Eden Hazard

[Belgiannutt 3,201]

31 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

Anyone has video with all his touches vs huddersfield?

Be quick though as all the other have been taken down and this one will likely be taken down aswell. 

[The Skipper 20,593]

On 08/12/2017 at 10:07 PM, BlueLyon said:

No, fancy haircuts, big cars, fuckboy attitude, swag and instagram pics give recognition. 

The fact mbappe ended 7th and Hazard 19th last season in balon dor, sums it all up. 

Welcome to 20s of 21 century. Performances on the pitch and off the pitch good guy mentality are overrated. 

Mbappé generally had a better season than Hazard last season though.  

The guys in defence that usually get recognition (Ramos, Bonucci, Silva, Pique etc.) literally do none of the things you described...

Like @Fernando said, Azpi doesn’t get global recognition because he hasn’t really shined at the highest stages of the global platform (CL). He gets recognised in the PL though. Gary Neville and Carragher for example always call him the best 1v1 defender in the league. 

[Jase 43,479]

9 hours ago, The Skipper said:

Mbappé generally had a better season than Hazard last season though.  

The guys in defence that usually get recognition (Ramos, Bonucci, Silva, Pique etc.) literally do none of the things you described...

Like @Fernando said, Azpi doesn’t get global recognition because he hasn’t really shined at the highest stages of the global platform (CL). He gets recognised in the PL though. Gary Neville and Carragher for example always call him the best 1v1 defender in the league. 

Would argue that the Premier League is just as big as the Champions League, if not even bigger, given the money involved and most countries around the world have access to it. Azpi isn't getting as much recognition as he should because he's not a flashy player, doesn't do anything outrageous to stand out (in a good way) and he plays for Chelsea FC. Put him at United and you'll be hearing pundits, journalists etc calling him the best defender in the world.

[BlueLyon 9,359]

12 hours ago, The Skipper said:

Mbappé generally had a better season than Hazard last season though.  

The guys in defence that usually get recognition (Ramos, Bonucci, Silva, Pique etc.) literally do none of the things you described...

Like @Fernando said, Azpi doesn’t get global recognition because he hasn’t really shined at the highest stages of the global platform (CL). He gets recognised in the PL though. Gary Neville and Carragher for example always call him the best 1v1 defender in the league. 

Oh come on. Mbappe didnt have as good season as Eden last year 😂 

I love watching Mbappe, he is great already, but Eden raises the level. He is among very top players in europe, Mbappe still has to get there. 

Mbappe got all that hype in CL and it went like a train...he is fantastic yes, but it all got blown out.

In no world are Ramos, Silva, Bonucci...better defenders than Chiellini, Barzagli, Azpilicueta, Godin,...yet they get more recognition because of their fancy football style. 

Saying defender is good when he can pass well and defend average is like saying striker is good for his link up and not finishing. Defenders defend and strikers have to score goals. Period. Being versatile is just bonus, but not requirement. 

All in all the balondor just turned into a joke popularity contest whatever way you turn it...

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

12 hours ago, The Skipper said:

Mbappé generally had a better season than Hazard last season though.  

The guys in defence that usually get recognition (Ramos, Bonucci, Silva, Pique etc.) literally do none of the things you described...

Like @Fernando said, Azpi doesn’t get global recognition because he hasn’t really shined at the highest stages of the global platform (CL). He gets recognised in the PL though. Gary Neville and Carragher for example always call him the best 1v1 defender in the league. 

He certainly did not. Based on what? CL success maybe because Hazard didn't play in it last season. But there's no doubt Hazard was hands down the better player in his own league for instance

http://www.squawka.com/football-player-rankings#performance-score#player-stats#top-5-european-leagues|season-2016/2017#all-teams#all-player-positions#16#43#0#0#90#12/08/2016#28/05/2017#season#1#all-matches#total#desc#total 

Sites like Squawka provide at least a certain degree of objectivity in determining the best players in Europe every season. These algorithms consider everthing. Goals, assists, key passes/chances created, possession score, defensive contribution and efficiency not just subjective opinions. Unsurprisingly Hazard was 2nd to only Messi in 2016/17 and 3rd I think to Messi and CR7 in 2014/15.

 

[The Skipper 20,593]

10 hours ago, BlueLyon said:

Oh come on. Mbappe didnt have as good season as Eden last year 😂 

I love watching Mbappe, he is great already, but Eden raises the level. He is among very top players in europe, Mbappe still has to get there. 

Mbappe got all that hype in CL and it went like a train...he is fantastic yes, but it all got blown out.

Oh, yes he did. Monaco’s main man during crunch time in the season. Won Ligue 1 and dropped amazing CL performances against top teams. Eden just won the PL last year, and Eden is at an automatic disadvantage with him not participating in the CL. 

9 hours ago, MrExcalibur100 said:

He certainly did not. Based on what? CL success maybe because Hazard didn't play in it last season. But there's no doubt Hazard was hands down the better player in his own league for instance

If you want to bring statistics into it then we can look at the numbers: Mbappé had 24 goals and 8 assists in 41 appearances (15 coming on as a substitute). Eden had a great year, yes, but this was Mbappé’s break out season at 18. An 18 year old performing like that in the league and the CL - last time we saw that with a player was Messi (UCL performance vs. CFC where he announced himself to the world). He performed just as well in his league plus has his CL performances to count on which Eden doesn’t have.

I don’t really think you should use Squawka as proof that Eden was definitely better. Those stats only use league games, not the CL where Mbappé’s best performances happened. That algorithm also has Dries Mertens and Insigne (both good players obviously but still) as the 3rd and 4th best players last season.

Don’t conflate better player with better season. I’m not saying Mbappé is the better player, I’m saying that he had a better season. 

Just like I can say this season so far, Eden is having a better season than Mbappé, I’m saying that Mbappé had a better, more iconic season than Eden last year.

[cfcs most wanted 657]

7 minutes ago, The Skipper said:

Oh, yes he did. Monaco’s main man during crunch time in the season. Won Ligue 1 and dropped amazing CL performances against top teams. Eden just won the PL last year, and Eden is at an automatic disadvantage with him not participating in the CL. 

If you want to bring statistics into it then we can look at the numbers: Mbappé had 24 goals and 8 assists in 41 appearances (15 coming on as a substitute). Eden had a great year, yes, but this was Mbappé’s break out season at 18. An 18 year old performing like that in the league and the CL - last time we saw that with a player was Messi (UCL performance vs. CFC where he announced himself to the world). He performed just as well in his league plus has his CL performances to count on which Eden doesn’t have.

I don’t really think you should use Squawka as proof that Eden was definitely better. Those stats only use league games, not the CL where Mbappé’s best performances happened.

Don’t conflate better player with better season. I’m not saying Mbappé is the better player, I’m saying that he had a better season. 

Just like I can say this season so far, Eden is having a better season than Mbappé, I’m saying that Mbappé had a better, more iconic season than Eden last year.

Seriously you wanna bring in the fact that Hazard scored less goals  not everyone in the team is their to score goals. He's the sole creative force for the team. Why are you evaluating him on something he just isn't meant to be doing?

[The Skipper 20,593]

Just now, cfcs most wanted said:

Seriously you wanna bring in the fact that Hazard scored less goals  not everyone in the team is their to score goals. He's the sole creative force for the team. Why are you evaluating him on something he just isn't meant to be doing?

I didn’t say that at all, you’re assuming stuff and putting words in my mouth. Read the post carefully. 

[BlueLyon 9,359]

18 hours ago, The Skipper said:

Oh, yes he did. Monaco’s main man during crunch time in the season. Won Ligue 1 and dropped amazing CL performances against top teams. Eden just won the PL last year, and Eden is at an automatic disadvantage with him not participating in the CL. 

If you want to bring statistics into it then we can look at the numbers: Mbappé had 24 goals and 8 assists in 41 appearances (15 coming on as a substitute). Eden had a great year, yes, but this was Mbappé’s break out season at 18. An 18 year old performing like that in the league and the CL - last time we saw that with a player was Messi (UCL performance vs. CFC where he announced himself to the world). He performed just as well in his league plus has his CL performances to count on which Eden doesn’t have.

I don’t really think you should use Squawka as proof that Eden was definitely better. Those stats only use league games, not the CL where Mbappé’s best performances happened. That algorithm also has Dries Mertens and Insigne (both good players obviously but still) as the 3rd and 4th best players last season.

Don’t conflate better player with better season. I’m not saying Mbappé is the better player, I’m saying that he had a better season. 

Just like I can say this season so far, Eden is having a better season than Mbappé, I’m saying that Mbappé had a better, more iconic season than Eden last year.

Winning PL is more difficult than winning Ligue 1. Its definately bigger achievement here. Eden didnt even play in CL, so we cant hardly compare their performances there, but Mbappe had excellent CL campaign indeed. 

However simply put, considering they can both play in same position, who would you prefer? 

I would definately not have Mbappe ahead of Eden last season nor this season in Chelsea. Mbappe can score more indeed, but Eden is allround playmaker, dribbler and very decent scorer too. 

And yes Mbappe was 18 last season. If you throw that out, then compare him to other 18 year olds where he easily wins in quality. But when you compare who is best in the world, age has nothing to do with it. 18 or 32, if you are best you are best. Just because someone is younger, doesnt mean he gets different criteria to be judged on. It just tells he has higher potential for the future. 

Hands down last season Cr, Messi, Neymar and Hazard were in league of their own, much like this season but with CR in decline. Then come the likes of Mbappe, Lewandowski, Modric etc. 

Mbappe has serious potential though. But his ability is to be extremly skilled goalscorer and when he bangs 30 a season, then we will talk he fullfilled his potential, and be compared to worlds best. 

Right now, Eden is still ways ahead, as are some other players. Its kind of sad he gets so little recognition even among Chelsea fans. Mbappe considering he is 18 had awesome season, but when comparing him to worlds best, they do it every season, almost every game. 

 

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

19 hours ago, The Skipper said:

Oh, yes he did. Monaco’s main man during crunch time in the season. Won Ligue 1 and dropped amazing CL performances against top teams. Eden just won the PL last year, and Eden is at an automatic disadvantage with him not participating in the CL. 

If you want to bring statistics into it then we can look at the numbers: Mbappé had 24 goals and 8 assists in 41 appearances (15 coming on as a substitute). Eden had a great year, yes, but this was Mbappé’s break out season at 18. An 18 year old performing like that in the league and the CL - last time we saw that with a player was Messi (UCL performance vs. CFC where he announced himself to the world). He performed just as well in his league plus has his CL performances to count on which Eden doesn’t have.

I don’t really think you should use Squawka as proof that Eden was definitely better. Those stats only use league games, not the CL where Mbappé’s best performances happened. That algorithm also has Dries Mertens and Insigne (both good players obviously but still) as the 3rd and 4th best players last season.

Don’t conflate better player with better season. I’m not saying Mbappé is the better player, I’m saying that he had a better season. 

Just like I can say this season so far, Eden is having a better season than Mbappé, I’m saying that Mbappé had a better, more iconic season than Eden last year.

Late response @The Skipper my friend.

I'm not sure why you're bringing the CL into it since Hazard didn't even play there. Of course Mbappe had an iconic season. He played for the best goalscoring team in Europe last season. Put Hazard on that Monaco team of last season and this is not debatable. 

I'm also not sure why you're downplaying sites like Squawka. I think these sites give a much fairer representation of a players' season than subjective opinions. Mbappe wasn't even a starting XI player in his team till Christmas/January and Monaco were still the dominant team in France. There were a lot of goalscorers in that team. Falcao, Germain, Lemar even. Bernado Silva.. Hazard along with Fabregas were our only real creative forces last season and Fabregas was barely even a real consistent factor as Conte didn't trust him so it was mainly Hazard. Costa also didn't show up last season while Falcao had one of his best seasons in recent memory. Hazard had way more responsibility to be good and dominated in most of the PL games he played (or was allowed to play by the coaches tactics)

Hazard created more chances than any other player in Europe's top 5 leagues last season.  https://www.whoscored.com/Articles/pIE68Mj2lU6L-wBGAJVziw/Show/European-Team-of-the-Season-ST-Eden-Hazard-(Chelsea) If he were playing for a more free-scoring team or if his teammates (i.e Costa, Willian) converted his chances to goals he could easily have been in double figure assists. Hazard only had 2 assists to Costa last season. This season he has 7 already so he's clearly more comfortable playing next to Morata and (or) through the middle.

 He was statistically the best dribbler in Europe last season . http://www.football-observatory.com/IMG/sites/b5wp/2016/185/en/ This is not just aesthestically pleasing but as you know this allows him to create space for his teammates and himself when he's able to dribble past players. It's difficult to quantify with stats how important an effective dribbler is to a team. Look at Zaha for instance. It's not a coincidence that last season when he developed into one of Europe's most effective volume dribblers, his status as a top winger became visible to everyone.

It's very impressive being the most creative and best dribbling winger in Europe. This is why sites like Whoscored and Squawka are relevant to such debates. If it were just about subjective opinions then it's meaningless. Everyone has an opinion that can be argued.

It depends on what the argument is. If you say Mbappe had a more iconic season (in your words) then I'll have to agree. His team reached the semi-finals of the Champions league. Hazard didn't even play the Champions league. So it's a bit of a moot point to bring up in the 1st place. 

However if you're debating if Mbappe had a better season including league football then I'll have to strongly disagree. Mbappe was not even a starter over Germain till January (IIRC) and Monace were still the dominant team in France and topping the table, scoring for fun. Can you imagine what Chelsea will look if Hazard was not a starter will January last season? We would have struggled for top 4 (!) And don't discount what stats based algorithm sites have to say. Insigne and Mertens were superb last season playing for one of Europe's best teams. Mertens had a better season in the league last season than Mbappe. 

 

 

[The Skipper 20,593]

36 minutes ago, BlueLyon said:

Winning PL is more difficult than winning Ligue 1. Its definately bigger achievement here. Eden didnt even play in CL, so we cant hardly compare their performances there, but Mbappe had excellent CL campaign indeed. 

However simply put, considering they can both play in same position, who would you prefer? 

I would definately not have Mbappe ahead of Eden last season nor this season in Chelsea. Mbappe can score more indeed, but Eden is allround playmaker, dribbler and very decent scorer too. 

And yes Mbappe was 18 last season. If you throw that out, then compare him to other 18 year olds where he easily wins in quality. But when you compare who is best in the world, age has nothing to do with it. 18 or 32, if you are best you are best. Just because someone is younger, doesnt mean he gets different criteria to be judged on. It just tells he has higher potential for the future. 

Hands down last season Cr, Messi, Neymar and Hazard were in league of their own, much like this season but with CR in decline. Then come the likes of Mbappe, Lewandowski, Modric etc. 

Mbappe has serious potential though. But his ability is to be extremly skilled goalscorer and when he bangs 30 a season, then we will talk he fullfilled his potential, and be compared to worlds best. 

Right now, Eden is still ways ahead, as are some other players. Its kind of sad he gets so little recognition even among Chelsea fans. Mbappe considering he is 18 had awesome season, but when comparing him to worlds best, they do it every season, almost every game. 

You don't have to explain that Eden is the better player between the two. I am literally just comparing the individual seasons both players had. You're getting confused. I'm literally just stating that Mbappé had a better season last year because he also had excellent CL performances.

I literally said this:

Don’t conflate better player with better season. I’m not saying Mbappé is the better player, I’m saying that he had a better season.

Also, you're diminishing the fact that Monaco beat PSG to the title... I know Ligue Un isn't PL level but Monaco's feat last season was impressive.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

1 minute ago, The Skipper said:

You don't have to explain that Eden is the better player between the two. I am literally just comparing the individual seasons both players had. You're getting confused. I'm literally just stating that Mbappé had a better season last year because he also had excellent CL performances.

I literally said this:

 

 

Also, you're diminishing the fact that Monaco beat PSG to the title... I know Ligue Un isn't PL level but Monaco's feat last season was impressive.

You didn't read my post Skip. It was all about both players' seasons. You're better than this.Read it carefully. 

[The Skipper 20,593]

1 minute ago, MrExcalibur100 said:

You didn't read my post Skip. It was all about both players' seasons. You're better than this.Read it carefully. 

I'm literally just getting to it now. Give me a few mins to read it and reply.

[manpe 10,861]

1 hour ago, BlueLyon said:

Winning PL is more difficult than winning Ligue 1. Its definately bigger achievement here.

You have to take into consideration that the last time Monaco won it was in 2000 and they had PSG to contend with, a team far more dominant in their league than anybody in the PL has ever been. Their season was a bigger achievement than ours.

[The Skipper 20,593]

1 minute ago, MrExcalibur100 said:

It depends on what the argument is. If you say Mbappe had a more iconic season (in your words) then I'll have to agree. His team reached the semi-finals of the Champions league. Hazard didn't even play the Champions league. So it's a bit of a moot point to bring up in the 1st place. 

However if you're debating if Mbappe had a better season including league football then I'll have to strongly disagree. Mbappe was not even a starter over Germain till January (IIRC) and Monace were still the dominant team in France and topping the table, scoring for fun. Can you imagine what Chelsea will look if Hazard was not a starter will January last season? We would have struggled for top 4 (!) And don't discount what stats based algorithm sites have to say. Insigne and Mertens were superb last season playing for one of Europe's best teams. Mertens had a better season in the league last season than Mbappe. 

It isn't a moot point to bring up at all. We're looking at their overall season, that includes all competitions, so we're counting all performances. You can't just dismiss it because Hazard didn't play in it. 

You don't need to explain how good Hazard was last season either, I'm not saying he didn't have a great year. I'm not downplaying Hazard's season at all. But let's not rewrite history and pretend that Hazard didn't have any support whatsoever last year, come off that. He wasn't a one man band. He didn't carry us as much as he usually does last season in my opinion. Costa was arguably the best striker in the world for the first half of the season for us last year until he went AWOL. Kanté was arguably just as instrumental as Hazard too. Fabregas was superb off the bench too. 

Of course Mbappé wasn't a starter until January - not sure how that's a negative or detracts anything from his performances last season. He was still arguably their best player in the home stretch of securing that league title. Considering Monaco weren't favourites whatsoever for the title, considering the CL performances alongside his games in the league, I genuinely think Mbappé overall had a better season, yes. If we look at both of their league forms solely, you can definitely argue that Eden was better in the league (I agree) but I have to consider his CL performances.  

I understand the value of sites like Squawka and WhoScored but don't religiously accept what they've concluded as fact. Mertens and Insigne were great last year, I love Sarriball, but they didn't win even the title last year, so how can you have them as the third and fourth best players last season for example? My main point regarding that is that we shouldn't conclude stats as facts, that's another debate for another day though.

Maybe I place too much stock into the CL as a global platform on which a player performs, but its his CL performances that make his season better for me. That doesn't mean I rate him higher than Hazard or anything but Chelsea's 16/17 wasn't that impressive for me in general. It's close, but Mbappé edges it for me. For me, the more iconic the season the better. 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

13 minutes ago, The Skipper said:

It isn't a moot point to bring up at all. We're looking at their overall season, that includes all competitions, so we're counting all performances. You can't just dismiss it because Hazard didn't play in it. 

You don't need to explain how good Hazard was last season either, I'm not saying he didn't have a great year. I'm not downplaying Hazard's season at all. But let's not rewrite history and pretend that Hazard didn't have any support whatsoever last year, come off that. He wasn't a one man band. He didn't carry us as much as he usually does last season in my opinion. Costa was arguably the best striker in the world for the first half of the season for us last year until he went AWOL. Kanté was arguably just as instrumental as Hazard too. Fabregas was superb off the bench too. 

Of course Mbappé wasn't a starter until January - not sure how that's a negative or detracts anything from his performances last season. He was still arguably their best player in the home stretch of securing that league title. Considering Monaco weren't favourites whatsoever for the title, considering the CL performances alongside his games in the league, I genuinely think Mbappé overall had a better season, yes. If we look at both of their league forms solely, you can definitely argue that Eden was better in the league (I agree) but I have to consider his CL performances.  

I understand the value of sites like Squawka and WhoScored but don't religiously accept what they've concluded as fact. Mertens and Insigne were great last year, I love Sarriball, but they didn't win even the title last year, so how can you have them as the third and fourth best players last season for example? My main point regarding that is that we shouldn't conclude stats as facts, that's another debate for another day though.

Maybe I place too much stock into the CL as a global platform on which a player performs, but its his CL performances that make his season better for me. That doesn't mean I rate him higher than Hazard or anything but Chelsea's 16/17 wasn't that impressive for me in general. It's close, but Mbappé edges it for me. For me, the more iconic the season the better. 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

If you're going to include CL performances in this then it's no longer a fair or even a reasonable debate. It becomes all the more tedious to make a comparison. According to my above post Hazard was the most creative and best dribbling winger in Europe last season on league performances. According to yours Mbappe was one of the best players in the UCL last season. 

[The Skipper 20,593]

35 minutes ago, MrExcalibur100 said:

If you're going to include CL performances in this then it's no longer a fair or even a reasonable debate. It becomes all the more tedious to make a comparison. According to my above post Hazard was the most creative and best dribbling winger in Europe last season on league performances. According to yours Mbappe was one of the best players in the UCL last season. 

Funny thing is, neither argument is really incorrect. Last thing I'll say - Mbappé was one of the best players in the CL - and in his league (Finished YPOTY + Golden Boy and in TOTS). But like you said, at this point it's just become a tedious argument.

[BlueLion. 21,491]

Don't like him as the false 9 in a 3-4-3, I have to say. Doesn't bring anything close to the best out of him, he just becomes a deep-lying backheel merchant. Far more effective wider, or as one of the two in a 3-5-2.