Will the academy eventually help us dominate English football?

[Fernando 6,457]

I think the problem lies in the manager we appoint. 

You want youth but you go for Mourinho.... 

You want youth but now you get Conte.... Now I'm speaking as if conte is the same case as our past manager. To be fair I truly don't know but I do know he left juventus because the board lacked desire to buy his target..... Sounds similar to a special individual. 

So to me this is the case. We want youth but we don't get the manager that would do it. 

[communicate 2,703]

IMHO playing youth player is a conundrum.

You want to play more academy player but you want to be title contender. You want to play more youth but you want deep senior squad.

Playing youth especially straight from academy imo is a big gamble. Maybe there are only three title winning manager that really play a lot of youth, SAF, Wenger and maybe Van Gaal 

Everybody said Wenger is a perennial loser but Arsenal always promote their youth player. Iwobi,Coquelin, bellerin, wilshere,etc. They haven't challenged for title for ages but they always promote their youth.

The same thing with Van Gaal. He sold di maria,chicarito and van persie. Now  Rashford,Lingard, Bruno mensah has more chance to play but they are clearly not a title contender.

SAF is the only outlier, but he is like the Godfatther of Manchester United. He can do whatever he want. Howevery, the last time he won EPL, he bought Van Persie. By doing that he sacrificed Welbeck growth.

 

IMO, playing youth is a gamble. You need to hire manager that trust youth but at the same time you have to be ready to be 2nd fiddle team for a while. Then if luck is on your side, they will turn into a world class player  and you will dominate for a long time (Barcelona) , if not you will become 2nd fiddle team for a long time (Arsenal)

 

 

[chelseafan26 293]

31 minutes ago, communicate said:

IMHO playing youth player is a conundrum.

You want to play more academy player but you want to be title contender. You want to play more youth but you want deep senior squad.

Playing youth especially straight from academy imo is a big gamble. Maybe there are only three title winning manager that really play a lot of youth, SAF, Wenger and maybe Van Gaal 

Everybody said Wenger is a perennial loser but Arsenal always promote their youth player. Iwobi,Coquelin, bellerin, wilshere,etc. They haven't challenged for title for ages but they always promote their youth.

The same thing with Van Gaal. He sold di maria,chicarito and van persie. Now  Rashford,Lingard, Bruno mensah has more chance to play but they are clearly not a title contender.

SAF is the only outlier, but he is like the Godfatther of Manchester United. He can do whatever he want. Howevery, the last time he won EPL, he bought Van Persie. By doing that he sacrificed Welbeck growth.

 

IMO, playing youth is a gamble. You need to hire manager that trust youth but at the same time you have to be ready to be 2nd fiddle team for a while. Then if luck is on your side, they will turn into a world class player  and you will dominate for a long time (Barcelona) , if not you will become 2nd fiddle team for a long time (Arsenal)

 

 

I disagree a little on Wenger and Arsenal. Arsenal are not title contenders because of wenger's pathetic transfer dealing, not because of his youth policy. The youth has given arsenal some real gems like Bellerin and Coq. The problem is that even now wenger refuses to acknowledge the problem - A world class striker and a world class CB pairing. They have giroud upfront and koscienly is defending for 2 people at the back. Thats their problem. Blaming it on youth is incorrect. 

Look at spurs, They promoted youth and are today title pretenders. Kane, Alli, Rose, walker, Mason.

But i do agree that "instant" success and youth integration dont go hand in hand. But I am a regular at SB and I can vouch for a majority of 42,000 people saying that they will happily take a 2/3 year exile if it means having youth integration, style of play, identity and stability. 

[lucio 5,418]

4 hours ago, communicate said:

IMHO playing youth player is a conundrum.

You want to play more academy player but you want to be title contender. You want to play more youth but you want deep senior squad.

Playing youth especially straight from academy imo is a big gamble. Maybe there are only three title winning manager that really play a lot of youth, SAF, Wenger and maybe Van Gaal 

Everybody said Wenger is a perennial loser but Arsenal always promote their youth player. Iwobi,Coquelin, bellerin, wilshere,etc. They haven't challenged for title for ages but they always promote their youth.

The same thing with Van Gaal. He sold di maria,chicarito and van persie. Now  Rashford,Lingard, Bruno mensah has more chance to play but they are clearly not a title contender.

SAF is the only outlier, but he is like the Godfatther of Manchester United. He can do whatever he want. Howevery, the last time he won EPL, he bought Van Persie. By doing that he sacrificed Welbeck growth.

 

IMO, playing youth is a gamble. You need to hire manager that trust youth but at the same time you have to be ready to be 2nd fiddle team for a while. Then if luck is on your side, they will turn into a world class player  and you will dominate for a long time (Barcelona) , if not you will become 2nd fiddle team for a long time (Arsenal)

 

 

we don't need to play youth straight from the academy

we have the likes of christensen, who has put in star performances vs bayern, city, juventus

[LDN Blue 7,903]

6 hours ago, communicate said:

IMO, playing youth is a gamble. You need to hire manager that trust youth but at the same time you have to be ready to be 2nd fiddle team for a while. Then if luck is on your side, they will turn into a world class player  and you will dominate for a long time (Barcelona) , if not you will become 2nd fiddle team for a long time (Arsenal)

Yeah but to be fair, no-one expects these academy players to be first team players straight away and winning the title. But they should be back up choices at least and considered as such, no point in just having them train with the first team, they need exposure too. Instead of Pato we use Traore, instead of Oscar Loftus-Cheek, instead of Pedro we use Musonda etc. Because we're going to make first-team signings anyway. 

Also with Van Gaal at United, it's not he chose to use youth players instead of what he has it was more he was forced. Fair play to Rashford and co for stepping up, but he's only had to rely on them because he spent a ridiculous amount of money on players like Depay and couldn't utilise world class talent like Di Maria etc.

[communicate 2,703]

On 5/2/2016 at 9:09 PM, LDN Blue said:

Yeah but to be fair, no-one expects these academy players to be first team players straight away and winning the title. But they should be back up choices at least and considered as such, no point in just having them train with the first team, they need exposure too. Instead of Pato we use Traore, instead of Oscar Loftus-Cheek, instead of Pedro we use Musonda etc. Because we're going to make first-team signings anyway. 

Also with Van Gaal at United, it's not he chose to use youth players instead of what he has it was more he was forced. Fair play to Rashford and co for stepping up, but he's only had to rely on them because he spent a ridiculous amount of money on players like Depay and couldn't utilise world class talent like Di Maria etc.

It is absolutely fine to do that when you are not contending for title. Again,  back to Epl last 5 winner.(city, Chelsea, leciester, united)   I don't think we can say any of them really play a lot of youth

[Captain Ahmed 528]

The academy of Chelsea is a treasure. For sure, Conte will not integrate all these young players in the squad. 

[GodZola 630]

On 29/04/2016 at 6:51 PM, OhForAGreavsie said:

Who was, or was not, selected to play for Tottenham is a complete non argument. Neither you nor I know whether the players in our youth team would have been selected by Pochitino if they were at Spurs and neither do we know if the Spurs lads would have been selected if they were here. I have my thoughts and of course you do too but since we can't actually know, the Tottenham situation is proof of nothing either way.

Contrary to what you appear to be saying, every single manager in the world, bar none, makes a judgement about young players before giving them games. For every Spurs youngster selected by Pochitino, there must be half a dozen he has not selected. By your argument, the only way to know if development level players can cut it is to pick them. Are you therefore going to lambaste the Spurs boss because there are so many youngsters to whom he has not given a chance? The notion that the only way to judge a young player is to give him games is a recurrent, but stupid, one. Youngsters have to earn a chance and when they get it they have to do enough to earn another.

It is entirely evident that the club wants to promote from the academy but few have earned minutes, and none has made the most of them. Yet. My patience is not exhausted. If there are youngsters who, like you, have lost patience then by all means allow them to leave.

IMHO those half a dozen players are irrelevant that you mention Pochettino has not selected, the fundamental point here is that he has had the bollocks to select young players and come within a whisker of winning the title by giving them all a chance that they would not of got at Chelsea or most clubs. Let's take Dele Alli as an example, he's out performing just about every player in the PL - if he was on our books he'd be on loan somewhere & his talent probably lost for a few seasons if not for good, he is now going to the Euro's with every chance of being the next superstar. It's not a one off for Pochettino either, he was doing the exact same things at Southampton, left them in a great position & they made millions from selling young players he had introduced. (Yes without question my idea of our new appointment)

My point being that if Pochettino was our manager you can be sure there would of been several of our promising youngsters introduced this season, what's absolutely mind numbing about the last 10 or more games is that they are all dead rubber and what a better time to introduce them, could they really do any worse than the slow & cumbersome Mikel or the one in ten performance from Oscar likewise Dave or Ivanovich at left & right back respectively just to name a few?! Those 10 or so games with no pressure would be invaluable experience for next season, you would also find them out without any damage, admittedly there's a lot to be said about talent however they also have to have that hunger, desire, aggression, self belief and that gritty willingness to succeed.

Which brings me on to the thread, most won't agree but I'm all for the club to go down an entirely different route next season, it's time for patience & I hate to say it but we should follow the Spurs model & now start introducing some of the wealth of talent we have in our ranks, the hierarchy should sell all those unhappy & dead wood players that have been taking up spaces for too long (reinvest in a few quality players) give some of those spaces to our talented young players, yep we're more than likely to have a couple of season's without winning anything however sooner rather than later these kids will turn in to gems - it's my belief that you don't win back to back European trophies with out having something? Notwithstanding the fact that these lads have grown up together, they know each other inside out, they will have that bond & a team spirit we haven't witnessed since our spine has long since gone.

Unfortunately it'll probably be the same old next season with the Conte being bought players he doesn't want, those he wants out will remain and an objective of top 4 minimum rendering introducing youth futile! The hierarchy are consistent I will give them that......90 odd quid for a new shirt - talk about fleecing the fans after the worst shitty season!

 

[Tomo 21,733]

On 01/05/2016 at 11:22 AM, Muzchap said:

The problem is there are no absolutes in this. Sometimes a player will shine given a chance. Kane at Millwall - not many watching him at Millwall would correlate that player with the player we see before us today... Raheem Sterling, has gone downhill faster than Eddie the Eagle (great film btw), it worked for him at Loserpool, but hasn't for City IMHO. 

I kinda do agree with Ray on this - sometimes, you just need to chuck the kids in and sink/swim - at least then they have been given an opportunity, which is all an Acadamy player wants - if they blow it, such is life, even our expensive signings have a propensity to blow it  so there should be no shame there  

yeah Butch is cracking on in years now and it's easy to want things to be like they were in the old days, but 4-4-2 has pretty much gone now in favour of other more exotic forms of formation. But I still love teams that play with width and fast wingers - wish we would play like that?

Bit harsh on Sterling, first season at 20 years old, he will be a fantastic player.

And that isn't the case for me, when I was a teenager, their was a group of about 30-40 of us that played football up the park almost every day (obviously not every one was out every day but that was how many came up regularly), Wembley, matches, head and Vols etc, two players stood out, both of which has trials for Plymouth one even making a couple of appearances (although he fell back in oblivion), but if every person in our group was told two of you will be pro footballers when you're older, everyone to a man (well boy at the time ) would have said those two, and if anyone said otherwise then they were quite simply trolling.

Which brings me to the "throw them in see if they sink or swim" argument, if a group of teenagers can spot the most talented players who have a chance of getting somewhere, thensurely highly qualified coaches will know who in our academy have the potential to succeed and who are complete write offs, and that's before we factor in the data they have access to in the modern day.

[Muzchap 8,966]

4 hours ago, Tomo said:

Bit harsh on Sterling, first season at 20 years old, he will be a fantastic player.

And that isn't the case for me, when I was a teenager, their was a group of about 30-40 of us that played football up the park almost every day (obviously not every one was out every day but that was how many came up regularly), Wembley, matches, head and Vols etc, two players stood out, both of which has trials for Plymouth one even making a couple of appearances (although he fell back in oblivion), but if every person in our group was told two of you will be pro footballers when you're older, everyone to a man (well boy at the time ) would have said those two, and if anyone said otherwise then they were quite simply trolling.

Which brings me to the "throw them in see if they sink or swim" argument, if a group of teenagers can spot the most talented players who have a chance of getting somewhere, thensurely highly qualified coaches will know who in our academy have the potential to succeed and who are complete write offs, and that's before we factor in the data they have access to in the modern day.

Maybe - but he hasn't done much IMHO - maybe he needed a season to settle in

Agree and exactly the same thought process, except 2 of my ' mates' (haven't seen them for over 20 years now) were offered professional contracts, (Arsenal and Preston), 1 ruined their chances with drugs, the other hated it and went to Uni instead. Now the others, including myself couldn't believe it - how could you give up that opportunity? But everyday people make bad decisions, with even more money at a young age - things have probably got even more tricky. It's a crying shame that this happens. Another friend was top 3 in Britain for Tennis, he won a scholarship to study in the US and I personally watched him thrash Tim Henman around the court, 2 years in USA - he got hooked on Coke and other drugs and came back as an addict and is now an Estate Agent. As his family is very wealthy, he says he doesn't care - but I find that hard to believe, again haven't spoken to him for over 18 years, just annoyed me that somebody with that talent could squander it so badly...

i guess that was the point I was trying to make, talent alone is useless, you need the whole package and to identify of the person has that, sometimes you need to chuck them in at the deep end. 

I have left the names of these people out deliberately - they are probably leading happy and contented lives and would be unfair of me to name them on a forum. 

[Fernando 6,457]

Keep saying it, it's all about the manager. 

Our club is stupid, they want youth but keep getting managers that suck for this. Mourinho and hiddink. 

I will not be surprised if Conte follows that same pattern of his predecessors. 

[Term-X 7,891]

Seems you can't get into the first team as a youth unless you resemble an NBA player, it's almost as if their is a height/physique ratio to pass before touching the turf at the Bridge. Scary, considering all the Messi/Hazard-esc players that may slip through the net.

[Tautvix 1,321]

First of all, no team will dominate English football for years.

Secondly, manager expectations are to high at Chelsea because the owner. You have to win titles because otherwise you will be fired so no manager risks playing youth.

[Captain Ahmed 528]

Loftus-Cheek's 2015-16 season in review

Quote

Appearances: 7 starts (+10 as substitute).
Minutes: 405 in Premier League; 206 in domestic cups; 77 in Champions League.
Statistics (per 90 minutes, Premier League): 50.51 attempted passes (88% pass completion); 2.49 shots (1.07 on target); 2.91 fouls suffered.

One of Chelsea's best prospects to emerge from our youth ranks, Ruben Loftus-Cheek got his first real chances last season, after impressing in pre-season tours even as far back as 2013.  The 6ft 3in midfielder made his professional debut as a late sub for Cesc Fàbregas in a Champions League group stage match in December 2014. He went on to make three further appearances for the first-team that season, including starts against Liverpool and West Bromwich when Chelsea already had the Premier League and League Cup titles in their possession.Given Chelsea's efforts at establishing a huge development network of loans to help players (at least in theory) progress by exposing them to real competition and plenty of playing time, Loftus-Cheek was a prime candidate for a major loan move in the summer transfer window. But manager José Mourinho and the club decided to keep the player at the club instead so he could improve under our own watchful eyes, even if by the same token, he would not be getting as much actual playing time as he would've gotten elsewhere.Amidst public challenges from the manager -- RLC's "attitude" has been questioned repeatedly since his lackadaisical efforts in our post-season games back in June -- as well as unkept promises of changes within the team after our crushing loss to Southampton in the first half of the season, Loftus-Cheek only managed 5 appearances - 3 starts and 2 coming from the bench - while Mourinho was still in charge. Matters went from bad to worse when the realization set in that the young man's contract was expiring in 18 months.  The "tough love" approach by Mourinho coupled with a lack of first team chances weren't doing the situation any favours.Mourinho's departure didn't immediately improve the outlook for Loftus-Cheek, but eventually he did get a few opportunities from Guus Hiddink.  Stamina was still a problem for the 20-year-old Englishman, exacerbated by his lack of match fitness from the first half of the season, and he was finding a bit of trouble trying to assert himself against non-youth opposition. Nevertheless, the Chelsea Academy product finally signed a new five-year deal in February, with the rumoured wages ranging from £40,000 to £60,000-per-week.Loftus-Cheek finished the season with 17 appearances (7 starts) and driven by our restless desires to see "one of our own" make it at the club for the first time in two decades, was even almost voted the WAGNH Player of the Year.  Make no mistake however, there is true, immense talent here.  The key is trying to unlock it.

The Good: Loftus-Cheek's first Premier League goal of his career, scored against Aston Villa in our 4-0 win over the relegated side. All in all a great showing from the Boy in Blue (who wore black at the time).

The (not so) Bad: Performances such as the last match of the season, against Leicester City, failing to influence proceedings on the ball and not working hard enough off the ball.

Verdict: Given how badly things went not only for Loftus-Cheek but for Chelsea in general in the first half of the season, it's safe to assume that he could have gotten more playing time - and possibly developed a bit further - had he went on loan along with other Chelsea prospects either to another Premier League club or abroad.  The increased opportunities in the second half of the season were more than welcome.

The big question remains what will be Loftus-Cheek's main position as a professional player. Having come through the academy as a central midfielder, nowadays both club and country seem intent on deploying him further forward, as a No.10.  And yet his size, his style, and his skillset seem far more suited to a box-to-box role, in the mould of a Paul Pogba.  Hopefully there is a proper plan for his development in place.The other big question is whether to keep him at the club and see if Conte can help him make the same leap that Paul Pogba did under his guidance, or whether to take a few more guaranteed minutes somewhere else on loan.  Either way, it's a difficult decision, and if Chelsea get this wrong, it will be yet another stick with which to (justifiably? unjustifiably?) beat Michael Emenalo.

weaintgotnohistory