Barbara

spot on. Except it's not only when Mata is injured that we can compromise titles if we build the team around him. He disappears on matches more often than other star players do. It's not only about the amount of goals and assists Messi and Cris provide, but also how they're protagonists or at least contributing players in basically all matches Barça and RM play. Robben, Ribery, Gotze, Reus, Lewa, van Persie, Ozil also have better consistency stats than Mata does meaning they were decisive in matches or at least contributed importantly more often than Mata does. Mata disappears in some kind of matches (for tactical reasons) and also in the odd match now and then (for no apparent reason, except it not being his day). I'm not saying he's inconsistent, I'm just saying he isn't that much consistent when compared to other players - and even those players don't have their teams built around them. how can we be competitive if we build a system around Mata if he goes missing or contributes too little in a relatively compromising amount of matches? I don't know if like Bayern because I feel we miss the main key for that (amazing pivot), but we could at least be a RM.

The key point remains being competitiveness. Mata was our best player in the last two seasons. The last two seasons Chelsea wasn't competitive and because Chelsea wasn't competitive Roman asked Mourinho to change the team's philosophy. Mourinho (and the rest of the managers ahead of top teams) thinks that current winning football is about a balanced team that defends and attacks in blocks meaning that defensive players have to have good pass, a little bit of vision and the DM/CM should allow a smooth and fast transition from defense to attack. The attacking players should also provide defensive achievements such as pressing, tackles, interception and man-marking. That's how big teams are competitive today. They have balanced squads. If Barcelona didn't have one of the best defenses in the world in the 2008-11 period they couldn't afford Messi to be the player he was. Their problems started when Puyol was injured and ever since their defense (FB, CB, DM and CM) wasn't at the same level and that's why they lost some of their competitiveness. RM had one of the best attacking players in the world, but defensively the team allowed the opponents to dominate their midfield, Mourinho is the one who changed that and the result was immediate: from 6 years in row falling in UCL R16 to three consecutive SF. It can't be hard to understand that in modern football defensive players have to improve their passing and vision of the game and attacking players have to improve their defensive skills so they can be competitive. Top teams are attacking sometimes with 6-7 sometimes 8 players because everyone attacks and defends in blocks (except weaker teams that need to park the bus). It doesn't need to be a math genius to conclude DMs, FBs, CBs aren't enough to cover that... Normally teams can afford one player to have less (or even little) defensive responsibilities. Right now I can name Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo who are out-of-this-world footballers and can't be compared to the rest. Robben, Ribery, Ozil, Gotze, Reus, strikers all have defensive responsibilities imposed by their managers. So it's time for the club and the manager to make a decision. To keep Mata with his little service and work-rate and not enough attacking contribution to win us anything worth mentioning (because he is no Messi or Ronaldo) or adapt to what the best teams in Europe have in place and compete for big titles. We may love Mata - some more than others, we may want his splitting passes in the matches (all of us want it), but if we want him to be the exact player he's been for the rest two years let's prepare ourselves to have realistically 0% chances of winning EPL and an average between winning UCL and being knocked out in the groups stage - because chances are neither will happen, but something in the middle might be the reality (R16 or maybe a QF depending on the bracket). When I look back to our history in the last couple of years it's normally been the goals we conceded that cost us competitiveness more than the goals we didn't score and also our inability to solve complicated matches - which means we had tactical limitations. We have problems in the attack and in the pivot, I'm not denying it, but knowing the resident issues we have in the pivot and in the attack should make us want to desperately fix our liabilities in the AM - because that's attainable right now.

Yep, in Brazil we see things in an attacking way, that's how we approach the sport, but normally that doesn't apply to our CBs. In the history of football - at least recent that I had access to - no country produced better FB for the attack than we did because for decades we saw FB as attacking players (it's slowly changing now). For Brazilians a FB was made to attack, dribble, run and cross - defending is optional because that's why the double pivot and the CBs are there for. And our standards are very high. What you guys call good crosses by Iva and Bertrand we call rubbish most time. A good FB for us is someone that finds a player with their cross very often during a match. On the other hand our double pivot has always been a defensive and holding zone until recent years when it became a need for those guys to have a good pass and vision. Not sure how many of you remember our 1994/1998 NT's but we had Dunga as a #8 and Mauro Silva as #5 and Mikel near them seems soft [at the same time our FB were Jorginho, Cafu, Branco and Roberto Carlos]. So we had the two CB and the two DM and those were the only guys responsible for defense in our view although of course FB had to press and follow opponents' FB, key word being press, not actually defend. The rest of our midfield was supposed to be offensive and only recently we stopped playing with two strikers. We've always played with a CFW and another striker and our #10 and #7 were supposed to be the most creative players in the field (sometimes the striker took the #7 shirt meaning the #11 would be the AM - believe it or not most teams in Brazil you can still tell the players' positions by the # of their shirt. Most teams have 1-11 lineups where 2 is a RB, 3 and 4 are CB, 6 is a LB, 5 and 8 are CMs or DMs and 7, 10, 11 are either AMs or a striker and the 9 is a CFW or a FW. The exceptions are normally players who came from Europe and got attached to a random shirt #). So while it's normal for us in our culture to have a player move forward, it's not very common to see it in CB's like Luiz. What normally happens here is that guys that can attack will change positions and for example a CB will become either a CM or even an AM. There are way too many examples of players that started as CB, FB, or DM and in a couple of years were 'promoted' to a more offensive position depending on their original one. If Luiz was still in Brazil at this point he would already be a B2B easily. We don't normally like our CBs to venture into the attack - of course we won't bitch about it like people in England do, but we'd rather promote the players to a midfield position rather than use him as a surprise factor during the match. Brazil took too long to accept that our style doesn't fit modern football anymore and the money injection our economy allowed in the past few years contributed to the change, otherwise we'd be happily playing 4-4-2 in the scenario I described above. General people here still have difficulties accepting certain changes modern footie brought, but they're much more open to a CM being creative and having a good pass than they are about a FB having to actually defend. People who follow European football are more than adapted, but most people in Brazil still only watch our domestic leagues and our continental leagues and for them some changes are still weird. It's actually funny talking to those people. But chances are if Luiz had stayed in Brazil (or had left when he was older) he wouldn't be a CB anymore... or at least that's my guess.

see? that's why the other day I said that I don't know about Mata (because I don't know Mata enough), but I was sure Luiz would handle this like a professional (and a man). Those are quotes from someone that knows this is natural in football and I'm absolutely sure he meant every and each of those words.

Someone has to assure that 3000 days count keep going and I love it when we take matters in our hands and ensure their cannons continue to meet only water. Bring on the [unloaded] gunners

yeah... Mourinho who had talked to the Abramovich back in January, Mourinho who has said million times there's only one team for him in England, Mourinho who is as fierce as they come... sat on his bed - while on the phone with other people and sobbed because he has lost a job! This Torres guy is one of the journalists that had tons of issues with Mourinho. He had inside info from Casillas and Ramos and therefore leaked the info to the media before Mourinho acknowledged it (and people wonder why he's been so outspoken about Mata and Luiz - not giving a chance for the info to be leaked and twisted as press please, although nothing in the world compares to Spanish press). So I get how he had info on the issues with Casillas and Ramos before - as the two of them probably revealed the kind of conversation Mourinho had with them. I mean does anyone really see Mourinho sobbing on the phone? Look to Mourinho, the fierce guy on press conferences, sobbing because he wasn't chosen. It's so much BS I can't even! Also he doesn't sound bitter at all when his book's title is Get ready to lose - the three years of Mourinho at Real Madrid. Nope, not bitter at all, just a real respecting, nice lad. And of course it had to be brought here, surely.

Watch Mourinho come with a completely unexpected lineup especially because of Ramires' injury (if confirmed he won't play). One might think he may go with a more defensive formation (if he abandons the formations he's been using with 4 backs, a double pivot, 2 AM's and 1 ST), I'd say the opposite. I guess José is up for a surprising lineup. I can see Oscar + 3 AM's.

Holland after the match rats!

what he said. You want to make a Brazilian lose their temper, call their mother any names. We go on beast mode.

I'm slightly worried about the players' fitness to be honest. Not physically, but technically. Too many of them playing sub-par. Of course it could come down to a motivation problem - but then I have a problem with them... they're professionals, fighting for positions should be a natural process to them. But of course they're only human and maybe can't help how they feel. Either way I'm very disappointed with Mata, Kev and Luiz*. All of them could have done better, should have done better, but they were disappointing. Mata had a few moments, but I feel not remotely enough to put a doubt on Mourinho's head. Kev was awful. And Luiz had one of those displays that make people so unsure about him. Too eager to go forward (before he was in the pivot), a little flustered in the defense, but his case isn't lost because Cahill was even worse. Usual Cahill mistakes that from time to time he does. So between the two of them I'd pick Terry As for the match itself, I'm happy with it. We won, it wasn't as good as I expected, but Swindon played quite the decent match - especially defensively. I've seen worse defending by Wigan and Villa in City and Spurs goals. If I were Mourinho I would add another hour to their daily training schedule just to the whole team could work on their finishing. It's hideous. At some point those many wasted chances will start to cause damage (more than it already did against Everton and Basel) and it's something I can only see improving with a lot of practicing... Willian was also below par, but at least in his case we can understand as he hasn't play any match in 45 days prior to joining us, but still some mistakes he had there (especially in the goal chances) had little to do with fitness and more with sharpness.

I'm at lack of words although I'm among the 16. Who would have said this day would arrive?

lol

what's up with José trying the two strikers thing again? I don't get it

that link up between Mata and Bertrand that I wish Cole had with Hazard... if only we could put Ryan's legs on Ashley because Ash is old and is losing forming as years go. Bertrand is hopeless imo According my Brazilian commie before the match against Basel he hasn't play for 45 days. So I guess a little while? He's been really useless today

beautiful finishing by Kev He does have a great long shot accuracy

I didn't mean you! I meant the guy making up excuses for Kev and saying he should leave in a loan. Sorry if it comes off a little bit biased.

Cahill :banghead:

did you see the original post to which the guy quoted? He complained about people making excuses for Kev one of them being he couldn't be motivated to play a match like this. I feel it's a big waste for him to play so badly in one of the chances he was given. I did say in other threads that I understand frustration during the matches. If you aren't frustrated by his below poor presentation, well then I guess you don't expect him to play big matches for this team at all. I'm sad for him. And disappointed because I like him. You should read all my posts in others threads first before assuming things I did say in one of them about feelings during the match. But well, you know what they say around here about Belgians and Belgians players

I just don't wear colored glasses. Nobody except Torres - because currently the competition is low as Eto'o is still gaining form - may have a chance to feature in the match against Spurs. Ramires is already a starting XI reason why Terry is coming for him... But if you want to believe otherwise be my guest... how much he creates has never been the reason why Mourinho didn't use him - although he sort of disappeared creatively in the other matches this season because of his fitness - so a couple of good plays here won't be enough. My original post was that based on the displays so far, Mourinho would repeat the team. I don't know where you got the idea I don't like him. I don't see André leaving the team for him to play at all based in this display. But that's me...

I agree. I'm so disappointed I want him to blossom in the team so much and when he finally has a chance to put a question in Mourinho's head he just plays terribly. If he doesn't find motivation to play an official match and have a good performance as a ticket into the main team, then I don't know what else is to be expected from a professional player...

I saw him missing a goal, was there anything else to see (in the first goal I mean)? The previous attempt - that Torres pathetically missed - was a good assist by Mata as well as a couple other good passes. Mixed with giving the ball away, lazy defending, clueless marking, I'd bet parts of my body if what he's done so far convinced Mourinho he should play, but maybe you guys are right...

looks like our starting XI against Fulham will be the one against Spurs... any other change doesn't make any sense in my head - except maybe Torres for Eto'o

My God, Cahill. That's totally like him to have such a first touch The only one giving Mou some thinking is Torres. The rest are either terrible, or alternating good and terrible plays. I guess Essien is also playing well, but poor Bison it's not like he stands a chance.

Torres.... wow... I'm shocked

don't know if you meant he should have (as in shouldn't have missed such a clear chance) or if you're implying the ball would go in if Torres didn't reach it (because it wouldn't)