19/20 POTY

[Puliiszola 519]

37 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

I was hoping for real arguments here. Except Pulisic did not play enough minutes I did not see any. And this was taken down when I said Kovacic played just 347 minutes more in PL. 

Pulisic had Hazard influence on us this season.

And some think Mount had better season than Puli? WOW! And he was consistent?

He was missing in October, November, December, January, February. In this 5 months he had three good games max. Against Spurs for example.

POTY has to be someone consistent full season. 

On WAGNH our fans rate our players after every game.

24 times he had 6.0 or less.

6.0, 5.6, 5.9, 5.7, 6.0, 5.9, 5.6, 4.9, 4.8, 5.6, 3.3, 5.6, 5.4, 4.1, 4.3, 5.6, 5.8, 5.9, 5.1, 5.3, 5.6, 5.8, 3.6, 4.9. 

So 24 of his 51 games this season have been 6.0 or less. 47% of games he has been horrible or non existing! And I did not need to see this since this is also my impression when I look back.

Plus 4 more games with 6.0-6.5 rating which is also not great. Now this is 55% of games. 

Even here on Talk Chelsea he was voted just 2 times this season as player of the game. Leicester at home in August and last match against Wolves. Pulisic had 10+ MOTM games this season. 

And while Mount was missing in around half of games this season Pulisic had 6 or 7 max games off. Azpi and Willian have been most consistent players if we consider that they have been regular all season.

So this Mount was great narrative is complete BS. Around 50% of games he was non existing or horrible. 30% solid. And 20% good/ very good.

@Puliiszola so no, he did not need Hakim, Kai or Timo this season to look good because he did not have a good season.

 

 

 

 

 

Lol. Sure

 Whatever floats your boat.

Surprisingly most of fans on here have mount have in their top 3, so wellll.

[NikkiCFC 7,950]

2 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Lol. Sure

 Whatever floats your boat.

Surprisingly most of fans on here have mount have in their top 3, so wellll.

I only bring stats and real arguments.

I also have Willian in top 5 and I want him to leave.

Majority of people are never right. After all Trump, Putin, Erdogan are most popular in their countries. 100% of North Koreans vote for Kim...

[Puliiszola 519]

19 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

I only bring stats and real arguments.

I also have Willian in top 5 and I want him to leave.

Majority of people are never right. After all Trump, Putin, Erdogan are most popular in their countries. 100% of North Koreans vote for Kim...

Wait, you are saying majority people are wrong, but your brilliant "stats and real arguments" are based on the same majority people votings of MOTM and ratings. Well, this makes perfect sense now.😂😂 

 

Also while we are on it, can we see the overall ratings of each player across the season. The correlation of average rating vs the result irrespective of player performance, etc etc. I am sure you would have standardized the ratings too, for eg - if mount is scored 5.9, but the max is 7, with the Average of 5, would not it actually make mount one of our better performers (stats, right?)

I mean I am sure you would have taken all of that into consideration while making such a statement.

Like I said, whatever floats your boat.

Let's just agree to disagree. 

[NikkiCFC 7,950]

1 hour ago, Puliiszola said:

Also while we are on it, can we see the overall ratings of each player across the season. The correlation of average rating vs the result irrespective of player performance, etc etc. I am sure you would have standardized the ratings too, for eg - if mount is scored 5.9, but the max is 7, with the Average of 5, would not it actually make mount one of our better performers (stats, right?)

I mean I am sure you would have taken all of that into consideration while making such a statement.

On the site I quoted you can vote from 1 to 10 after every game. 

Overall season: Pulisic is on 7.1, Kovacic 6.7, Giroud 6.6 and Mount 6.4. 

James, Kante also have more than Mount. And many players are on 6.2 or 6.3. 

But standard is very low this season. 

I want Chelsea to win titles and have 5 or more players in team of the season. This year no one is near. 

But not my point. I posted today on this thread to get some answers and no one answered. 

1. Why many think Kovacic had better season than Pulisic? 

2. For you. Why do you think Mount had better season than Pulisic?

 

 

[Puliiszola 519]

1 hour ago, NikkiCFC said:

On the site I quoted you can vote from 1 to 10 after every game. 

Overall season: Pulisic is on 7.1, Kovacic 6.7, Giroud 6.6 and Mount 6.4. 

James, Kante also have more than Mount. And many players are on 6.2 or 6.3. 

But standard is very low this season. 

I want Chelsea to win titles and have 5 or more players in team of the season. This year no one is near. 

But not my point. I posted today on this thread to get some answers and no one answered. 

1. Why many think Kovacic had better season than Pulisic? 

2. For you. Why do you think Mount had better season than Pulisic?

 

 

Hence why I talked about standardization. People's just pre-match rating can be affected by a generous and good mood because of a win, or a bad mood because of points dropped. A 6 in a defeat might actually be an 8 overall whereas a 7 in a win might actually be a 6. 

 

I did answer why kova is my POTY, infact even posted the link of a post that I made long before this thread. Consistency being the key. 

As for the 2nd question, Puli has been great since re-start, hence the recency bias might be creeping in. If anyone had said, "I vote for puli as our POTY", before the restart, I for one would not have taken him seriously cause let's be honest, he was average. He struggled a bit, maybe due to fitness or form or such a drastic change for a young Man, nothing that we did not expect or have not seen before. As for mount, he has been our trend setter, for me. Our main force in pressing and the perfect link between mid and attack.

I have seen you raise the 5 months from october-feb, yet a lot of people claim that we played some of our best football in that period with mount-jorgimho-kova. Also, if I am willing to give a 60m puli a free pass with it being his first season, I need to give it to mount too, right? Point is, has he needed it, hell no for me. He has done what was expected out of him and then some and then some. He is the main stay of our team for a reason, and I can totally see why. 

Lastly regarding your point about 5 Chelsea players in ToTY. Legends are not made in an year. We were unwilling to afford talents like kdb and salah the time required to show their class. Not we want to do the same with mount? Youth integration is not a switch that you just "on" and your players become world class just because you gave them an oppurtunity. It requires patience and sometimes years of it. Before barca won the league in 08-09, they did not win any for 3/4 years. Cause they were setting up the building blocks for years to come with the likes of Iniesta, Xavi, Puyol etc. 

 

[Jase 43,479]

39 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

As for the 2nd question, Puli has been great since re-start, hence the recency bias might be creeping in. If anyone had said, "I vote for puli as our POTY", I for one would not have taken him seriously cause let's be honest, he was average. He struggled a bit, maybe due to fitness or form or such a drastic change for a young Man, nothing that we did not expect or have not seen before.

Saying Pulisic was average pre-restart is over the top, to be honest. Yes, he struggled in the early months - not a surprise for a newcomer - but since that game at Burnley, he actually started playing well right up until his injury in January. He might not have scored consistently or had a lot of assists but his attacking numbers (it's a The Athletic piece and it's behind a paywall  but the numbers are there) were pretty much second to only Abraham. The difference in Pulisic between pre-restart and since the restart is that he simply went up another level, he got even better. 

And it is also harsh to imply voting for Pulisic as Player of the Year is outlandish. Fair enough if you want to pick Mount or Kovacic for their non-goal/assist work as the POTY but on the other hand, others may look at the impact or offensive output that, for example, Pulisic has produced when choosing their POTY. Moreover, considering this is Pulisic's first season in English football and his struggles early on, to finish the season 2nd or 3rd with the most goal contribution - goals + assists - in the team is pretty impressive.

[milka 3,346]

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[milka 3,346]

10 hours ago, Jason said:

There are so many things wrong with that list...

Every fan have opinion  what is your problem with  that ?

[Jase 43,479]

Just now, milka said:

Every fan have opinion  what is your problem with  that ?

Yeah and my opinion is that there are a lot of things wrong with that list...

[milka 3,346]

Ok i dont care about your opinion  btw . 

[Jase 43,479]

4 minutes ago, milka said:

Ok i dont care about your opinion  btw . 

[NikkiCFC 7,950]

5 hours ago, Puliiszola said:

before the restart, I for one would not have taken him seriously cause let's be honest, he was average. He struggled a bit, maybe due to fitness or form or such a drastic change for a young Man, nothing that we did not expect or have not seen before. As for mount, he has been our trend setter, for me. Our main force in pressing and the perfect link between mid and attack.

I have seen you raise the 5 months from october-feb, yet a lot of people claim that we played some of our best football in that period with mount-jorgimho-kova. Also, if I am willing to give a 60m puli a free pass with it being his first season, I need to give it to mount too, right? Point is, has he needed it, hell no for me. He has done what was expected out of him and then some and then some. He is the main stay of our team for a reason, and I can totally see why. 

But still after restart is 25% of the season.

And it is not like Pulisic was not good before. He was great in that best part of the season and our winning run of 6 PL games. He had 5 goals and 1 assist in this period.

Second game in this run was Southampton away and I feel this was the last good game for Mount in his great start of the season. After this we waited more than 2 months for his good game.

Also we had CL. Pulisic was massive in both Ajax games and Valencia away. Mount did nothing in full CL campaign. Do you remember anything significant? 

Like I said before Pulisic has most MOTM performances in our team. I honestly think he has Ballon d Or potential.

4 hours ago, Jason said:

Saying Pulisic was average pre-restart is over the top, to be honest. Yes, he struggled in the early months - not a surprise for a newcomer - but since that game at Burnley, he actually started playing well right up until his injury in January. He might not have scored consistently or had a lot of assists but his attacking numbers (it's a The Athletic piece and it's behind a paywall  but the numbers are there) were pretty much second to only Abraham. The difference in Pulisic between pre-restart and since the restart is that he simply went up another level, he got even better. 

And it is also harsh to imply voting for Pulisic as Player of the Year is outlandish. Fair enough if you want to pick Mount or Kovacic for their non-goal/assist work as the POTY but on the other hand, others may look at the impact or offensive output that, for example, Pulisic has produced when choosing their POTY. Moreover, considering this is Pulisic's first season in English football and his struggles early on, to finish the season 2nd or 3rd with the most goal contribution - goals + assists - in the team is pretty impressive.

This gave me some perspective for my question. Henderson is POTY in PL this season it seems and Modric even won Ballon d Or before. Many would ask how Henderson over KDB, Mane but you cannot always give this awards to attacking players.

So it is similar with Kovacic-Pulisic for us this season. But would not put Mount in this conversation. That would be like Lallana gets best player of the season award 

[Vesper 28,801]

47 minutes ago, NikkiCFC said:

But would not put Mount in this conversation. That would be like Lallana gets best player of the season award 

oh please, Mount was massive for us all season

only 6 or 7 of our players had good (or better seasons) and some of them (like Giroud and Tammy) were only half a season at that level

César Azpilicueta    
Mateo Kovacic    
Mason Mount    
Christian Pulisic   
Willian    
Tammy Abraham    (1st half)
Olivier Giroud    (2nd half)

 

Alonso, Reece, and even Barkley had some  good games, but in now way were really good all year

I need to see if there is overlap on the Mount haters and the Ake fanboys/girls here

both groups seem too have some sort of religious fervour going on

[Puliiszola 519]

2 hours ago, NikkiCFC said:

But still after restart is 25% of the season.

And it is not like Pulisic was not good before. He was great in that best part of the season and our winning run of 6 PL games. He had 5 goals and 1 assist in this period.

Second game in this run was Southampton away and I feel this was the last good game for Mount in his great start of the season. After this we waited more than 2 months for his good game.

Also we had CL. Pulisic was massive in both Ajax games and Valencia away. Mount did nothing in full CL campaign. Do you remember anything significant? 

Like I said before Pulisic has most MOTM performances in our team. I honestly think he has Ballon d Or potential.

This gave me some perspective for my question. Henderson is POTY in PL this season it seems and Modric even won Ballon d Or before. Many would ask how Henderson over KDB, Mane but you cannot always give this awards to attacking players.

So it is similar with Kovacic-Pulisic for us this season. But would not put Mount in this conversation. That would be like Lallana gets best player of the season award 

Why do you keep using forum MOTM votings as a criteria? Most fans would simply give goal scorers as MoTM with no regards to the performances around them. So obviously forwards will have far more "MoTM" awards than mids and defenders.

If the 25% games were the first game of the season, and then puli had a dip, would we still say he should have got the POTY? Obviously I rate puli too, but imho, consistency takes the cake for me. Obviously people have different criterias, mine is this. Hence my vote goes to kova.

Again with the "mount did nothing for so and so period". Are we serious about it. Because I honestly don't want to argue on such polarizing opinions specially when most fans accept that the same period is when we played our best football with mount being an integral part of a midfield 3. 

[different level 1,056]

Not easy to choose, because pretty much no one has been flawless or even consistent enough to have a clear winner like most of the previous years.

Voted for Pulisic, but I mostly did it because of the Hazardesque vibe he gives with his contribution in the final third. That being said I haven't forgotten his slow start of the season. You could just as easily give the award to either Mount or Kovacic using different arguments, but I'm the type of person who picks flashy over consistent most of the time, so...

[Puliiszola 519]

14 hours ago, Jason said:

Saying Pulisic was average pre-restart is over the top, to be honest. Yes, he struggled in the early months - not a surprise for a newcomer - but since that game at Burnley, he actually started playing well right up until his injury in January. He might not have scored consistently or had a lot of assists but his attacking numbers (it's a The Athletic piece and it's behind a paywall  but the numbers are there) were pretty much second to only Abraham. The difference in Pulisic between pre-restart and since the restart is that he simply went up another level, he got even better. 

And it is also harsh to imply voting for Pulisic as Player of the Year is outlandish. Fair enough if you want to pick Mount or Kovacic for their non-goal/assist work as the POTY but on the other hand, others may look at the impact or offensive output that, for example, Pulisic has produced when choosing their POTY. Moreover, considering this is Pulisic's first season in English football and his struggles early on, to finish the season 2nd or 3rd with the most goal contribution - goals + assists - in the team is pretty impressive.

Cant say OTT. If we look at it in a vaccum (without giving him the concession that a 21 year old, new joinee in a different league deserves), then would say it was average or maybe just above average. I mean if it was a 26 year old zaha for 60m who had put in those performances, we surely would not have been rejoicing, atleast I wont have been. 

 

Totally, agree. I myself, would vote for him as a close 3rd and just behind kova and mount, and might even change it based on what happens in FA cup final and maybe even the bayern game. But "outlandish" was for someone voting for him as POTY before the re-start. Again, preferences matter obviously, but dont think it would/could have been justified, imo. 

[Jase 43,479]

24 minutes ago, Puliiszola said:

Cant say OTT. If we look at it in a vaccum (without giving him the concession that a 21 year old, new joinee in a different league deserves), then would say it was average or maybe just above average. I mean if it was a 26 year old zaha for 60m who had put in those performances, we surely would not have been rejoicing, atleast I wont have been. 

Is that not convenient to disregard context completely? How can one not consider all the factors when it comes to picking Player of the Year? Pulisic practically went from looking lost at the start of the season to arguably our most important attacking player now. 

Also, you keep saying Pulisic was average. What was average about his performances? Once he got into the XI from that Burnley game, he was very good and contributing attacking numbers that were only second to Abraham. If he was average, why then did Lampard consistently play him until he got injured in January? Whenever he has been fully fit, Lampard has put him in the XI. 

And if we want to talk about average performances, go through someone like Kovacic's or Mount's seasons and there are such games as well. Moreover, Kovacic did not play as much in the second half of the season as he did in the first half - partly due to Lampard chopping and changing the midfield - while Mount, for example, was hooked off a couple of times recently because Lampard wasn't happy with his performances. 

[Puliiszola 519]

47 minutes ago, Jason said:

Is that not convenient to disregard context completely? How can one not consider all the factors when it comes to picking Player of the Year? Pulisic practically went from looking lost at the start of the season to arguably our most important attacking player now. 

Also, you keep saying Pulisic was average. What was average about his performances? Once he got into the XI from that Burnley game, he was very good and contributing attacking numbers that were only second to Abraham. If he was average, why then did Lampard consistently play him until he got injured in January? Whenever he has been fully fit, Lampard has put him in the XI. 

And if we want to talk about average performances, go through someone like Kovacic's or Mount's seasons and there are such games as well. Moreover, Kovacic did not play as much in the second half of the season as he did in the first half - partly due to Lampard chopping and changing the midfield - while Mount, for example, was hooked off a couple of times recently because Lampard wasn't happy with his performances. 

I feel judging a player's season successful or not should have such parameters counted for. But something like a POTY, needs to be absolute, imo. The award needs to go to who has performed the best for the club irrespective of age, vintage etc etc. But again, very subjected and obviously everyone will have a different opinion and no one is to say the other is wrong.

Well, knowing his potential, and seeing what he does do on the pitch, I would say those performances were average. Look at the difference between puli before restart and post restart. I feel a difference in class. 

Mount did have a couple of such games, but don't think kova had any of such games. Definitely none where he was hooked off. None which I would say would be lesser than a 6/10