Oscar

[LDN Blue 7,903]

I do want to clarify my position on Oscar, because I do think reflecting back I was harsh on the boy.

First of, I'm a fan of his general play. He can be a valuable asset when his concentration spans for the entire game, not just when we're in need of goals but even once those goals have gone in - to maintain our advantage over opponents.

His goals and assists this season can't be dismissed by any means. I saw someone said earlier that Willian gets more praise than Oscar on TC, well I don't believe that for a second because if you go on his thread there's countless members talking about a frustration with lack of end-product. Oscar is above Willian, because of the end product and all-round play IMO.

What is frustrating about Oscar is there isn't a consistent run of good performances by him. He goes through spells of being anonymous or in exceptionally rare cases (Newcastle) a liability. I want him to do well, he's only 23 and has played a hell of a lot of football since being signed for both club and country. But it's no real surprise that Mourinho has opted for Cesc as the number 10 as opposed to Oscar in big games. One could look at that as Mourinho prefers another defensive-minded MF in such games, but I largely think it's more about Oscar's contribution.

His goals and assists - again, I'm not trying to say they're pointless - have come against sides like Swansea, Palace, QPR, West Brom. Teams that can be difficult to breakdown but there's a clear difference in where/when he performs.

Mourinho was very vocal about Oscar being his number 10 when the decision to sell Mata came about. But in Cesc, Mourinho has shifted emphasis to him as opposed to Oscar. I have no doubt Mou is working with Oscar to improve him and eventually that hopefully will pay dividends and we'll see a more consistent world class Oscar in both small games and bigger ones.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,916]

  On 19/01/2015 at 16:08, Barbara said:

That's the very definition of nitpicking imo. Especially because every player is entitled to mistakes. It's when something becomes a routine that the problem starts.

The quantity and longevity of what you call his mistakes are the heart of this discussion. There are plenty of them and they've been going on for a long time. First there were the silly he's tired excuses, now it's that there aren't really any failings in Oscar's game and those of us who are discontented with him just can't see straight. Oh well.

[Supermonkey92 1,428]

Time for me to post again and it should be in this thread. I was always sceptical of how far we could go with oscar in our team, which was weird because I really like him. I hoped if it didn't work out in the 10 role because of limitations or whatnot, he could still make it as a box to box midfielder, but I think it's time to come out and say I was wrong.

This season he has taken the trajectory I wanted him to. Consistency is improving, his link up play has become way more consistent, though I think it has improved it was always a case of consistency with him. When I stopped and thought of his goals yesterday for this season, how many rank as our top individual goals? The team play has been our biggest strength this year and the cesc/costa relationship is the gem, but when you look at individual goals which help to open the game, Oscar has in all honesty been our best player, in objective terms.

Most goals after costa, and how many were blinders? QPR was world class, palace free kick was art, both goals yesterday were of the highest order. His assist are improving, particularly his crossing from the left. Of course, he isn't finished. His passing can be frustratingly sloppy at times and as noted these Performances are mainly against lower opposition. Having said that, isn't this the trajectory that we expect? Become a small team killer and steadily improve to take it to the bigger stage. Having said all of this, his performance against arsenal at home was electric.

Of course, I'll still take a hypocritical step back and say I'm not so sure how far he can go! I'd be happy for him to be a level under world class, say a kind of berbatov. Someone who is a really good player, wins games for the tea, but isn't someone you look to to provide the spark. InB4 berbatov wasn't world class! The guy had the touch of silk!

[DYC. 7,542]

  On 19/01/2015 at 17:25, OhForAGreavsie said:

The quantity and longevity of what you call his mistakes are the heart of this discussion. There are plenty of them and they've been going on for a long time. First there were the silly he's tired excuses, now it's that there aren't really any failings in Oscar's game and those of us who are discontented with him just can't see straight. Oh well.

I think you're feelings on Oscar are fair. Not only that, you explain your issues with him very well imo. But I'll never agree with the posts making him sound like he's a player who has no quality at all or that he hardly contributes. It's the same with other players. Chels are doing pretty well for a team with all these incompenent players. Before their recent 'mini-slump', City were apparently so much better (not to mention the almost flawless Bayern, Real, Barca players). I'm sure those feelings have changed now though. Until a few poor performances by our boys of course.

[robsblubot 3,595]

  On 18/01/2015 at 18:41, DYC. said:

According to WhoScored, Oscar played 80 passes at a 85% pass completion rate. Which 12 passes out of 80 didn't reach it's target. You're exaggerating. That said, he did annoy me with his at times wayward passing. But looking at the bigger picture, Oscar did perform well. Any player's job goes further than passing.

Rating a player's performance is subjective. What's more valuable, a beautiful pass setting up a goal (not directly assisting) or a great tackle dispossessing your opponent. Is a dribble going past two players more valuable than some excellent tracking work preventing runners from going through on goal? Does a goal line clearance trump a goal scored that ends up winning a match? Brilliant movemement vs brilliant passing? What is a passer without a receiver?

But decisveness is always key. I've seen Cristiano Ronaldo put in ordinary performances, score 2 goals and receive all the plaudits. Meanwhile, players like Modric, Ozil, Alonso would provide a brilliant performance. CR being crowned MOTM is still deserved because goals win games. Top all-round performances don't necessarily win you games. Still, one of the midfielders being awarded MOTM would've been deserved as well.

What I'm trying to say is, there is no one way of looking at football. Oscar was not my MOTM but saying others are wrong for picking him, or for saying he was quality, is an ignorant statement. Btw, ESPN rated him a 9, he received a 8.9 on WhoScored, 4.5 stars out of 5 on Goal.com, 8.5 from The Daily Mail. So it's not just the posters here like you said.

Great post!

My personal take is that a goal is just too important in a game like football. Not even a touchdown in American Football compares to the importance of goals. Goals also change games by forcing strategy and formation changes - much less so in Am Football.

Someone said once that football is the only sport where the performance of the teams on the pitch does not necessarily determine the final score. We all know that very well; by watching games where one team has all possession, and therefore control, but does not score and the other team with a simple movement scores the winner; the ratings/stats would tell one story, while the scoreline a different one.

So, it's only natural that if a player scores 2 goals, neither being a tap in, his rating is going to shoot up. His impact on the game was measurably huge and there is absolutely no guarantees that a different player would have been as influential. What if the other player had a 95% pass completion, but all completely innocuous passes? Or perhaps he did set up other players more, but they just couldn't finish - all intangibles.

There is a reason that the most expensive players on the planet are the ones who can directly impact the game with goals and assists: scoring goals is hard!

My only problem with the overall discussion over Oscar is really that people like to completely ignore that he is 23.

[DYC. 7,542]

  On 19/01/2015 at 17:52, Robguima said:

Great post!

My personal take is that a goal is just too important in a game like football. Not even a touchdown in American Football compares to the importance of goals. Goals also change games by forcing strategy and formation changes - much less so in Am Football.

Someone said once that football is the only sport where the performance of the teams on the pitch does not necessarily determine the final score. We all know that very well; by watching games where one team has all possession, and therefore control, but does not score and the other team with a simple movement scores the winner; the ratings/stats would tell one story, while the scoreline a different one.

So, it's only natural that if a player scores 2 goals, neither being a tap in, his rating is going to shoot up. His impact on the game was measurably huge and there is absolutely no guarantees that a different player would have been as influential. What if the other player had a 95% pass completion, but all completely innocuous passes? Or perhaps he did set up other players more, but they just couldn't finish - all intangibles.

There is a reason that the most expensive players on the planet are the ones who can directly impact the game with goals and assists: scoring goals is hard!

My only problem with the overall discussion over Oscar is really that people like to completely ignore that he is 23.

Don't have much more to add to that. I completely agree.

You are right about Oscar being young. I understand that being patient is hard but he is still growing. It's funny though, many want to add all kinds of yong talents to the team, not realising they'll struggle to perform consistently too.

Anyway, I once wrote a post about Eden, on how he compares to current stars at the same age. The same applies to Oscar as well. Young world-class players are rare. Where were the likes of Schweinsteiger, Silva, Iniesta, Ribery etc. development wise at Oscar's age? Some went on to become two, or even 3 times the player they were at a young age. What about Matic? From hardly good enough to be starter at Vitesse (midtable side in the Dutch league) to become one of the best holding midfielders in Europe.

That said, Oscar still being young doesn't help the team right now. He's a starter and should be judged for his performances like any other starter. I just think plenty are too critical. The likes of Isco, James, Gotze, Barkley, Coutinho, Draxler all deal with inconsistency, they would have their issues as well.

[yuvala 2,167]

  On 19/01/2015 at 14:37, lito said:

Well its not really fair given how we're playing..

But yes he's been better than Mata this season probably.

[Barbara 15,149]

  On 19/01/2015 at 19:18, yuvala said:

Well its not really fair given how we're playing..

But yes he's been better than Mata this season probably.

What do you mean not fair based on how we're playing? I can't understand...

[The Skipper 20,593]

  On 19/01/2015 at 16:08, Barbara said:

That's the very definition of nitpicking imo. Especially because every player is entitled to mistakes. It's when something becomes a routine that the problem starts.

Oscar's sloppiness in his passing isn't something new at all though.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,916]

  On 19/01/2015 at 19:18, yuvala said:

Well its not really fair given how we're playing..

But yes he's been better than Mata this season probably.

  On 19/01/2015 at 21:01, Barbara said:

What do you mean not fair based on how we're playing? I can't understand...

yuvala will correct me if I'm wrong but his point seems to be that Oscar is playing for a better team and therefore it's reasonable to expect his numbers to be a little elevated by that fact. Or, to put it another way, it would be reasonable to expect Oscar's numbers to be a little less good if he were playing for Man Utd this season instead of for Chelsea. yuvala is therefore arguing that comparing Mata's numbers with Oscar's is not really judging the two players on a level playing field.

[Barbara 15,149]

  On 19/01/2015 at 21:59, The Skipper said:

Oscar's sloppiness in his passing isn't something new at all though.

never said the opposite, but you - alongside others - were harsh on him for picking up five incomplete passes in the second half and calling him sloppy in those 45 minutes when the team as a whole relaxed. Still he almost scored another beautiful goal, took part in some of our best attacks in the second and would surely score had Surely not done it before him... Harsh in my book.

To each their own, but I think there has been a lot of nitpicking with Oscar. It seems the kid never wins. Few people mention and give him credit and praise for scoring very early opening goals (I guess it was his third or forth this season), or for scoring the opening goal regardless of when, or for having a combined of 13 goals and assists in 19 matches in the league, 8 of which in the last 9.

All I see is this thread being on fire when he's bad - and I admit he goes through really bad spans - and either quiet (apart from the usual Oscar 'fans') or nitpicking on what he doesn't do when he does well or at least gets himself in the scoresheet. Go back the last pages and nobody is detracting from their assessments, nobody apart from the usual members are giving him credit. It seems like most people purposefully ignore him when he does well, but make sure to pop when he doesn't and are also supportive and argumentative on the nitpicking.

When he has a bad match people will make sure to leave a post saying so. The pages of this thread tells this story, not me. He is far from being consistent enough or the end product, but he's far from being as useless as many of you claim. Even you changed your instance about his future.

I'm not against criticizing him, it's just the tone in this thread is harsh in general given his age and his contributions (even if they aren't consistent enough).

  On 19/01/2015 at 22:08, OhForAGreavsie said:

yuvala will correct me if I'm wrong but his point seems to be that Oscar is playing for a better team and therefore it's reasonable to expect his numbers to be a little elevated by that fact. Or, to put it another way, it would be reasonable to expect Oscar's numbers to be a little less good if he were playing for Man Utd this season instead of for Chelsea. yuvala is therefore arguing that comparing Mata's numbers with Oscar's is not really judging the two players on a level playing field.

That's not fair. Not when 1) most of Oscar's goals are more an individual effort than a collective one; 2) a player like Mata is in the team supposedly to bail them out of the jail, he has the skills for that; 3) until a couple of weeks ago Oscar was called the weak link of the team.

Makes no sense to say Mata can't deliver better in a team where he serves Rooney, van Persie and Falcao. Or is served by di María, Rooney and others. For all the worship here about him being a little genius, he shouldn't be so dependable on others to have better stats as his main job is to create. He is the guy who creates, not the guy others create for him. Not uncommon to see all kind of excuses made for Mata.

As usual, double standards, but I'm not saying you don't have a right to think like that.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

  On 19/01/2015 at 16:55, LDN Blue said:

I do want to clarify my position on Oscar, because I do think reflecting back I was harsh on the boy.

First of, I'm a fan of his general play. He can be a valuable asset when his concentration spans for the entire game, not just when we're in need of goals but even once those goals have gone in - to maintain our advantage over opponents.

His goals and assists this season can't be dismissed by any means. I saw someone said earlier that Willian gets more praise than Oscar on TC, well I don't believe that for a second because if you go on his thread there's countless members talking about a frustration with lack of end-product. Oscar is above Willian, because of the end product and all-round play IMO.

What is frustrating about Oscar is there isn't a consistent run of good performances by him. He goes through spells of being anonymous or in exceptionally rare cases (Newcastle) a liability. I want him to do well, he's only 23 and has played a hell of a lot of football since being signed for both club and country. But it's no real surprise that Mourinho has opted for Cesc as the number 10 as opposed to Oscar in big games. One could look at that as Mourinho prefers another defensive-minded MF in such games, but I largely think it's more about Oscar's contribution.

How could you say that when for the most part his contributions have been good? We've been playing 4-3-3 in our big away games not 4-2-3-1. Against City we started with Willian, Ramires and Cesc with willian coming inside and allowing Ramires to leak out in a box to box role.

Willian is the better counter attacker because of his pace not because of his quality.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

  On 19/01/2015 at 23:08, Chelsea Legend 11 said:

How could you say that when for the most part his contributions have been good? We've been playing 4-3-3 in our big away games not 4-2-3-1. Against City we started with Willian, Ramires and Cesc with willian coming inside and allowing Ramires to leak out in a box to box role.

Willian is the better counter attacker because of his pace not because of his quality.

Because of his quality? Need I remind you of Willian's lack of end product? I do think he's a stop-gap to be honest, until Mou finds a more suitable RW. But I do get what you mean about his role in a 4-3-3 set up.

And when I mean contribution, I should've used a better word albeit, I mean how he responds to playing in such environments. He's not trusted by Mourinho, that's reflected in those tactical changes.

[Barbara 15,149]

  On 19/01/2015 at 23:20, LDN Blue said:

Because of his quality? Need I remind you of Willian's lack of end product? I do think he's a stop-gap to be honest, until Mou finds a more suitable RW. But I do get what you mean about his role in a 4-3-3 set up.

And when I mean contribution, I should've used a better word albeit, I mean how he responds to playing in such environments. He's not trusted by Mourinho, that's reflected in those tactical changes.

I guess you misunderstood his post. He said Willian is used NOT because of his quality (therefore lack of it), but because of his pace - which is more suitable to counter-attack (which we tend to play in big matches away from home)

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

In my opinion Oscar is at his best when as a team we move the ball quickly, he is probably one of our better players when it comes to passing the ball around with pace. In games where the tempo is slow and we can't play one touch football he struggles to get a foothold in the game but at the same time we all love it when the team plays at a faster tempo.

For me he is integral to a team that want to play possession based football, not because he is brilliant on the ball but because his tactical nous make it possible for us to play fluidly.

He hasn't had to be as effective in winning the ball back because Matic has been nothing short of the best in the world, winning close to 4 tackles a game! So he's not needed defensively other than in the press(which he is fantastic at when not tired) the aspects of his game that get exposed are the slower games where we need him to be a functioning conduit between Costa, Hazard and Cesc.

I love Oscar's game and know he can still grow as a player but some of the shtick he gets from game to game is unwarranted for a player who is 23 and performing a variety of tasks well. You put Isco, Mata, Eriksen, Coutinho, Ozil, Nasri(players I put in a similar bracket to Oscar) in our team and ask them to win 2 tackles a game, test the keeper 3 times a game, score goals and assist goals, press the opposition when out of possession AND do it week in and week out I think A LOT of you here would seriously be disappointed at how poorly they fair.

[Chelsea Legend 11 4,062]

  On 19/01/2015 at 23:20, LDN Blue said:

Because of his quality? Need I remind you of Willian's lack of end product? I do think he's a stop-gap to be honest, until Mou finds a more suitable RW. But I do get what you mean about his role in a 4-3-3 set up.

And when I mean contribution, I should've used a better word albeit, I mean how he responds to playing in such environments. He's not trusted by Mourinho, that's reflected in those tactical changes.

You clearly have misread my post. Read it again.

Its hard to say that, I think it comes down to tactics. Who can do the job Mou needs for the team... Lets be honest here Jose thinks defense first before offense. Our most effective set up last year was with Luiz, Matic and Ramires in the midfield and with Willian and Hazard on the flank for pace.

[LDN Blue 7,903]

  On 19/01/2015 at 23:35, Barbara said:

I guess you misunderstood his post. He said Willian is used NOT because of his quality (therefore lack of it), but because of his pace - which is more suitable to counter-attack (which we tend to play in big matches away from home)

  On 19/01/2015 at 23:41, Chelsea Legend 11 said:

You clearly have misread my post. Read it again.

Its hard to say that, I think it comes down to tactics. Who can do the job Mou needs for the team... Lets be honest here Jose thinks defense first before offense. Our most effective set up last year was with Luiz, Matic and Ramires in the midfield and with Willian and Hazard on the flank for pace.

Apologies, I re-read and understood what you intended

But yeah I agree with you on your premise on that post. I do have to reiterate, I do like Oscar.. At the age of 23 he still has a while to go before we can say he's at his peak. It's the consistency that I have the most frustrations with him.

In Costa, Hazard, Fabregas, Oscar and Willian we do have a formidable attack. As you said Chelsea Legend 11, it depends on Mourinho's tactics. Though I do find it hard to look past Mourinho overlooking Oscar in the 'big games'. The good thing, it doesn't look like Oscar has frustrated Mourinho, which means he must be responding to Mou's instructions in training.

I don't think it's long before we see Oscar step it up to the level we'd expect from a player occupying the position he plays. I still think we did right by selling Mata and making Oscar one of the focal points of our attack.

[OhForAGreavsie 5,916]

  On 19/01/2015 at 22:45, Barbara said:

never said the opposite, but you - alongside others - were harsh on him for picking up five incomplete passes in the second half and calling him sloppy in those 45 minutes when the team as a whole relaxed. Still he almost scored another beautiful goal, took part in some of our best attacks in the second and would surely score had Surely not done it before him... Harsh in my book.

To each their own, but I think there has been a lot of nitpicking with Oscar. It seems the kid never wins. Few people mention and give him credit and praise for scoring very early opening goals (I guess it was his third or forth this season), or for scoring the opening goal regardless of when, or for having a combined of 13 goals and assists in 19 matches in the league, 8 of which in the last 9.

All I see is this thread being on fire when he's bad - and I admit he goes through really bad spans - and either quiet (apart from the usual Oscar 'fans') or nitpicking on what he doesn't do when he does well or at least gets himself in the scoresheet. Go back the last pages and nobody is detracting from their assessments, nobody apart from the usual members are giving him credit. It seems like most people purposefully ignore him when he does well, but make sure to pop when he doesn't and are also supportive and argumentative on the nitpicking.

When he has a bad match people will make sure to leave a post saying so. The pages of this thread tells this story, not me. He is far from being consistent enough or the end product, but he's far from being as useless as many of you claim. Even you changed your instance about his future.

I'm not against criticizing him, it's just the tone in this thread is harsh in general given his age and his contributions (even if they aren't consistent enough).

That's not fair. Not when 1) most of Oscar's goals are more an individual effort than a collective one; 2) a player like Mata is in the team supposedly to bail them out of the jail, he has the skills for that; 3) until a couple of weeks ago Oscar was called the weak link of the team.

Makes no sense to say Mata can't deliver better in a team where he serves Rooney, van Persie and Falcao. Or is served by di María, Rooney and others. For all the worship here about him being a little genius, he shouldn't be so dependable on others to have better stats as his main job is to create. He is the guy who creates, not the guy others create for him. Not uncommon to see all kind of excuses made for Mata.

As usual, double standards, but I'm not saying you don't have a right to think like that.

The criticism of Oscar does not stem from his having a poor 45 minutes. In fact I specifically said, after his horrendous first half vs Newcastle, that it would be wrong to judge him on such a display. If people mentioned 45 minutes against this team, or that team, it was only as yet another example of his poor play and not as a sole reason to be unhappy with him.

The criticism exists because the sloppiness has been going on for as long as Oscar has been here. At first it was not commented on because everyone, quite rightly, wanted to be supportive and give him time. He benefited from a honeymoon period during which people were determined to be pleased with everything he did well, and equally determined to forgive, ignore or excuse, everything he did not do well. Honeymoons don't last forever however, and eventually the situation could no longer be avoided. It was then that the negative observations became more frequent and then too that it became fashionable to blame Oscar's poor displays on tiredness.

It seems unlikely that you and I will ever agree on the reason for Oscar's sloppiness, we perhaps won't even agree about precisely how long it's been going on, but we can agree, can't we, that it's been a good while now?

As for the Mata comparison, I guess @yuvala is the best person to defend the point he was making.