The English Football Thread

[Fernando 6,646]

City were inconsistent like us. As I said we probably beat arsenal but then blow it at Bournemouth or something like that. 

But if they and us are still within reach in the January transfer window I'm sure someone will buy to help with that inconsistency. For city I think it's their middle and for us we already know. 

Edited yesterday at 17:09 by Fernando

[Vesper 30,499]

2 minutes ago, TheHulk said:

Rather them than Arsenal.

I only want us to win

IF Citeh keep winning the league they will set a bar so high over a long period that they may well even pass up Manure

I am not going to arsed over Arse winning a stray league title

Spuds yes, Arse no

where I want Arse to fail is the CL, same for Citeh

but may well not get my wishes there due to Arse's insane form and lack of quality in re other sides

PSG, Real, and a fully healthy Chels (ie Palmer and Colwill especially, but Colwill is a long shot) are the main teams that have the best shot

maybe Bayern if they play a far better game AND get Musiala back

 

[Laylabelle 9,577]

Its been years since we've had a trophy parade and feels long over due..

Dont want the next london club to win the league to be Arsenal! Its more and more likely but still..rather not! 

[Vesper 30,499]

nil 2 Fulham up on Spuds

[Vesper 30,499]

earliest Spuds have ever been down nil 2 at home in EPL history

[Vesper 30,499]

only Wolves have a worst EPL home record than Spuds this season

[Vesper 30,499]

Declan Rice, Moises Caicedo and Enzo Fernandez are proof that £100m transfers can work

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6842793/2025/11/29/rice-caicedo-fernandez-value-arsenal-Chelsea/

In an era where football fans implore their club to spend big money on new players, it’s notable that very few of the most expensive footballers in history have been an unqualified success at their new club.

Eleven players have been transferred for £100million or more, and there are more flops than clear positives. Antoine Griezmann’s 2017 move from Atletico Madrid to Barcelona (£105.9m) fell flat, and the experience of his direct replacement Joao Felix (£112.9m), arriving at Atletico from Benfica, was entirely underwhelming too. Philippe Coutinho’s £142m move from Liverpool to Barcelona was a clear failure — they ended up loaning him to Aston Villa, where he was a belated replacement for Jack Grealish, whose £100m move to Manchester City produced trophies, but far from Grealish’s best football.

Elsewhere, Neymar (£200m) and Kylian Mbappe (£165.7m) remain first and second on the list respectively and while their goalscoring numbers and Ligue 1 title count both look impressive, ultimately Paris Saint-Germain only achieved their long-awaited Champions League success after they departed. Their triumph last season was billed, perhaps a little reductively, as an anti-superstar win.

Two Liverpool summer signings, Alexander Isak (£125m, third all-time) and Florian Wirtz (£116m), are also on the list. It’s too early to make any definitive judgements but, at this moment in time, neither are part of Liverpool’s best XI, and Arne Slot is having problems integrating them into the team without compromising his side’s structure and balance.

What You Should Read Next

There are 125 million reasons why Alexander Isak is becoming a big problem for Liverpool

British football's record signing could not have made a worse start to his career at his new club

And therefore it’s arguable that, amongst the aforementioned 11, the three positive cases will be in the same midfield zone at Stamford Bridge on Sunday. And their positioning is relevant. The other eight were all attackers or playmakers. Enzo Fernandez (£106m), Declan Rice (£105m) and Moises Caicedo (up to £115m) are all-round midfielders — and they aren’t necessarily playing the roles we expected.

Rice and Caceido in action at Stamford Bridge in November 2024Glyn Kirk/AFP via Getty Images

Fernandez burst onto the world scene at World Cup 2022, brought in to stabilise an Argentina side which had suffered a shock defeat by Saudi Arabia. He offered passing ability, but destructive qualities too — no one at the tournament made more tackles in their own third of the pitch. Chelsea, a club with a history of solid, reliable holding midfielders, seemed a perfect fit.

And while that was where Fernandez was initially deployed, he’s impressed in more advanced zones. In his four seasons at Chelsea, he’s gone from zero goals per game, to 0.1, to 0.2, to 0.4. He’s gone from 0.2 shots on target per game, to 0.5, to 0.6, to 1.0. He’s gone from shooting from an average of 26 yards, to 21 yards, to 18 yards, to 17 yards. His recent goal against Burnley, converting a cut-back from point-blank range, was very different from what we expected when he joined, but typical of his game these days. He’s playing something closer to the Frank Lampard role than the Claude Makelele role.

“Enzo can play in different positions for us, he can play as a No 6 or as an attacking midfielder,” his manager Enzo Maresca said in September. “We have used him in 90 per cent of our games as an attacking midfielder, and I think he is very good in this position. But it depends a little bit on the game plan.”

That game plan has also determined the precise role played by his midfield partner, Caicedo. In his Brighton & Hove Albion days, Caicedo was billed as true all-rounder, a midfield ball-winner who could also surge into attack and make positive forward passes. What wasn’t yet evident, although perhaps obvious in hindsight, was that Caicedo was well-suited to the unusual ‘half-back’ role that involves acting as a right-back without possession, but a central midfielder when Chelsea had the ball.

Caicedo has shown positional flexibility since joining ChelseaJustin Setterfield/Getty Images

“I see Moi as a No 6 in the way he is playing since we started,” he said last season. “He’s played some matches as a full-back off the ball, and then on the ball he is a No 6, a holding midfielder.”

Maresca used this approach on a number of occasions last season, and reprised the system in the 5-1 thrashing of Ajax last month, when Chelsea scored five times by the 48th-minute mark — one of them from Caicedo — and then switched off, having put the game to bed. Caicedo dictated the play from deep in midfield, then made recovery runs towards the right-back zone.

 

Meanwhile, when Rice was coming through at West Ham United, there was a question about whether his long-term future was as a centre-back or a holding midfielder. When he was linked with a return to Chelsea, who released him as a teenager, it seemed Chelsea believed he was more of a defender.

And even upon his arrival at Arsenal, it seemed unlikely Rice would play such a roving role. “The signing of Kai Havertz from Chelsea — who will likely fill the left-sided No 8 role for Arteta — would see Rice slot in as a No 6,” wrote The Athletic’s Art de Roche when Rice signed, although significantly, he added: “He is a player whose attributes lend themselves to more than one role.”

Rice has offered plenty of attacking threat since joining ArsenalJustin Setterfield/Getty Images

Rice has barely played in that holding midfield role, despite Arsenal not having that position sorted — Thomas Partey and Jorginho were replaced with Martin Zubimendi and Christian Norgaard this summer. There was never a thought for Rice to play that static No 6 role, because he’s become such a specialist at his left-sided No 8 role.

Still, his performance in Arsenal’s thumping 4-1 win over Tottenham Hotspur last weekend was interesting — at times he was receiving the ball between his centre-backs, the next he was bursting in behind the opposition for a good chance.

 

And all these players have benefited from the sense that central midfielders are being given more freedom than a couple of seasons ago — there is less clear demarcation of defensive midfielders and attacking midfielders, and instead a resurgence of popularity in players who could broadly be considered box-to-box midfielders, who do a bit of everything.

It’s fair to add that, at these prices, Fernandez, Caicedo and Rice need more longevity, and more honours, before we officially classify them as good-value-for-money signings. But thus far, signs are good.

Attackers signed for £100m+ are automatically considered worth building a side around — sometimes worth ripping up successful systems for. But history suggests the best way to spend £100m is actually on an emerging all-round midfielder, who is young enough to be shaped into what the club needs, and versatile enough to play different roles.

[Special Juan 28,299]

No bias on Sky Sports today covering the Liverpool game...they have Connor Coady and Jamie Carragher in the studio

[Laylabelle 9,577]

54 minutes ago, Special Juan said:

No bias on Sky Sports today covering the Liverpool game...they have Connor Coady and Jamie Carragher in the studio

The stupid thing is despite their form if we lose today they're only 2 behind us...its bonkers 

[Laylabelle 9,577]

16 hours ago, Vesper said:

Declan Rice, Moises Caicedo and Enzo Fernandez are proof that £100m transfers can work

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6842793/2025/11/29/rice-caicedo-fernandez-value-arsenal-Chelsea/

In an era where football fans implore their club to spend big money on new players, it’s notable that very few of the most expensive footballers in history have been an unqualified success at their new club.

Eleven players have been transferred for £100million or more, and there are more flops than clear positives. Antoine Griezmann’s 2017 move from Atletico Madrid to Barcelona (£105.9m) fell flat, and the experience of his direct replacement Joao Felix (£112.9m), arriving at Atletico from Benfica, was entirely underwhelming too. Philippe Coutinho’s £142m move from Liverpool to Barcelona was a clear failure — they ended up loaning him to Aston Villa, where he was a belated replacement for Jack Grealish, whose £100m move to Manchester City produced trophies, but far from Grealish’s best football.

Elsewhere, Neymar (£200m) and Kylian Mbappe (£165.7m) remain first and second on the list respectively and while their goalscoring numbers and Ligue 1 title count both look impressive, ultimately Paris Saint-Germain only achieved their long-awaited Champions League success after they departed. Their triumph last season was billed, perhaps a little reductively, as an anti-superstar win.

Two Liverpool summer signings, Alexander Isak (£125m, third all-time) and Florian Wirtz (£116m), are also on the list. It’s too early to make any definitive judgements but, at this moment in time, neither are part of Liverpool’s best XI, and Arne Slot is having problems integrating them into the team without compromising his side’s structure and balance.

What You Should Read Next

There are 125 million reasons why Alexander Isak is becoming a big problem for Liverpool

British football's record signing could not have made a worse start to his career at his new club

And therefore it’s arguable that, amongst the aforementioned 11, the three positive cases will be in the same midfield zone at Stamford Bridge on Sunday. And their positioning is relevant. The other eight were all attackers or playmakers. Enzo Fernandez (£106m), Declan Rice (£105m) and Moises Caicedo (up to £115m) are all-round midfielders — and they aren’t necessarily playing the roles we expected.

Rice and Caceido in action at Stamford Bridge in November 2024Glyn Kirk/AFP via Getty Images

Fernandez burst onto the world scene at World Cup 2022, brought in to stabilise an Argentina side which had suffered a shock defeat by Saudi Arabia. He offered passing ability, but destructive qualities too — no one at the tournament made more tackles in their own third of the pitch. Chelsea, a club with a history of solid, reliable holding midfielders, seemed a perfect fit.

And while that was where Fernandez was initially deployed, he’s impressed in more advanced zones. In his four seasons at Chelsea, he’s gone from zero goals per game, to 0.1, to 0.2, to 0.4. He’s gone from 0.2 shots on target per game, to 0.5, to 0.6, to 1.0. He’s gone from shooting from an average of 26 yards, to 21 yards, to 18 yards, to 17 yards. His recent goal against Burnley, converting a cut-back from point-blank range, was very different from what we expected when he joined, but typical of his game these days. He’s playing something closer to the Frank Lampard role than the Claude Makelele role.

“Enzo can play in different positions for us, he can play as a No 6 or as an attacking midfielder,” his manager Enzo Maresca said in September. “We have used him in 90 per cent of our games as an attacking midfielder, and I think he is very good in this position. But it depends a little bit on the game plan.”

That game plan has also determined the precise role played by his midfield partner, Caicedo. In his Brighton & Hove Albion days, Caicedo was billed as true all-rounder, a midfield ball-winner who could also surge into attack and make positive forward passes. What wasn’t yet evident, although perhaps obvious in hindsight, was that Caicedo was well-suited to the unusual ‘half-back’ role that involves acting as a right-back without possession, but a central midfielder when Chelsea had the ball.

Caicedo has shown positional flexibility since joining ChelseaJustin Setterfield/Getty Images

“I see Moi as a No 6 in the way he is playing since we started,” he said last season. “He’s played some matches as a full-back off the ball, and then on the ball he is a No 6, a holding midfielder.”

Maresca used this approach on a number of occasions last season, and reprised the system in the 5-1 thrashing of Ajax last month, when Chelsea scored five times by the 48th-minute mark — one of them from Caicedo — and then switched off, having put the game to bed. Caicedo dictated the play from deep in midfield, then made recovery runs towards the right-back zone.

 

Meanwhile, when Rice was coming through at West Ham United, there was a question about whether his long-term future was as a centre-back or a holding midfielder. When he was linked with a return to Chelsea, who released him as a teenager, it seemed Chelsea believed he was more of a defender.

And even upon his arrival at Arsenal, it seemed unlikely Rice would play such a roving role. “The signing of Kai Havertz from Chelsea — who will likely fill the left-sided No 8 role for Arteta — would see Rice slot in as a No 6,” wrote The Athletic’s Art de Roche when Rice signed, although significantly, he added: “He is a player whose attributes lend themselves to more than one role.”

Rice has offered plenty of attacking threat since joining ArsenalJustin Setterfield/Getty Images

Rice has barely played in that holding midfield role, despite Arsenal not having that position sorted — Thomas Partey and Jorginho were replaced with Martin Zubimendi and Christian Norgaard this summer. There was never a thought for Rice to play that static No 6 role, because he’s become such a specialist at his left-sided No 8 role.

Still, his performance in Arsenal’s thumping 4-1 win over Tottenham Hotspur last weekend was interesting — at times he was receiving the ball between his centre-backs, the next he was bursting in behind the opposition for a good chance.

 

And all these players have benefited from the sense that central midfielders are being given more freedom than a couple of seasons ago — there is less clear demarcation of defensive midfielders and attacking midfielders, and instead a resurgence of popularity in players who could broadly be considered box-to-box midfielders, who do a bit of everything.

It’s fair to add that, at these prices, Fernandez, Caicedo and Rice need more longevity, and more honours, before we officially classify them as good-value-for-money signings. But thus far, signs are good.

Attackers signed for £100m+ are automatically considered worth building a side around — sometimes worth ripping up successful systems for. But history suggests the best way to spend £100m is actually on an emerging all-round midfielder, who is young enough to be shaped into what the club needs, and versatile enough to play different roles.

Bit of bad timing haha..their 100m scored today and ours got red carded..

[Vesper 30,499]

9 minutes ago, Laylabelle said:

their 100m scored today

?

[Laylabelle 9,577]

1 minute ago, Vesper said:

?

He got his goal finally..so the problem it mentions them having with him who knows might be over now..hopefully not cause it cant just be us who buys big amd then goes wrong

[Vesper 30,499]

6 minutes ago, Laylabelle said:

He got his goal finally..so the problem it mentions them having with him who knows might be over now..hopefully not cause it cant just be us who buys big amd then goes wrong

who?

in the history of football there are only been a handful of CMF or DMFs who cost £100m

    
Jude Bellingham  (who is more of an AMF)
Enzo Fernández  
Declan Rice
Moisés Caicedo    

and, adjusted for inflation

Paul Pogba 

[Laylabelle 9,577]

10 minutes ago, Vesper said:

who?

in the history of football there are only been a handful of CMF or DMFs who cost £100m

    
Jude Bellingham  (who is more of an AMF)
Enzo Fernández  
Declan Rice
Moisés Caicedo    

and, adjusted for inflation

Paul Pogba 

"Two Liverpool summer signings, Alexander Isak (£125m, third all-time) and Florian Wirtz (£116m), are also on the list. It’s too early to make any definitive judgements but, at this moment in time, neither are part of Liverpool’s best XI, and Arne Slot is having problems integrating them into the team"

But he got his goal today so who knows could be the end of that scoring issue..like said hopefully not! More fun that way