The Problem in Chelsea 4-2-3-1 Formation

[╫rue Blue 47]

This is good article to read, good analysis actually

just hope RDM realise it too, not stubborn and delusional

and then make a change in so many problem and wrong aspect in our team

After the 0-0 draw with QPR, many question have been raised by Chelsea fans concerning the personnel in our starting line up.

• Robbie has strangely been playing players in their wrong positions. The most notable examples of this are Ryan Bertrand a left back on the left wing, Ramires a central midfielder on the right wing and Frank Lampard an attacking midfielder in defensive midfield. This is a very strange decision in light of the fact that the club spent nearly £80m in the summer on players who can play in the 3 attacking midfield positions. Now there is absolutely no doubting RDM's ability as a motivator, he is top class at what he does, however his team selections leave a lot to be desired.
  

• Our main problem is retaining possession and moving the ball quickly, we need to find a solution to this problem and this is what i have come up with.
  

• In any formation, there is always an extremely important part of the system that needs to be functioning perfectly in order for the team to be at its best. It always used to be our striker, in days past we would hit Drogba and it would stick, then we would progress from there. We now have Torres and have switched to a 4-2-3-1 passing system from deep.
  

• The vital cog of the 4-2-3-1 formation is the two central defensive midfielders. These players are of supreme importance to the success of the system. The image on the right (above) is a diagram of what the formation looks like when we are in complete control of the ball.
  

The full backs push up

The centre backs are near the halfway line

The central defensive midfielders are 10-15 yards in the oppositions half

The 2 wide attacking players are near the corners of the box

The central attacking midfielder is roaming freely trying finding space throughout the centre.

The red lines are the passing options for the central defensive midfielders, as you can see they are at the heart of everything and have every player in blue within their passing range. In order to play this position effectively, both of them MUST remain behind the ball. When we have possession, they are there to set the tempo of the game and recycle the ball to keep the game ticking over at a fast pace. They need to be making fast and sharp 1 or 2 touch passes, less is definitely more here.

• The attacking players cannot function properly unless they get the ball quickly, the quicker they receive the ball, the more space they have to work their magic. The defensive midfielders should never be making runs in advance of the ball and should be moving horizontally across the pitch simply creating angles in order to give and receive passes. It is imperative that these two players are always available to receive a pass and recycle the possession.
  

in my opinion Lampard is not the problem, he still QUALITY player even without good pace and mobility

but the problem is RDM mind

what delusional he had, why he still place and give lampard in wrong position, wrong deskjob, wrong role to play there

these below is just mention the reason

• This is where the Frank Lampard discussion comes in. When Frank plays in the defensive midfield position he is constantly making runs in advance of the ball, he ends up sitting in between the striker and the central attacking midfielder in search for goals and his double figure tally. He simply doesn’t have the discipline for this role. This causes 3 main problems for the team;
  

1. There is one less option in the centre of the park for us to keep the possession, instead of always being available and helping the team keep the ball, he is actually a hindrance to the team because he turns the formation into an extremely unbalanced 4-1-3-1-1. He leaves Mikel on his own which significantly reduces passing options from the middle as he will only have angles on for half of the passes (either to the right or to the left).

2. His advanced runs close off all the space that our free role player has to work with because he will bring a marker with him. That is 2 more players in the small intricate space that Mata/Hazard have to operate in. This essentially nullifies our attack.

3. This leads to the play being broken up and the opposition going on the counter attack. Lampard is now so far forward that there is a gaping hole through the middle which Mikel has to attempt to fill and we get exploited. Re-watch the Atletico Madrid game (painful I know) and you will see exactly what I mean. Ivanovic also wasn’t fast enough to get back to defend the counter attack, although that is another story.

from http://www.chelseada...frank_8422.html

and I give more problem in my opinion

• Our attacking front REALLY need more hardwork when comes to defend and more fluid not static
  
• Our mentality and determination is so lacking
  
• Our passing is pathetic and slow ( actually this mention above ) and with poor movement too
  
• a complete lack of mobility in midfield, just because the combination, as a partnership lampard and mikel is have good quality, but their pace and mobility is so wrong as a partner in very important aspect to our succes or atleast to show good football in this 4-2-3-1 formation
  

but, i still believe in RDM, he needs time

i hope he will learn

but he MUST adrees our ultimate problem

and absloutley must change, improve and fix so many things

but if he doenst make some change, and if he doenst want fucked up

he must drop and switch to another formation

any thoughts ?

[KonohasOrangeFlash 2,607]

4-3-3 should at least be tried by RDM. If we continue to play 4-2-3-1 at least use players in their correct positions and drop Lampard from the Double Pivot.

[dumps 284]

So ultimately, we would see asignificant imrpovement in possession and performance by replacing lmapard with someone like Romeu? he wont venture forward. problem solved. quick change of personal to someone who will do what RDM wants?

Surely if RDM didnt want lampard to drift up field he would tell him to? and then proceed to subbing him off if he kept going out of position? those are both things RDM hasnt done, so RDM wants lampard to push up...

He obviously has some sort of tactic that we just aren't seeing!?

[Hutcho 8,443]

The problem has existed for nearly 2 seasons now the difference being we had some people who were more effective up top... We have signed all these players yet only 1 started yesterday and arguably our best player from last season (Mata) was not there. The team is still set out to soak up pressure and hit people on the break whcih needs to change. We need to give all the qality young talent a chance. Players like Oscar would walk into any premier league team. For example united would have him in an instant in thier cm. Man city bought Jack rodwell and he started his first game, Garcia has also since them came in and been given a shot. It doesn't matter what formation we play but if we set up with:

Lampard Mikel

Ramires Hazard Bertrand

Torres

We are not gonna be dominating the ball and controlling things which we should be. We saw in the last 10 mins the difference Moses and Danny made. We created more. And more attacking options could make us a bit more vulnerable on he counter but if we are bossing 60% of the possession we should be able to control the tempo of the game and do it our way. "They can't score if we have the ball". I think Oscar could do great at CAM but becuase lots of problems seem to be deeper in the double pivot i think we have to put him in there, as we have all seen he moves the ball quickly and is incredibly active. Moses over ramires, i don't think this needs explaining in the slightest, we all watched the games, and Danny over torres. Finally chuck mata in there and we have a young quick team that will be able to create. I would much rather see that than us doing some sort of holding on tactics against what is lesser oposition.

[╫rue Blue 47]

So ultimately, we would see asignificant imrpovement in possession and performance by replacing lmapard with someone like Romeu? he wont venture forward. problem solved. quick change of personal to someone who will do what RDM wants?

Surely if RDM didnt want lampard to drift up field he would tell him to? and then proceed to subbing him off if he kept going out of position? those are both things RDM hasnt done, so RDM wants lampard to push up...

He obviously has some sort of tactic that we just aren't seeing!?

no, not romeu

actually, nobody in this team, can be as the solution for the player who can play great in double pivot

but, atleast, RDM must try different, must change his team selection, and improve vital aspect in our system

he should not make lampard again, again, and again trying to take a role in double pivot

iam sick to watch that

not just about lampard himself but that is really cost our system, because that aspect is our engine

as instant solution? no player in our team

but my point,the different player, even still bad in some aspect for play in double pivot

there some posibility to learn and develop by time

than just playing lampard there too often

just tell him to ? if that so, it same case with torres, ramires, bertrand who play useless

we can assume they play just like RDM instruction

but the problem is what RDM think can work , that doesnt work

and he doesnt make a change for that, or too long

[EskWeston 696]

Either RDM needs to play the players to work the system or change the system. What we are doing now is madness.

If we are playing 4-2-3-1 then the 2 need to be defensively disciplined and not get forward. To my mind i would like to see Mikel and Romeu given a go together or drop Ramires back in there who i thought was much better when played in the middle eventually on Saturday.. With 3 attacking midfielders ahead we need them to make sure they make the game tick but then move the ball to the attacking players. At the moment we are having the striker, 3 attacking midfielders, 1 of the defensive midfielders (who seems to get ahead of the attacking midfielders on a regular basis) and 2 full backs all in advanced positions and then we wonder why we get caught on the break.

I know it is blasphemy to knock Lampard, but the man cannot play this system. We need to allow our 3 attacking midfielders to do their job but he wants to be up there too. RDM either needs to change the personnel (personally i can't see him dropping Frank) or we change the system.

[dumps 284]

no, not romeu

actually, nobody in this team, can be as the solution for the player who can play great in double pivot

but, atleast, RDM must try different, must change his team selection, and improve vital aspect in our system

he should not make lampard again, again, and again trying to take a role in double pivot

iam sick to watch that

not just about lampard himself but that is really cost our system, because that aspect is our engine

as instant solution? no player in our team

but my point,the different player, even still bad in some aspect for play in double pivot

there some posibility to learn and develop by time

than just playing lampard there too often

just tell him to ? if that so, it same case with torres, ramires, bertrand who play useless

we can assume they play just like RDM instruction

but the problem is what RDM think can work , that doesnt work

and he doesnt make a change for that, or too long

I personally think Oriol would be dynamite in that position.

I also think that Ryan and Rami are doing exactly as they are told/is expected of RDM, they just arent comfrotable doing hwats asked of them which is why they arent "playing well"

[Leif 6,006]

In my opinion, Lampard should adopt the Giggs role.

He should play against the 'minos' in the Champions League as his experience is vital, and come off the bench when needed.

When playing against the 'minos', he should play in the double pivot, even though he isn't that good there. We don't have anyone experienced and calm-headed enough to play there yet in my opinion.

Against the big sides, I'd love Romeu to start playing again. He was wonderful against the likes of Newcastle and Manchester City last season.

When coming on as a sub or playing in the FA Cup while Mata/Hazard etc. are resting, I really don't see why he can't play behind Torres.

I'm positive that a Marin - Lampard - Moses combo would rip certain teams apart. That's a combo of pace on the wings, with decisiveness and an eye-for-goal in the centre.

I'm sure that Torres's little flick ons would finally DO something if they simply fell to Lampard's feet right behind him. Boom. Goal.

This doesn't solve the whole problem, but we need to work at this situation bit-by-bit.

However, if we do stick with the 4-2-3-1, using this formation alone with these tactics baffles me.

TWO holding midfielders!? I thought European Champions were supposed to show a bit more guts than that.

Manchester City and Real Madrid have 2 double-pivots that I admire greatly. City's consists of a holding midfielder in Yaya Toure who becomes a box-to-box midfielder when space is opened up and Manchester City are on the counter-attack. Barry/Garcia just sit there, cool headed, trying to break down opposition moves.

Real Madrid of course use a holding midfielder who becomes a box-to-box midfielder at times in Khedira, and then on top of that, they have the masterful Xabi Alonso who acts as a deep-lying playmaker as well as a player who can intercept well.

Why aren't we doing either of the above with our pivot?

It seems we're trying to use Mikel like Gareth Barry and Lampard, for some reason, like Yaya Toure... but... just... ugh. I can't even put into words how stupid that is.

I believe we need to make a mix of Manchester City and Real Madrid's tactics a little. We should make it so that Mata acts as our Silva; Hazard as our Nasri/Aguero, with Marin/Moses playing as a winger to mix it up just a little like Di Maria.

We then need to find not another holding midfielder, but an Xabi Alonso-esque player who can retain possession, recycle possession, and win back possession. Who's on the market who can play like that? I'm not too sure. I'd then be happy with having Romeu/Mikel rotating in the holding role depending on which tactics we're using and who we're up against; Romeu when we're playing a more attacking game, and Mikel when we're playing a more cautious game.

I noticed last season that during most of his games, Romeu was absolutely masterful when it came to covering for Luiz when he roamed forward. Romeu would literally slot into the back 4, while the rest of our team moved slightly deeper to cover for Luiz as he ran up-front or up-wide.

With Mikel, when Luiz goes forward, he just stays where he is most of the time, waiting to intercept the ball when the inevitable happens; Luiz loses the ball and the opposition counter-attacks.

Perhaps instead of just looking at the idea of "Mikel and Lampard don't work", we should be looking at other bad combos, such as Mikel/Luiz, Ivanovic/Mikel (I believe they're too slow when both on the right), etc.

Finally; in my opinion, the idea of being a 'counter-attacking team' to suit Torres is just an awful philosophy. Of course you need a base of tactics to work upon, but never should a team with such big aspirations limit themselves to just 1 or 2 styles of play. Every game is different, and every player is different. We should bring in the players to play numerous tactics well.

For a start, it would be good to sign a player coming from a team who plays 4-2-3-1 for once if we're going to stick with this formation.

I don't even know what I'm on about. I haven't slept yet. I'm just rambling and have probably made countless errors. I'm sure someone will correct me.

[EskWeston 696]

I personally think Oriol would be dynamite in that position.

I also think that Ryan and Rami are doing exactly as they are told/is expected of RDM, they just arent comfrotable doing hwats asked of them which is why they arent "playing well"

Whats the point in spending a fortune on players to play in a 4-2-3-1 and then not playing them and playing people out of position. With 2 proper holding midfielders we give greater freedom to 3 proper attacking midfielders to cause damage.

[dumps 284]

Whats the point in spending a fortune on players to play in a 4-2-3-1 and then not playing them and playing people out of position. With 2 proper holding midfielders we give greater freedom to 3 proper attacking midfielders to cause damage.

not sure I understand what you mean.

I agree that Rami and Bertrand shouldnt be playing in those positions (which is what i think you are saying) i was just saying to the other guy that i think they are doing exactly what RDM expects/wants of them - which is stupid.

and by having Romeu with mikel in the double pivot, the 3 attacking midfielders will have greater freedom. Rami would be good next to Mikel as well (could possibly play a bit like Frank in terms of off the ball movements, however).

[chelsea_4_eva 1,182]

lampard is REALLY not suited for the double pivot. please RDM give romeu a chance.

[KonohasOrangeFlash 2,607]

Playing the same personnel could cost RDM his job. He needs to integrate youth into the team. Players like Oscar and Romeu should be top of the list.

[communicate 2,703]

Either RDM needs to play the players to work the system or change the system. What we are doing now is madness.

If we are playing 4-2-3-1 then the 2 need to be defensively disciplined and not get forward. To my mind i would like to see Mikel and Romeu given a go together or drop Ramires back in there who i thought was much better when played in the middle eventually on Saturday.. With 3 attacking midfielders ahead we need them to make sure they make the game tick but then move the ball to the attacking players. At the moment we are having the striker, 3 attacking midfielders, 1 of the defensive midfielders (who seems to get ahead of the attacking midfielders on a regular basis) and 2 full backs all in advanced positions and then we wonder why we get caught on the break.

I know it is blasphemy to knock Lampard, but the man cannot play this system. We need to allow our 3 attacking midfielders to do their job but he wants to be up there too. RDM either needs to change the personnel (personally i can't see him dropping Frank) or we change the system.

4231 is not meant to be that static. The 2 double pivot has to be flexible. They cannot jjust sit deep, they have to go forward when needed. I have no problem with lampard bombing forward when mikel stay back. One problem with mikel is that his passing is just too slow.

For some of you who want us to play 433. It's not going to happen. Let' say we play 433 with Mata on the right wing. Since Mata want to play in the hole he will come inside to the middle and Ramires has to come to the right to cover the right flank. It's back to 4231 again

[EskWeston 696]

4231 is not meant to be that static. The 2 double pivot has to be flexible. They cannot jjust sit deep, they have to go forward when needed. I have no problem with lampard bombing forward when mikel stay back. One problem with mikel is that his passing is just too slow.

For some of you who want us to play 433. It's not going to happen. Let' say we play 433 with Mata on the right wing. Since Mata want to play in the hole he will come inside to the middle and Ramires has to come to the right to cover the right flank. It's back to 4231 again

When playing 3 attacking midfielders that is exactly what you DO want. Obviously they are involved in the movement of the ball in attacking play but there is no way one of them should be in advance of the 3 attacking midfielders. We are having to play a defensive option (Bertrand or Ramires) in an AM slot to counteract the fact that Lampard bombs forward. This to me seems pointless and completely knocks the balance of the team.

Ramires is a top player but in the centre of the park. Bertrand is a top player at left back, he is pretty ineffective as an attacking option. We are completely out of balance at the moment.

[╫rue Blue 47]

4231 is not meant to be that static. The 2 double pivot has to be flexible. They cannot jjust sit deep, they have to go forward when needed. I have no problem with lampard bombing forward when mikel stay back. One problem with mikel is that his passing is just too slow.

For some of you who want us to play 433. It's not going to happen. Let' say we play 433 with Mata on the right wing. Since Mata want to play in the hole he will come inside to the middle and Ramires has to come to the right to cover the right flank. It's back to 4231 again

the problem in my opinion, not because how mikel passing

in contrary i think the problem, is because lampard have to bombing forward

because he doesnt have legs anymore

is bad and not effective because he doesnt get forward in exact time like before

and hard to get back in time

it cost us in 2 aspect, when he help attacking isnt effecctive

and for defensive , his tracking back is slow and his movement for covering is not good either

for mikel, i think mikel still can be good personel to our system, but if him not pair with lampard

and lampard in double pivot there actually can be not really bad, better maybe

if lampard not have pair with mikel, but with player who have more mobility to covering more space

is more because as a player lampard and mikel have good quality, but their pace and mobility is so wrong as a partner

if team want not just to play deep and sit back

[Kojo 4,676]

4-3-3 is probably our best formation to play with at the moment. It just lacks that creativity and technical passer in the midfield that's all, unless we played Oscar there.

Cech

Ivanovic-Luiz-Terry-Cole

Ramires-Romeu-Oscar

Moses-Torres-Hazard

I think that formation has something to offer, and is much better. Don't think we will get caught out defensively to be honest, or even play Mikel instead of Ramires there, i don't rate Mikel but he could play as an alternate midfielder in the three man midfield. What Mikel can't do is play as our only defensive midfielder, as he cannot handle the reliability and what that job brings, but if we are going to keep him, may as well make use of him somehow.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

When playing 3 attacking midfielders that is exactly what you DO want. Obviously they are involved in the movement of the ball in attacking play but there is no way one of them should be in advance of the 3 attacking midfielders. We are having to play a defensive option (Bertrand or Ramires) in an AM slot to counteract the fact that Lampard bombs forward. This to me seems pointless and completely knocks the balance of the team.

That's not what is happening at all. I have no idea why people think that the double pivot is two defensive midfielders nor do I have any idea why people think speed is crucial for a deep-lying midfielder. I think there is just a narrative that has taken hold that cannot be shaken. Possible the three best deep-lying midfielders in football today are Pirlo, Iniesta, and Xabi Alonso. None of them are particularly fast (in fact, I would say "slow" would be applicable to Alonso at least). None of them are defensive midfielders. They are distributors and they also know how to get forward to join the attack. The deep-lying midfielder position is a creative, distributive one with some defensive responsibilities. Speed is simply not crucial for the role.

Lampard's problem has been that his passing so far has been sub-standard and he's probably making one or two too many runs a game. Maybe it's that he's lost something but it could also be a bad few games to start the season. Players do have bad stretches. The reason we have been playing Ramires on the right is that neither Hazard or Mata track back enough (and Ivanovic needs some protection as he's been caught out of position often so far this season.) It's clear that no matter what Lampard is going to get blamed for everything (and this is a trend that went back to last year after he had a few bad games then.) If we give up goals, it's because of Lampard in the double pivot. If we don't score, it's because of Lampard in the double pivot. (And if we do keep a clean sheet or score, it has nothing to do with Lampard.) People just have the same ideas for what's wrong with Chelsea and they watching games to confirm these opinions. It's really the same with Ramires. He's not ideal for the right attacking midfield, but because people hate him there, they don't see any good that he does and exaggerate how bad he is there. Nobody seems to have mentioned Ramires' pass to Hazard that he should have scored on. Nobody mentions Lampard's beautiful through-ball to Bertrand that he should have done better with. If it doesn't fit with the narrative, just ignore it.

With Ramires, we do have other options to play on the right. With Lampard, we don't have any other options. He's not ideal for the deep-lying midfield positions, but we literally have nobody else right now to fill that spot. Perhaps Oscar will develop into that spot, but he has a lot of adapting still to go.

[Sheva. 5,373]

The main problem is the double pivot, against any decent team a midfield 2 of Lampard and Mikel will always come up second best and thus mean we can't get the ball to the attackers enough.

I've said for a while now RDM needs to change it up and try different options there, but doesn't look like he cares.

[Sheva. 5,373]

That's not what is happening at all. I have no idea why people think that the double pivot is two defensive midfielders nor do I have any idea why people think speed is crucial for a deep-lying midfielder. I think there is just a narrative that has taken hold that cannot be shaken. Possible the three best deep-lying midfielders in football today are Pirlo, Iniesta, and Xabi Alonso. None of them are particularly fast (in fact, I would say "slow" would be applicable to Alonso at least). None of them are defensive midfielders. They are distributors and they also know how to get forward to join the attack. The deep-lying midfielder position is a creative, distributive one with some defensive responsibilities. Speed is simply not crucial for the role.

Lampard's problem has been that his passing so far has been sub-standard and he's probably making one or two too many runs a game. Maybe it's that he's lost something but it could also be a bad few games to start the season. Players do have bad stretches. The reason we have been playing Ramires on the right is that neither Hazard or Mata track back enough (and Ivanovic needs some protection as he's been caught out of position often so far this season.) It's clear that no matter what Lampard is going to get blamed for everything (and this is a trend that went back to last year after he had a few bad games then.) If we give up goals, it's because of Lampard in the double pivot. If we don't score, it's because of Lampard in the double pivot. (And if we do keep a clean sheet or score, it has nothing to do with Lampard.) People just have the same ideas for what's wrong with Chelsea and they watching games to confirm these opinions. It's really the same with Ramires. He's not ideal for the right attacking midfield, but because people hate him there, they don't see any good that he does and exaggerate how bad he is there. Nobody seems to have mentioned Ramires' pass to Hazard that he should have scored on. Nobody mentions Lampard's beautiful through-ball to Bertrand that he should have done better with. If it doesn't fit with the narrative, just ignore it.

With Ramires, we do have other options to play on the right. With Lampard, we don't have any other options. He's not ideal for the deep-lying midfield positions, but we literally have nobody else right now to fill that spot. Perhaps Oscar will develop into that spot, but he has a lot of adapting still to go.

Alright Ramires made one good pass in the 2nd minute, what else did he do for the remainder of the time he played on the right? nothing.

The most annoying thing (apart from the fact that, that wing is basically useless when we attack) about Ramires playing on the right is he doesn't even help out as much defensively as Bertrand does on the left.

When Bertrand starts ahead of Cole you can be almost sure they won't get beat more than once. Totally different case on the right side.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Alright Ramires made one good pass in the 2nd minute, what else did he do for the remainder of the time he played on the right? nothing.

The most annoying thing (apart from the fact that, that wing is basically useless when we attack) about Ramires playing on the right is he doesn't even help out as much defensively as Bertrand does on the left.

When Bertrand starts ahead of Cole you can be almost sure they won't get beat more than once. Totally different case on the right side.

Part of that is Cole is the best 1 on 1 defending LB in the world and Ivanovic is not near that level. Ramires didn't have a good match, but he wasn't nearly as awful as people make him out to be but then again, he never is Look at the game thread, 10 minutes into the match with Ramires creating the best chance of the game and people are writing "take Ramires off" and "he's useless". If it were Oscar who had played that 10 minutes, the same people would have written "that cross to Hazard shows his quality, and he has great pace, he deserves to be starting." It's almost as if the game itself doesn''t matter because no matter what, people will say the players they liked played well and the players they didn't were awful. The reason we didn't win against QPR is that Hazard and Luiz missed 3 glorious opportunities to score and we didn't get a deserved penalty (or two). We really only conceded one very good chance (when Terry cleared the ball away from the empty net, although to be fair Cole was right behind him if it got through).