckin opportunities. Without Lamps injury we would sit comfortably at the top of the epl and our cl group, cos there would have been a player who would have scored some of these 1000s of chances. In these times I would swap Oscar for Lamps every time.

I'm not sure if any amount of logic can free you from the crazy train you are on. Baffling comment.

[Muzchap 8,966]

Jesus....seems I'm taking a load of shit for daring to question the role a player I've adored for years plays in a new system at the age of 34.

I'll start by saying that he's been one of our greatest players of all time and one of the greatest English midfielders ever to play the game. He's the bargain of the century and a great guy to boot. He's also fiercely intelligent and someone I could actually see managing us if he wanted to.

But I simply don't see what role he plays for us in the majority of games going forward. If we are going to go with the 4231 then I simply don't think he works that well in either the double pivot role or the more attacking roles which are firmly Hazard, Mata, Oscar and Moses territory. In the games I've watched him in this season, the ball slows down when it gets to him. It's noticeable. Ramires isn't much better, but he offers a lot more in terms of physicality with his engine. It's why he's been preferred alongside Mikel who we also need in that midfield for a number of reasons.

I don't know if Lamps wants to spend his last few seasons on the bench, getting increasingly few minutes. In terms of our defensive organisation I think the problems stem largely from missing Terry, but also from a lack of protection in midfield, but Lampard doesn't remedy that in my opinion.

I may have not made a few points as clearly as I should have, but I'm slightly fucked off by anyone questioning the esteem in which I hold I guy I've been supporting since his debut for us. The guy has given me so much enjoyment, but at some point players have to move on and there is also the point that we have young players who need gametime to help improve their game. The likes of McEachran and de Bruyne might not be there yet, but it can be detrimental to their long-term development to have a 35 year old (which he will be come next season) taking that spot on the bench ahead of them.

Ok - FORGET the DOUBLE PIVOT!!!

It's fucking shit and clearly hasn't worked!

That was RDMs ONLY formation...

If Lampard still has legs we can use him in a Scholes like position.

If I never see the fucking double pivot again it won't be too soon, with our current crop of players...

Fuck me RDMs ONE DIMENSIONAL approach has really rubbed off on you guys...

Saddening....

[Magic Lamps 11,692]

also do not like double pivot. 4-3-3 is best.

[The only place to be 11,313]

also do not like double pivot. 4-3-3 is best.

So if we play 433, where does Lamps fit in?

In my opinion if we're going with that then he still doesn't get in. The midfield 3 is either Mikel-Ramires-Oscar or Mikel-Ramires-Mata with Hazard on the left and one of about five players on the right.

[meetdoscar 335]

Lampard at 34 is experienced but overrated and doesn't make our first team for me but could be an important bit part player under benitez in vital games.

[Milan 17,955]

Couldn't resist

[Leif 6,006]

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