Politics & Stuff

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

I am not a Muslim but Hadith's (sayings of Muhammad) found in Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, Al-Sughra/Al-Nasa'i are commonly understood to be one step below the Qu'ran as the authentic teaching of God but in this case through the divinely inspired words of Muhammad. You seem to have an interest in the middle east and possibly Islam too, so I ask you to pick up a copy of the Qu'ran and try and read it without the Hadith commentary that maybe along side it and see how much you can understand of it. Maybe you could tell us why Abu Lahib is suffering hell worse than Dante's nightmares without using Hadith....

I have a 1,600 page Ali Unal (sadly is very westernized) Qu'ran to go with my unannotated Pickthall Qu'ran and you can't escape the Hadith/Tasfir if you want to explain what is going on in the Qu'ran as it moves from place to place and moment to moment only to find them sura's later in the book.

These words that you believe are only what extreme Muslim's take for granted is unfortunately not the case. If a similar Hadith is found in both Bukhari and Muslim then it is deemed to be the highest form of remembrance of what Muhammad said through the chain of Isnad (testimony) and is called Sahih (authentic saying of Muhammad).

As for a Palestinian genocide conspired by the Israeli state, where is your proof? Are they killing them in secret or are they starving them to death?

You should also pick up the Reliance of the Traveler as well. It's pure evil.

[dUMB 189]

I am not a Muslim but Hadith's (sayings of Muhammad) found in Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawood, al-Tirmidhi, Al-Sughra/Al-Nasa'i are commonly understood to be one step below the Qu'ran as the authentic teaching of God but in this case through the divinely inspired words of Muhammad. You seem to have an interest in the middle east and possibly Islam too, so I ask you to pick up a copy of the Qu'ran and try and read it without the Hadith commentary that maybe along side it and see how much you can understand of it. Maybe you could tell us why Abu Lahib is suffering hell worse than Dante's nightmares without using Hadith....

I have a 1,600 page Ali Unal (sadly is very westernized) Qu'ran to go with my unannotated Pickthall Qu'ran and you can't escape the Hadith/Tasfir if you want to explain what is going on in the Qu'ran as it moves from place to place and moment to moment only to find them sura's later in the book.

These words that you believe are only what extreme Muslim's take for granted is unfortunately not the case. If a similar Hadith is found in both Bukhari and Muslim then it is deemed to be the highest form of remembrance of what Muhammad said through the chain of Isnad (testimony) and is called Sahih (authentic saying of Muhammad).

As for a Palestinian genocide conspired by the Israeli state, where is your proof? Are they killing them in secret or are they starving them to death?

I can't argue with you about Qu'ran (or their other books) because I dont know a lot about it.

But for the bolded part: ARE YOU SERIOUS? How would you call all those killings?

I will put some links for you here, maybe you'll get the picture

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/11/18/obama-responds-to-jerusalem-synagogue-attack-too-many-palestinians-have-died/

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/how-many-palestinians-been-kil-2014726131843576945.html

http://electronicintifada.net/content/invisible-killings-israels-daily-toll-palestinian-children/4263

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/BE07C80CDA4579468525734800500272

[DCS1984 28]

You should also pick up the Reliance of the Traveler as well. It's pure evil.

Perhaps to be honest, it is hard enough to try and study the Qu'ran without feeling depressed with its contents with going to hadith or summaries of how to live in the 630's today.

Of course we could all read Karen Armstrong versions of these books and see what we think............

[CHOULO19 24,332]

I have to thank you for your work in getting my book to the attention of the mods here but what you are advocating is murder.

Someone who fires a rocket does not have the right to judge the lives he or she will take. With Hamas' rockets, there is no accurate targeting system, they can land without precision and often land on Palestinian men, women and children. The person who fires that rocket has never met them when he or she injures them or kills them whether they are Palestinian/Israeli or from what ever country/faith/race.

When you have people who will gladly love death more than they love life then you have to wonder what has put them into this mindset. Do they rationalize what they take, someone's brother/sister/mother/father? Or are they just the sons of apes (7.166, 2.65, 5.60) or the successors to the Philistines who have no rights?

I personally believe both sides want peace but only on their terms, Israel does recognize the Palestinian state but the Palestinian state does not. You only have to look at the pre-amble to the Hamas Charter to understand why.

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors."

I don't know what will ever happen in this conflict, it's crazy to think that I was standing only yards away from where the murders took place this time last year.

One day I hope they find peace. Soon.

You are most welcome, but that does not affect the manner of the discussion here. At least, I hope it does not. I never like 'shy' discussions where everyone is lying about what they truly believe.

No offence to your principles, but they are very easy to say all the way from Scotland. I live in Lebanon and I remember a time before 2000 when the Israeli occupation army and its agents here would kidnap anyone they want, kill whoever they want, take whatever land they want and no one in Israel or the world would give a shit. Only local news would report it. The rockets of the Lebanese resistance created what is called "a balance of terror" and now they don't dare make a single step inside Lebanese land. So, the rockets are an effective and relatively less violent way of resistance.

Go live a single month in the shoes of a Gazan, a West Banker or even an Arab Israeli, then you can judge those who fire the rockets.

By the way, most of the Hamas rockets (short and medium range) now are directed ones. Only the long range ones are not. This is evident in this last battle in the summer where the majority of targets were barracks and military structures. That is why only 2-3 Israeli civilians were killed compared to about 70 soldiers (one of the civilians killed was even inside a military structure IIRC).

The ones that have less advanced weapons that are not directed are the other hundreds of factions of the Palestinian resistance. Because it is very easy to say it is only Hamas when it gives the whole resistance a certain Muslim extremist image. But that is not correct and many of the factions are secular. The struggle has absolutely nothing to do with either Islam or Judaism.

Btw, regarding the "philosophy of death", I'm not one to defend it, but you should really read and learn more why those people want to die. It is a mentality that has been greatly tarnished by modern Jihadism created by the US and UK, but originally, these people die to create a better life for their children and loved ones. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion and some of the earliest people who did suicide operations against Israel were secularists. In Lebanon, for example, members of the communist and Syrian social parties.

Regarding the charters, it would be very easy to bring up on the other hand the charter of the Lykude party that says that there can never be a Palestinian state, but that is not the point. Talking about charters, like trying to drag religions into the struggle, only means to distract from the main events and issues. I remember you said you've studied history? Then you should know who the aggressor is and who the oppressed are.

Finally, there can never be peace until Palestinians are regarded as human beings with equal rights as the Israelis.

Btw, everything that @MrExcalibur100 says in this thread is islamohobic propaganda as has been proven numerous times in this very thread. Kindly go back to wherever you disappear to whenever someone fully addresses your 'points' in this thread and you fail to come up with an answer

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

Perhaps to be honest, it is hard enough to try and study the Qu'ran without feeling depressed with its contents with going to hadith or summaries of how to live in the 630's today.

Of course we could all read Karen Armstrong versions of these books and see what we think............

Truly a vile woman she is. But I guess all the money she gets for writing her rubbish must be worth he soul.

[DCS1984 28]

I can't argue with you about Qu'ran (or their other books) because I dont know a lot about it.

But for the bolded part: ARE YOU SERIOUS? How would you call all those killings?

I will put some links for you here, maybe you'll get the picture

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/11/18/obama-responds-to-jerusalem-synagogue-attack-too-many-palestinians-have-died/

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/how-many-palestinians-been-kil-2014726131843576945.html

http://electronicintifada.net/content/invisible-killings-israels-daily-toll-palestinian-children/4263

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/BE07C80CDA4579468525734800500272

Have you read the articles you have posted?

1) True too many Palestinians have died, one is too many. He also says too many Israeli's have died. No mention of a genocide. He speaks of a conflict.

2) An Al-Jazeera editiorial and electronic-intifada site? Shall I post some from the Jerusalem times? No mention of the continued indiscriminate rocket firing at Israeli and when they miss their own position. Both are in the wrong in their actions but there is no evidence of a state sponsored genocide like you claimed.

3) Much better an impartial article. 5,315 deaths on both sides since 2000 . A state sponsored genocide? Where?

What you need to do is show proof that Israel is on purpose killing Palestinians in an effort to wipe them out. That is a genocide, that is what some Turks attempted to do to the Armenians or what happened in the Holocaust. What is happening in the Israel/Palestinian conflict is not the same.

Most of those killed in the conflict have been civilians not involved in the fighting. Deliberately targeting civilians is strictly prohibited in international law in all circumstances: a rule which applies to all combatants whether from government armed forces or members of militia groups. Persons protected under occupation law are considered as civilians except for that period of time that they may be actively engaged in hostilities or are carrying arms.

Amongst Israelis, 69% of those killed were civilians and 31% members of the IDF. The number of Israeli civilians killed, from attacks by Palestinian armed groups or individuals, has declined steadily, peaking in 2002 at an average of 22 deaths per month, and dropping markedly to an average of one civilian per month in 2007. 6/

In contrast to Israeli figures, however, Palestinian civilian fatalities have remained high. Palestinian civilians, killed by Israeli security forces, peaked with an average of 35 deaths per month in 2002, and again in 2004. In 2007 they dropped slightly to an average of ten civilian deaths per month.

It is considerably more difficult to distinguish precisely who amongst those Palestinians killed were civilians. Since September 2000, of Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces, whose status was known 7/, 59% were civilians and 41% were engaged in hostilities at the time of their death. - See more at: http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/BE07C80CDA4579468525734800500272#sthash.0wI0DUxo.dpuf

[dUMB 189]

So I pointed out a Hadith that shows the founder of a major world religion calls for genocide against the Jews and that's what you come up with?

(1) There's a "genocide" but the population of the "Palestinians" in Gaza keeps on growing by the year. Some genocide. And making allusions to an actual genocide in the Holocaust is a disgusting moral equivalence. The fact you think there's an actual "genocide" just shows how delusional your views are. The fact you claim to be a Christian is even more perplexing.

(2) So even when the Hamas charter quotes "some book" and uses "some book" to justify it's hatred of Jews and desire to exterminate them.

It's impossible to play down the role of this "some book" in the Isreali/Palestine conflict, the various sectarian conflicts in the ME and the JIHAD Islamic terrorists have waged on the non-Muslim world as a whole, including on Christians such as yourself.

You have some serious issues. To say something like that, and then say that my views are delusional is just crazy. Murder is a MURDER. If you have any moral, you'd know that.

Now I can put for example ''video - how the jews treat christians in israel''

and I could say: All the Jews are like that. That's what you are doing.

And, of course, I know that those on the video are only small percentage and extremes.

If you dont understand the difference between extreme muslims and those who want to live in peace, then I must say that you're an idiot.

[DCS1984 28]

You are most welcome, but that does not affect the manner of the discussion here. At least, I hope it does not. I never like 'shy' discussions where everyone is lying about what they truly believe.

No offence to your principles, but they are very easy to say all the way from Scotland. I live in Lebanon and I remember a time before 2000 when the Israeli occupation army and its agents here would kidnap anyone they want, kill whoever they want, take whatever land they want and no one in Israel or the world would give a shit. Only local news would report it. The rockets of the Lebanese resistance created what is called "a balance of terror" and now they don't dare make a single step inside Lebanese land. So, the rockets are an effective and relatively less violent way of resistance.

Go live a single month in the shoes of a Gazan, a West Banker or even an Arab Israeli, then you can judge those who fire the rockets.

By the way, most of the Hamas rockets (short and medium range) now are directed ones. Only the long range ones are not. This is evident in this last battle in the summer where the majority of targets were barracks and military structures. That is why only 2-3 Israeli civilians were killed compared to about 70 soldiers (one of the civilians killed was even inside a military structure IIRC).

The ones that have less advanced weapons that are not directed are the other hundreds of factions of the Palestinian resistance. Because it is very easy to say it is only Hamas when it gives the whole resistance a certain Muslim extremist image. But that is not correct and many of the factions are secular. The struggle has absolutely nothing to do with either Islam or Judaism.

Btw, regarding the "philosophy of death", I'm not one to defend it, but you should really read and learn more why those people want to die. It is a mentality that has been greatly tarnished by modern Jihadism created by the US and UK, but originally, these people die to create a better life for their children and loved ones. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion and some of the earliest people who did suicide operations against Israel were secularists. In Lebanon, for example, members of the communist and Syrian social parties.

Regarding the charters, it would be very easy to bring up on the other hand the charter of the Lykude party that says that there can never be a Palestinian state, but that is not the point. Talking about charters, like trying to drag religions into the struggle, only means to distract from the main events and issues. I remember you said you've studied history? Then you should know who the aggressor is and who the oppressed are.

Finally, there can never be peace until Palestinians are regarded as human beings with equal rights as the Israelis.

Btw, everything that @MrExcalibur100 says in this thread is islamohobic propaganda as has been proven numerous times in this very thread. Kindly go back to wherever you disappear to whenever someone fully addresses your 'points' in this thread and you fail to come up with an answer

Hey Choulo

Firstly I'd agree with you. Israeli's conduct with Lebanon has been greatly outside the the scope of modern diplomacy and being all the way in North Wales (was born in Scotland) we haven't got anything comparable. However remember there was a conflict between Hezbolah and Israel in 2006 after the withdrawal of Israeli forces due to continuing rocket attacks from southern Lebanon.

The struggle has everything do with the people on the ground on both sides. However for a solution to be found, Israel has to withdraw but can't as it doesn't have the assurances that attacks won't return from the territory from the controlling political party.

Don't forget about Israeli's missile Iron dome system, how many lives has it saved? You talk of the lack of casualties in the recent conflict but think how many there would have been otherwise? There were 4,954 rockets and mortar fired into Israel in July. Think how many would have died if it wasn't for that system? Do you really believe 4,954 of them were the aimed rockets?

I don't believe per say, that the conflict is an Islamic/Jewish conflict completely, the failure to able to resolve the conflict has strong foundations in there though. As has been written, Israel recognizes Palestine right to exist but it isn't reciprocated and for what reason? Is it political or is it religious?

As for Shahid, you know where the philosophy of death comes from in Islam. Do you believe those that commit the suicide attacks are doing out an attempt to help their fellow countrymen in the present or for something even greater?

Bukari Volume 9, Book 90, Number 333:

Abu Huraira said, Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hand my life is, I would love to fight in Allah's Cause and then get martyred and then resurrected (come to life) and then get martyred and then resurrected (come to life) and then get martyred, and then resurrected (come to life) and then get martyred and then resurrected (come to life)." Abu Huraira used to repeat those words three times and I testify to it with Allah's Oath.

I can't agree with you there is no way that by sacrificing yourself in a suicide attack can ever be the solution to your loved ones problems. Who has appointed you judge over the people you kill? Yes, I might be idealistic over this and far away but the point remains, if do what they did in Jerusalem yesterday then what have you achieved but murder? You haven't defended the honor of the Palestinian or the Al-Asqa Mosque you have killed people that you have no right to do.

Didn't know that about the Lkyude Party thanks, I'll look into that Have only had a quick look.

We can go through history to find the aggressor and defender, we would have very different views of the events of 632-642 in the Levant/Persia/Egypt for example which has a lot to do with this at the very start. Who is the aggressor in today's conflict, it can depend on what day it is.

Just to make sure, I fully support both states' right to exist and the complete equal rights of any citizen in both states.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

Btw, everything that @MrExcalibur100 says in this thread is islamohobic propaganda as has been proven numerous times in this very thread. Kindly go back to wherever you disappear to whenever someone fully addresses your 'points' in this thread and you fail to come up with an answer

Right back at ya, CHOULO19. You said it yourself. You live in Lebanon, an incredibly racist Jew-hating country, like majority of the Muslim world. You've been brainwashed to the tilt without even knowing it and it shines right through your posts on this particular thread. That's why you accuse me of "propaganda", it's all you can do.

All what one has to do is observe your highly delusional response to DCS1984 that is so far removed from reality and that can only come from the mind of a person completely far-removed from reality.

By the way, most of the Hamas rockets (short and medium range) now are directed ones. Only the long range ones are not. This is evident in this last battle in the summer where the majority of targets were barracks and military structures. That is why only 2-3 Israeli civilians were killed compared to about 70 soldiers

What's that supposed to mean? Is this a moral justification for firing thousands of rockets into civilian areas to kill and maim?

No offence to your principles, but they are very easy to say all the way from Scotland. I live in Lebanon and I remember a time before 2000 when the Israeli occupation army and its agents here would kidnap anyone they want, kill whoever they want, take whatever land they want and no one in Israel or the world would give a shit. Only local news would report it.

Prove it.

The rockets of the Lebanese resistance created what is called "a balance of terror" and now they don't dare make a single step inside Lebanese land. So, the rockets are an effective and relatively less violent way of resistance.

That's vile. You sir, have a dangerous mind and you don't even realize it.

The struggle has absolutely nothing to do with either Islam or Judaism.

The struggle (Jihad?) has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with Islam. The justification for Suicide (Jihadi) bombing is Islam. Have you read the Hamas charter? They quote from the Qur'an and they also quote the genocidal exortations of Muhammad concerning the Jews "judgement day shall not come till Muslims kill Jews". We see Hamas officials quoting the Qur'an as justification for their actions. That is pure ISLAM and blatant racism, the land issue is secondary. A catch 22 to the hatred of Jews in Islam.

tw, regarding the "philosophy of death", I'm not one to defend it, but you should really read and learn more why those people want to die.

"Read" and learn more? What justification can there ever be for that aside from Qur'an 9:111 and the promise of virgins in Paradis

It is a mentality that has been greatly tarnished by modern Jihadism created by the US and UK, but originally, these people die to create a better life for their children and loved ones. It has absolutely nothing to do with religion and some of the earliest people who did suicide operations against Israel were secularists.

Sure let's blame the West and the "Zionists" as always. They create everything fucked up about Islam. Always the blame game. Let's just ignore the fact that these people quote the Qur'an as justification for their actions. It's amazing how people from all different races, ethnicities and creeds all blow themselves up in the name of one Ideology, be it in Palestine, Iraq or Nigeria.

http://news.yahoo.com/suicide-bomber-kills-48-students-nigeria-094106242.html

It's just so sad as an outsider looking in, to see how UTTERLY brainwashed and delusional your posts on this thread are. And it's not just you, but other people born in the Muslim world or having a family background there also think this way. Not just on this thread but in general too. And I don't blame you, in fact, I pity you, I really really do because if I was born in a place like Lebanon, I probably will have similar views to yours as well. If that's the culture and mentality that has pervaded that part of the world, then to hell with it, because it's gone to shit. It's not just you, I have some friends with views like you, all of them Muslim, all of them unwavering in their views, regardless of how obtuse they are. I always wondered how so many different people from countries ranging from Egypt to Pakistan have the EXACT same views on varying topics and I finally got it when I studied Islam and Islamic culture. It's frightening to a Westerner such as myself that close to a billion people have similar views to yours on this subject.

Just to conclude, and hopefully, I never have to respond to you on this particular thread again, I hope one day you get to see the larger world and realize it's nowhere near as black and white as you've been brainwashed to believe it is.

[DCS1984 28]

Truly a vile woman she is. But I guess all the money she gets for writing her rubbish must be worth he soul.

I don't understand Karen Armstrong, she is a great writer and her books would be brilliant if she could be at least honest with both sides of the story.

Someone needs to find the middle ground between people like Robert Spencer and Karen Armstrong in these discussions/books.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

You have some serious issues. To say something like that, and then say that my views are delusional is just crazy. Murder is a MURDER. If you have any moral, you'd know that.

Now I can put for example ''video - how the jews treat christians in israel''

and I could say: All the Jews are like that. That's what you are doing.

And, of course, I know that those on the video are only small percentage and extremes.

If you dont understand the difference between extreme muslims and those who want to live in peace, then I must say that you're an idiot.

I'm not sure why you're typing in bold, the video I put up was only to show how Hamas officials use the Qur'an and Hadith to justify their genocidal beliefs encoded in their charter.

And isn't it ironic how the "extreme Muslims" were democratically voted in by the Palestinians who "just want to leave in peace"? How does that work?

Also, you're yet to prove the "genocide". Only a person with serious issues will believe such nonsense. A "genocide" but the population keeps on increasing and increasing. Time to wake up from La La land and come back to the real world, dude.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

I don't understand Karen Armstrong, she is a great writer and her books would be brilliant if she could be at least honest with both sides of the story.

Someone needs to find the middle ground between people like Robert Spencer and Karen Armstrong in these discussions/books.

She's definitely paid to write what she writes. You don't even have to read some book written by some Westerner 1000's of years after the event on Islam or Muhammad. All that needs to be done is read the Qur'anic verses and the Tafsir of these verses in context. Then read the Hadith and the biography of Muhammad and finally the Reliance of the Traveler. Any sane, partial person who has done these things will surely side with a Robert Spencer over a Karen Armstrong.

[dUMB 189]

I'm not sure why you're typing in bold, the video I put up was only to show how Hamas officials use the Qur'an and Hadith to justify their genocidal beliefs encoded in their charter.

And isn't it ironic how the "extreme Muslims" were democratically voted in by the Palestinians who "just want to leave in peace"? How does that work?

Also, you're yet to prove the "genocide". Only a person with serious issues will believe such nonsense. A "genocide" but the population keeps on increasing and increasing. Time to wake up from La La land and come back to the real world, dude.

I'm done talking with you. Find some professional help because you've been brainwashed with some serious American propaganda.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

In certain parts of the world, you can lose your life for saying that. I wonder why.

Like you said, it's the teachings, the fruits and the fruits are rotten and in desperate need of reform, be it in Gaza, Chechnya or Iraq. Be it ISIL, Boko Haram or Al Shabaab. They all read from the same book and are all fighting, waging Jihad, in the name of the same deity and prophet.

Trying to play a blame game and restrict this to "land" helps nobody. ISIS are literally cutting the heads off of other human beings, something Muhammad did as well to the Qurayza Jews. They aren't doing this because of "land" or "occupation", or are they trying to implement Sharia or the Caliphate because of the West or Israel, It's because of Islam.

And as for "Phobia", anyone will be phobic to a religion that is threatening and taking the lives of countless millions of people (of different creeds and nationalities) around the world today.

Edited November 19, 2014 by CHOULO19

[dUMB 189]

Have you read the articles you have posted?

1) True too many Palestinians have died, one is too many. He also says too many Israeli's have died. No mention of a genocide. He speaks of a conflict.

2) An Al-Jazeera editiorial and electronic-intifada site? Shall I post some from the Jerusalem times? No mention of the continued indiscriminate rocket firing at Israeli and when they miss their own position. Both are in the wrong in their actions but there is no evidence of a state sponsored genocide like you claimed.

3) Much better an impartial article. 5,315 deaths on both sides since 2000 . A state sponsored genocide? Where?

What you need to do is show proof that Israel is on purpose killing Palestinians in an effort to wipe them out. That is a genocide, that is what some Turks attempted to do to the Armenians or what happened in the Holocaust. What is happening in the Israel/Palestinian conflict is not the same.

Most of those killed in the conflict have been civilians not involved in the fighting. Deliberately targeting civilians is strictly prohibited in international law in all circumstances: a rule which applies to all combatants whether from government armed forces or members of militia groups. Persons protected under occupation law are considered as civilians except for that period of time that they may be actively engaged in hostilities or are carrying arms.

Amongst Israelis, 69% of those killed were civilians and 31% members of the IDF. The number of Israeli civilians killed, from attacks by Palestinian armed groups or individuals, has declined steadily, peaking in 2002 at an average of 22 deaths per month, and dropping markedly to an average of one civilian per month in 2007. 6/

In contrast to Israeli figures, however, Palestinian civilian fatalities have remained high. Palestinian civilians, killed by Israeli security forces, peaked with an average of 35 deaths per month in 2002, and again in 2004. In 2007 they dropped slightly to an average of ten civilian deaths per month.

It is considerably more difficult to distinguish precisely who amongst those Palestinians killed were civilians. Since September 2000, of Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces, whose status was known 7/, 59% were civilians and 41% were engaged in hostilities at the time of their death. - See more at: http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/BE07C80CDA4579468525734800500272#sthash.0wI0DUxo.dpuf

You need to see things from both sides. Unprocessed hate crimes doesn't help in improving situation. I think that people (both Palestinians and Israelis) are tired of their leaders and their aggressive politics. Mr.Excalibur fails to see people as individuals with their own opinions and just puts all Muslims in the same box and that is racist. But that is his problem.

I live in a Christian country so I cant tell much about Muslims, but what I know is that not all Christians are the same. And I know that goes for Muslims too.

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Firstly I'd agree with you. Israeli's conduct with Lebanon has been greatly outside the the scope of modern diplomacy and being all the way in North Wales (was born in Scotland) we haven't got anything comparable. However remember there was a conflict between Hezbolah and Israel in 2006 after the withdrawal of Israeli forces due to continuing rocket attacks from southern Lebanon.

Incorrect. The 2006 war was on the surface because of the continued imprisoning of Lebanese people in Israeli prisons and Hizboullah kidnapping two Israeli soldiers to trade them with the prisoners. Looking deeper it was a US war started as the "labor for the birth of the new middle east" as Rice put it.

The struggle has everything do with the people on the ground on both sides. However for a solution to be found, Israel has to withdraw but can't as it doesn't have the assurances that attacks won't return from the territory from the controlling political party.

They can't get assurances that the rockets will stop because the rockets are a direct result of the Israeli occupation and the daily atrocities committed by it. Withdrawing is not enough. The only way to stop the rockets is to make the Palestinian people (not parties, not militias) not support the launching of rockets and that is achieved by giving them a proper free life.

Don't forget about Israeli's missile Iron dome system, how many lives has it saved? You talk of the lack of casualties in the recent conflict but think how many there would have been otherwise? There were 4,954 rockets and mortar fired into Israel in July. Think how many would have died if it wasn't for that system? Do you really believe 4,954 of them were the aimed rockets?

That is besides the point. The dome is there so it needs to be factored in when talking about the launching of rockets. On any account, the dome intercepts mostly the long range rockets, i.e. the undirected ones, plus the rockets fulfill their purpose when they are launched. Their aim is to trigger the alarms and scare people, not to kill as many civilians as possible.

I don't believe per say, that the conflict is an Islamic/Jewish conflict completely, the failure to able to resolve the conflict has strong foundations in there though. As has been written, Israel recognizes Palestine right to exist but it isn't reciprocated and for what reason? Is it political or is it religious?

Means absolute nothing when Israel can and have always stopped the existence of a Palestinian state while the Palestinians cannot (and probably never) stop the existence of the Israeli state. All bullshit political statements. Israel wants to appease the 'international community' and views of it while the Palestinian leaders want to make meaningless political slogans.

As for Shahid, you know where the philosophy of death comes from in Islam. Do you believe those that commit the suicide attacks are doing out an attempt to help their fellow countrymen in the present or for something even greater?

Bukari Volume 9, Book 90, Number 333:

Abu Huraira said, Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hand my life is, I would love to fight in Allah's Cause and then get martyred and then resurrected (come to life) and then get martyred and then resurrected (come to life) and then get martyred, and then resurrected (come to life) and then get martyred and then resurrected (come to life)." Abu Huraira used to repeat those words three times and I testify to it with Allah's Oath.

That's hardly proof of anything. History is full of people and groups of all different faiths volunteering to die for what they believed is the greater good.

I can't agree with you there is no way that by sacrificing yourself in a suicide attack can ever be the solution to your loved ones problems. Who has appointed you judge over the people you kill? Yes, I might be idealistic over this and far away but the point remains, if do what they did in Jerusalem yesterday then what have you achieved but murder? You haven't defended the honor of the Palestinian or the Al-Asqa Mosque you have killed people that you have no right to do.

What you achieve is enough pressure from the Israeli citizens on their leaders to force them to put a halt on their daily terrorizing of Palestinians and their plans to occupy Al Aqsa and build new settlements. It the difference between "Meh, another Lebanese shepherd was shot dead" and "Why are we provoking them, we don't want to open the Lebanese front again."

Just to make sure, I fully support both states' right to exist and the complete equal rights of any citizen in both states.

I don't. The only hope for peace is a single state where everyone lives as equals regardless of religion or ethnicity. Now THAT is Utopian!

[DCS1984 28]

You need to see things from both sides. Unprocessed hate crimes doesn't help in improving situation. I think that people (both Palestinians and Israelis) are tired of their leaders and their aggressive politics. Mr.Excalibur fails to see people as individuals with their own opinions and just puts all Muslims in the same box and that is racist. But that is his problem.

I live in a Christian country so I cant tell much about Muslims, but what I know is that not all Christians are the same. And I know that goes for Muslims too.

dUMB you have continually argued from the Palestinian "side" have you tried to put an argument together for the Israeli side? The information you have posted so far has mainly came from Palestinian sources but perhaps you should take a look at their sources

Muslims aren't a race, they are individual people who follow a faith.

If Mr.Excalibur brings up a un-emotional (though it can be so hard with what's going on) point with the correct quotations and references to back them up hopefully they can be responded to by who-ever feels free to respond

[CHOULO19 24,332]

Right back at ya, CHOULO19. You said it yourself. You live in Lebanon, an incredibly racist Jew-hating country, like majority of the Muslim world. You've been brainwashed to the tilt without even knowing it and it shines right through your posts on this particular thread. That's why you accuse me of "propaganda", it's all you can do.

Dude, don't make me dig up the countless times you've magically disappeared after me, Stingray or FB genuinely address one of your posts and you cannot come up with an answer.

I haven't made a single posts insulting Jews or Judaism while all your posts are attacks on Islam using very reliable YouTube videos. I think it is very clear to anyone who is spouting propaganda in here.

What's that supposed to mean? Is this a moral justification for firing thousands of rockets into civilian areas to kill and maim?

Yes it is, actually. "Thousands of Palestinian rockets" that kill 2 Israeli civilians but force a stop to the attacks on Gaza are a more moral than a single Israeli shell on a school full of refugees that achieves nothing except the killing of tens of them.

Prove it.

Fuck off! Go read before you debate anything. I have relatives who were killed and detained by Israeli forces. My own home village had one of two torture centers in Lebanon. I don't know to prove anything to you. If you know nothing of the issue, don't debate it.

That's vile. You sir, have a dangerous mind and you don't even realize it.

Haha. Says the guy defending the killing of thousands of civilians in this past year alone and a supporter of the "human shields" crap! THAT is rich!

The struggle (Jihad?) has absolutely EVERYTHING to do with Islam. The justification for Suicide (Jihadi) bombing is Islam. Have you read the Hamas charter? They quote from the Qur'an and they also quote the genocidal exortations of Muhammad concerning the Jews "judgement day shall not come till Muslims kill Jews". We see Hamas officials quoting the Qur'an as justification for their actions. That is pure ISLAM and blatant racism, the land issue is secondary. A catch 22 to the hatred of Jews in Islam.

No, the Palestinian-Israeli struggle. Have you ever read the charter of the Lebanese communist part or the PLO who gave countless martyrs fighting Israel and were the first to do so, lots of them Christians?

Spout all the shit you want about why the resistance is fighting Israel, and I'll only respond with this link to anti-Zionist Rabbis with Hezboullah leaders in the south of Lebanon: http://dailystar.com.lb/News/Local-News/2012/Apr-02/168930-rabbis-in-surprise-visit-to-south-lebanon.ashx#axzz3JY5p86BG

"Read" and learn more? What justification can there ever be for that aside from Qur'an 9:111 and the promise of virgins in Paradis

Ask the Christians who died fighting against Israel.

Sure let's blame the West and the "Zionists" as always. They create everything fucked up about Islam. Always the blame game. Let's just ignore the fact that these people quote the Qur'an as justification for their actions. It's amazing how people from all different races, ethnicities and creeds all blow themselves up in the name of one Ideology, be it in Palestine, Iraq or Nigeria.

Yeah, the modern Jihadism that was first created by the UK and US in Afghanistan to fight against the Soviet Union. That is not a secret nor a conspiracy. Neither the US nor the UK have ever even tried to deny that because it was VERY publicized at the time. It was no secret operation, it was even voted on in the US congress. Learn your own history FFS!

I won't respond to attacks on my country from someone living in the country with the lowest percentage of believers that global warming is a scientific fact and the highest percentage believers that WWE is real Especially when it is as ignorant as calling Lebanon a "Muslim country" when we have 18 different sect and half of our population is Christian and when we've always had pro-Israel political parties and certainly anti-Palestinian, opinions that I am exposed to and debate everyday.

I KNOW that I won't have to debate you much longer in this thread as you will no doubt vanish after a few posts like you always do. My advice to you is read more and watch less YouTube and foxnews...

[CHOULO19 24,332]

@lucio, your post is not politically related and does not really add anything to the discussion here except the risk of someone getting very insulted. I respect your opinion but we can't have such a post that can be viewed as incredibly offensive by SO MANY people in here. I'm sorry, but I have removed it.

[MrExcalibur100 7,124]

@lucio, your post is not politically related and does not really add anything to the discussion here except the risk of someone getting very insulted. I respect your opinion but we can't have such a post that can be viewed as incredibly offensive by SO MANY people in here. I'm sorry, but I have removed it.

Of course you have to remove it. In other parts of the world, he'll have been killed. How pathetic.