The only place to be

Made his debut off the bench for Derby, but they were on the end of a 4-1 tonking from Leicester.

So we should discard 'the next big thing' instead and hope we sign the next 'next big thing' when he comes along? You make it sound like signing the 'next big thing' is easy. He's 31but Courtois is 21 and there's an argument about who the better keeper is already. That type of talent is phenomenal and for you to dismiss it so lightly might sound loyal (I'd say overly sentimental) but in terms of managing talent seems rather short-sighted.

There's a chat going on Twitter about this right now. https://twitter.com/ianlynam/status/421602168194351104 Apparently it's not as clear cut as that article suggests and would apparently include his 'market value' included in any attempt to buy himself out. How you arrive at that would be fairly complicated but the bottom line is that he probably could force a move if he wanted to. Bear in mind that he never actually submitted a formal transfer request last time so going about it this other way would be unlikely, or at least a last resort. United's current predicament could impact a lot of their transfer dealings over the next couple of windows.

You're right. We need to be loved and to that end we should give Cech a 15 year contract. He is a legend after all and I'd to be thought a terrible fan. Also I suggest we donate Courtois to a needy team in order for us to be more loved by fans of teams I previously couldn't give a fuck about. Look, passion is why we're all supporters of this club but at the same time there are economic realities, as well as plain old human realities associated with managing players and they can't always be beholden to sentimentality. We aren't talking about kicking Cech out for a young prospect who is rough around the edges. We're talking about replacing him with someone who is arguably better than him at the age of 21 - people seem to ignore what an amazing achievement that already is. It's not OTT to suggest Courtois could become one of the all-time greats when all is said and done. He certainly has the pedigree at this young age.

I don't think people are desperate to do anything of the sort. I just think that when there are stories linking players to moves (however spurious they might be) it does make one think of what type of fee might be attached to such a move.

Since when do physios shower with the players?

Did you honestly expect Scott Parker or Shaun Wright-Philips to be 'world class' when we signed them? And (because this needs it's own separate question because it's just fantastic) were you expecting Steve Sidwell to be 'world class' when we signed him? Really??? Luke Shaw is a class above where these players were at the same age.

Save ratios don't take into account things like the types of shot keepers actually had to save. It's a fairly useless statistic as things go. The fact that there's even an argument about which keeper is better when Courtois is still only 21 shows just what a phenomenal talent this guy is.

Goalkeepers are completely different. You don't use different keepers for different tactical reasons. Once you've got a number one, you stick with him to give him a chance to build confidence and to give the defence a chance to build a relationship with him. This whole notion that they should 'fight for a spot' is supremely flawed. It will do more damage than good. Courtois has done more than anyone could have hoped or expected of him in his loan spell. He's become arguably a better keeper than Cech now and he's younger. He should be demanding that number one spot, or he should leave.

I think if a team wanted to sign him, then bidding would need to start at £100 million unless he expressed a desire to leave (like Bale and Ronaldo both did).

Realistically? Double that. He's actually starting to show consistency, he's yet to hit that 100 PL game mark that proved such a crucial point in Ronaldo's development, replacing him would be bloody tough and the hit to our 'prestige' and the possible bonus to not just PSG but the French league could be worth quite a bit in the long run too. Essentially he isn't for sale at any price.

No, but Cudicini was injured (injured players find it hard to play because, well they're injured). He'd also become injury-prone in the season before Cech arrived, so once again different situations. Ah yes, the old 'right click, tutor player' argument. Courtois is an established international, a European champions and possibly a league winner (fingers crossed) who will have played about 200 first-team games and be coming off of a World Cup. Sorry if you thought I was talking about keeping Cech at the club for the next 10 years. I thought I made it quite clear that I could see very little use in keeping him for 10 days after Courtois arrived back at Cobham. Now this is laughable. In training, very maybe. I like how you say arguably in pre-season matches though - the only person who would argue that would be a very stupid little boy. Are you arguing that? Exactly. Whatever was to happen in pre-season, it's still only pre-season. Goalkeepers are judged very differently from every other position on the pitch and the watchword is always stability. You want that guy in goal to be 'THE GUY', not 'THE GUY FOR TODAY, BUT MAYBE NOT NEXT WEEK'. Schwarzer signed for this club knowing Cech was number one. I've seen nothing to suggest he would go elsewhere. It's another spurious argument that holds little to no water. There is a lot of middle ground between having Blackman as back-up and the financial costs associated with keeping Cech around.

The Cudicini/Cech situation was very different. Cech wasn't in Courtois's position before he joined us for a starters. I also disagree with the notion that we would all want Cech as the back-up. Yes he's a great keeper but having someone like that can cause problems when a new young keeper is trying to establish themselves. As for me 'jumping in with a comment like that'...what the fuck? You suggested something and I asked how it would work. No reason for you to get all snotty about it for fucks sake. It might make sense on FIFA or FM to have two great keepers in the squad but in the real world there are real issues about how it actually works. Cech earns a fair chunk of change but also has a decent amount of value. Are you seriously suggesting we spend that much on a player who makes maybe 9 appearances a season as well as taking up a non-homegrown squad place? How exactly does he 'fight for a spot' by the way? I've seen that notion thrown around here a couple of times but how does that work in practice?

Good for him, although on the day that FIFA reveals what a clusterfuck the Qatar World Cup is going to be old Thomas has probably made sure he can't attend it.

The bid was for the summer world cup of 2022....we could now have a winter world cup in 2023. Plus you've got the African Cup of Nations in January 2023. So are we supposed to have a season start in August and then have a month-long break (realistically it would need to be more than that for training camps and the such)? Then you've got other considerations like American networks screening games when the NFL Playoffs are in full swing, as well as the College Football bowl games. It's a massive fucking joke and they should just put it in a more suitable country.

Fucking pathetic. Hope The FA threatens to boycott it. Fifa has completely ruled out any prospect of the Qatar 2022 World Cup being played in the summer. President Sepp Blatter had already said the tournament would be in November or December but organisers had still hoped to host it in June and July. But Fifa general secretary Jerome Valcke says it could take place between 15 November and 15 January. "The dates for the World Cup (in Qatar) will not be June-July," Valcke told Radio France. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25653594

That's essentially what Bertrand gives you. 200 games and very little impression left is perhaps why people shouldn't be too surprised if Mourinho doesn't really rate him. Maybe there's an issue with his attitude that Jose doesn't like, or something in training but Bertrand's legend does seem to be growing in his absence.

How's that actually work? Do they get alternate games? One plays the first half, the other the second? If we make the switch then it has to be done cleanly - Courtois is made number one and gets a proper chance to bed in and build a relationship with the team. The argument used to be that he was the better choice for the future, but there's a very strong case that he's the better keeper right now. Would Cech want to be the back-up too?

I think you're completely ignoring the romance of sport. We went to Barcelona and Munich as the underdog (the reasons for which you may have a point about - with our resources we should've been far better but we were mismanaged in the years after Jose left) yet the character and resolve we showed were absolutely remarkable. Some of the greatest sports stories that survive decades of retelling are based on those values, so I'm not that ashamed by what I saw those nights. To be honest I couldn't give a fuck what neutrals thought about us that night either. They don't factor into my thinking because I'm a Chelsea supporter. The guys next to me in Munich didn't seem to care what neutrals thought of us either. But like you said, to each his own.

He's also two and a bit years older, made his top division debut at 19 not 17 like Luke and really this is a fairly subjective debate to be having.

To my mind we've actually been improving as the season has gone on which isn't at all surprising when you think about it. The players would obviously take time to learn Mourinho's system and methods, but Jose would also need time to work out which players he can trust and which players might not be able to fit in. So you see guys like De Bruyne marginalised whilst others like Azpi come to the fore. I don't know if you keep a £35 million player around when he doesn't fit the system just in case a player gets injured. I actually think he might be FOURTH choice for the number 10 spot (behind Oscar, Willian and Hazard who played there against Southampton) so we probably could do with an additional wide player instead of another player whose best position is 10. The question is whether there are players available that we could purchase and there probably aren't at this time, so Mata won't go anywhere until the summer. The concern there is that his value may continue to drop.

There aren't any other players available in Mikel's position (Lamps injured, Van Ginkel injured, Essien done) and we're looking to buy a new player in his position. So your answer to where he fits is to suggest we radically change the way we play at home? I agree that we look better defensively, but I think that comes from all 10 outfield players doing their jobs better having learnt them in the months since Mourinho arrived. I just think that Mourinho wants us to play a very specific way and I don't see how Mata fits into that in the long-term.

United's problem (going off-topic) is that I'm not sure they know what they need. I think they're looking to replace Keane and Scholes but the game has moved on. I don't know what their style of play is and I don't know what Moyes style of play is to be honest, which is why they look like a mess. They seem to want to continue to play the 'United way' but that was looking a bit weary over the last couple of seasons.

All very nice, but the question remains where does Mata actually play right now? To my mind, he's probably THIRD choice in the number 10 spot behind Oscar and Willian. He's probably second choice on the right wing behind Willian. So what role does he play? Impact sub? He's not that type of player. He's the type you have to build an entire team around and let him dictate the tempo. It's easy to say he makes us weaker in defence, but that's too simplistic. We press high up the pitch and that isn't just about defence, it's about creating chances for us to score as well. It's a dimension of the offence that is often ignored but it helps us control the tempo of games even without the ball. So you're left with a player who is worth about £40 million to the right team who doesn't fit our system in his best role, doesn't really fit it on the wing and isn't the type of 'plan B' option you'd want off the bench. That's a £40 million asset on a team that needs to acquire players in other positions both in the short and medium-term. Sentiment aside (because the arguments for keeping Mata aren't based on where he fits in a tactical sense) there's a strong case for cashing in.

And the funny thing is that it's not just about Mata or Oscar, look at the players on the wings this year. Hazard in particular seems to be benefitting greatly from the guy next to him putting in more of a shift, but also a greater amount of responsibility. Then there's Willian on the other side who has been something of a revelation. That's what I love about Oscar - he makes the player next to him better. The press works better with him. The midfield gets far more support from him and now he's adding goals and assists to his game. He's had more MOTM performances than any other player and he has carried this team, especially at the start of the season. You can see him growing in confidence with the shots he's taking. He even stepped up for a free-kick yesterday. The argument for playing Mata isn't that he would fit this team better, but that we should build the team around him. Problem is there are only a few players in the world that top teams would build the entire side around and I'm not sure if Mata is one of them.