The Problem in Chelsea 4-2-3-1 Formation

[SeB 1,281]

http://thinkfootball...elseas-4-2-3-1/

A good article on the problems we have with the 4-2-3-1.

Mine's better

http://mypremierleag...els-de-chelsea/

Also, we need to play a formation with more than 1 Striker, as If he is not having a good game, we are in many ways, FUCKED.

Most top teams play with 2 CF's.

Dont know why we cant do the same.

We need to have more people forward who can do stuff. Sturridge and Torres upfront can be a healthy partnership.

Playing 2 upfront isn't allowed by the quality of your 2 centre forwards. The main thing is the midfield, if you have 2 midfielders who are sound tactically, covers a lot of ground, have a huge volume of play and are good to defend & distribute you can play 442. If you haven't those 2 midfielders you're fucked.

Before thinking about what your forwards can do, you have to know how to gain the ball and how to keep it

[Wavy Crockett 190]

identify problem: Lampard, Mikel

solve problem: replace them

throw in some Azpi at RB for good measure

[Jase 43,479]

Mine's better

http://mypremierleag...els-de-chelsea/

Don't understand French.

[SeB 1,281]

Don't understand French.

Look at the pictures, I even think one can understand it just with the load of pictures

[communicate 2,703]

THIS!!!

'communicate' - he DID NOT track back on numerous occassions - Bosingwa went past him! Sodon't talk shit about Ramires being an excellent defender on the wing - the guy looks lost and completely fucking clueless out there... WHY - because it aint his natural fucking position!

Edit: added communicate's name in - to make post clearer

Edit2 : Dam I sound angry! Apologies...

I did not watch the 2nd half so I am not sure but I thought in the 1st half he played ok. I never said that he is a super defender but he is very disciplined in tracking back full back.

[SeB 1,281]

Ramires is very quick and can cover the full back (that's not litterally a covering but in that case, Ramires' speed is the slow defenders's positionning sense), he plays a huge part to maintain balance in midfield considering that the left flank is constantly out of position.

He's not at his best offensively on a flank because he's inconsistent (can do great suff or proper crap). But one just cannot deny his impact on the team balance

[communicate 2,703]

Ramires is very quick and can cover the full back (that's not litterally a covering but in that case, Ramires' speed is the slow defenders's positionning sense), he plays a huge part to maintain balance in midfield considering that the left flank is constantly out of position.

He's not at his best offensively on a flank because he's inconsistent (can do great suff or proper crap). But one just cannot deny his impact on the team balance

Good post. He is there to give us balance because rdm like to play more defensive.

Btw as far as your reply to me regarding mikel, I don't think team try to press mikel

[SeB 1,281]

Good post. He is there to give us balance because rdm like to play more defensive.

Btw as far as your reply to me regarding mikel, I don't think team try to press mikel

You're kidding right ?

That's what the teams we face do every game since 2010 and the start of Ancelotti's second season... Center backs are far away, there's only one player in the central zone... one'd be mad not to press him!

My answer was rather when he's going to distribute, not when he receives the ball in dangerous position by the way

[communicate 2,703]

You're kidding right ?

That's what the teams we face do every game since 2010 and the start of Ancelotti's second season... Center backs are far away, there's only one player in the central zone... one'd be mad not to press him!

My answer was rather when he's going to distribute, not when he receives the ball in dangerous position by the way

Maybe I am wwrong but I thought a Madrid and I think it was reading did not try to press mikel at all

[SeB 1,281]

Maybe I am wwrong but I thought a Madrid and I think it was reading did not try to press mikel at all

Guthrie has been played in Mikel's zone, in support of Pogrebnyak especially for that purpose

But that's not as clear in 4231 as in 433, in 433 he was really targeted

[YouNameIt 1,511]

if lampard is to be played in a 4-2-3-1 then he should be here:

Moses/mata - Lampard - Hazard

Torres

[kellzfresh 7,229]

true blue, you gave a very good analysis of the situation.

The real problem here is roberto di matteo's team selections.

teams that use the 4-2-3-1 successfully are bayern munich, madrid and mancity.

bayern munich have

schweinstiger-gustavo

robben-muller-ribery

gomez

madrid have

xabi alonso-khedira

dimaria-ozil-ronaldo

higuain

mancity have

yaya toure-rodwell

silva-tevez-nasri

aguero

the simillarities are that

1. they all have a long range passer in schweinstiger or alonso or yaya

2. the three behind the striker are ALL ATTACK MINDED.

1. We dont have any long range passer

2. we have a box to box player like khedira and yayatoure (ramires)

3. You are perfectly right, lampard is too attack minded to play there. he will fit better at the attacking midfield.

4. Lampard is an attacking midfielder not a defensive one what dimatteo is doing is like telling ozil to play alonso's position. he will always go foward because that is what he is used to.

5. Ramires is not playing well this season. Because he is out of position too. he plays CM for brazil and benfica.

6. Dimatteo is was defence minded against a relegation team qpr when manchester united will play nani, kagawa, vanpersie and valencia against such teams.

Di matteo knows this problem. He is not blind. He is just afraid of what happened to AVB with lampard. So unfortunately this problem is not going away soon.

I wish he could use this formation

azapuleta-luiz-terry-cole

mikel-ramires

mata-lampard-hazard

torres

This formation will solve dimatteo's problem first hand since i know he is a coward to tell lampard that he doesnt fit.

It will balance every thing back

This is what i really want

mikel-ramires

moses-mata-hazard

torres/sturridge

This formation is the best, ramires will stay back and keep the midfield mobile, mata and hazard will link up and switch positions often and moses will provide quality crosses like a true good winger. (Something chelsea lost when robben left us, some freakin width to provide energy in the flanks like man united's valencia)

This is the best formation for our group of players against smaller opposition(4-3-3)

oscar-mikel-lampard

mata- torres - hazard

1. This will give us the possession for sure. Few teams will out possess us not just ordinary teams like qpr did this weekend.

2. We will be back to or 4-3-3 which will perfectly fit oscar and lampard better

3. More midfield players = more control like barcelona

4. I just pray dimatteo can use dis

Oscar is a starter in brazil good enough to keep ganso and lucas moura out of the team. Why the **** is he not playin as a substitute at the very least. He reminds me of fabregas and he is even faster. We are freaking wasting a real talent here.

[dumps 284]

true blue, you gave a very good analysis of the situation.

The real problem here is roberto di matteo's team selections.

teams that use the 4-2-3-1 successfully are bayern munich, madrid and mancity.

bayern munich have

schweinstiger-gustavo

robben-muller-ribery

gomez

madrid have

xabi alonso-khedira

dimaria-ozil-ronaldo

higuain

mancity have

yaya toure-rodwell

silva-tevez-nasri

aguero

the simillarities are that

1. they all have a long range passer in schweinstiger or alonso or yaya

2. the three behind the striker are ALL ATTACK MINDED.

1. We dont have any long range passer

2. we have a box to box player like khedira and yayatoure (ramires)

3. You are perfectly right, lampard is too attack minded to play there. he will fit better at the attacking midfield.

4. Lampard is an attacking midfielder not a defensive one what dimatteo is doing is like telling ozil to play alonso's position. he will always go foward because that is what he is used to.

5. Ramires is not playing well this season. Because he is out of position too. he plays CM for brazil and benfica.

6. Dimatteo is was defence minded against a relegation team qpr when manchester united will play nani, kagawa, vanpersie and valencia against such teams.

Di matteo knows this problem. He is not blind. He is just afraid of what happened to AVB with lampard. So unfortunately this problem is not going away soon.

I wish he could use this formation

azapuleta-luiz-terry-cole

mikel-ramires

mata-lampard-hazard

torres

This formation will solve dimatteo's problem first hand since i know he is a coward to tell lampard that he doesnt fit.

It will balance every thing back

This is what i really want

mikel-ramires

moses-mata-hazard

torres/sturridge

This formation is the best, ramires will stay back and keep the midfield mobile, mata and hazard will link up and switch positions often and moses will provide quality crosses like a true good winger. (Something chelsea lost when robben left us, some freakin width to provide energy in the flanks like man united's valencia)

This is the best formation for our group of players against smaller opposition(4-3-3)

oscar-mikel-lampard

mata- torres - hazard

1. This will give us the possession for sure. Few teams will out possess us not just ordinary teams like qpr did this weekend.

2. We will be back to or 4-3-3 which will perfectly fit oscar and lampard better

3. More midfield players = more control like barcelona

4. I just pray dimatteo can use dis

Oscar is a starter in brazil good enough to keep ganso and lucas moura out of the team. Why the **** is he not playin as a substitute at the very least. He reminds me of fabregas and he is even faster. We are freaking wasting a real talent here.

/thread

[EskWeston 696]

if lampard is to be played in a 4-2-3-1 then he should be here:

Moses/mata - Lampard - Hazard

Torres

Yes, as both you and Kellzfresh have said Frank is an attacking midfielder and should be played there. The problem there is that Hazard, Mata and Oscar are ALL better options that him now. What we are doing (or more importantly what RDM is doing) is desperately trying to find a way to shoehorn Frank into the starting 11. I am sorry but i don't care who you are or what you have done, times move on and the best TEAM should always be sent out. We could very easily play in a team with Hazard, Mata and Oscar behind Torres in a similar way to the teams Kellzfresh posted above do, but we have to have right 2 midfielders behind them otherwise it is pointless. We are now taking away an attacking option to allow Lamps to play every game.

Just once would like to see Ramires or Romeu alongside Mikel and 3 proper attacking midfielders behind Torres.

[TorontoChelsea 4,064]

Yes, as both you and Kellzfresh have said Frank is an attacking midfielder and should be played there. The problem there is that Hazard, Mata and Oscar are ALL better options that him now. What we are doing (or more importantly what RDM is doing) is desperately trying to find a way to shoehorn Frank into the starting 11. I am sorry but i don't care who you are or what you have done, times move on and the best TEAM should always be sent out. We could very easily play in a team with Hazard, Mata and Oscar behind Torres in a similar way to the teams Kellzfresh posted above do, but we have to have right 2 midfielders behind them otherwise it is pointless. We are now taking away an attacking option to allow Lamps to play every game.

Just once would like to see Ramires or Romeu alongside Mikel and 3 proper attacking midfielders behind Torres.

That;s not remotely it. If this were all about Lampard, RDM could easily switch to a 4-3-3 with Mikel, Ramires, and Lampard in the midfield and Hazard and Mata on the wings. He doesn't because he wants Hazard and Mata running things from the #10 spot.This is about RDM thinking that the 4-2-3-1 is the best formation for Chelsea and the team literally having no other options for the deep lying midfielder. That position requires creativity, vision, and long passing ability. Romeu and Ramires would be awful for that position. They have basically the opposite abilities for what is required from that position. This is a problem caused by Chelsea spending 80M pounds on three players who all want to be/should be playing right behind the striker. Because the squad is so imbalanced, RDM has limited options. This is also because Lampard played very well last season and for the past decade, has been man of the match two games in a row for England, so three mediocre to poor performances in the league doesn't make decent managers panic.

It's amazing that so many Chelsea supporters have bought the media conspiracy theories of last season. AVB was not fired because of Lampard and Terry being pissed off, He was fired because his ideas didn't work. He was fired because he couldn't communicate to his players. But most of all, he was fired because Chelsea were losing. Lampard is not playing because of some conspiracy, he's playing because RDM thinks he's the best man he's got for that role.

[EskWeston 696]

That;s not remotely it. If this were all about Lampard, RDM could easily switch to a 4-3-3 with Mikel, Ramires, and Lampard in the midfield and Hazard and Mata on the wings. He doesn't because he wants Hazard and Mata running things from the #10 spot.This is about RDM thinking that the 4-2-3-1 is the best formation for Chelsea and the team literally having no other options for the deep lying midfielder. That position requires creativity, vision, and long passing ability. Romeu and Ramires would be awful for that position. They have basically the opposite abilities for what is required from that position. This is a problem caused by Chelsea spending 80M pounds on three players who all want to be/should be playing right behind the striker. Because the squad is so imbalanced, RDM has limited options. This is also because Lampard played very well last season and for the past decade, has been man of the match two games in a row for England, so three mediocre to poor performances in the league doesn't make decent managers panic.

It's amazing that so many Chelsea supporters have bought the media conspiracy theories of last season. AVB was not fired because of Lampard and Terry being pissed off, He was fired because his ideas didn't work. He was fired because he couldn't communicate to his players. But most of all, he was fired because Chelsea were losing. Lampard is not playing because of some conspiracy, he's playing because RDM thinks he's the best man he's got for that role.

So Ramires and Romeu would be awful for that position and should not play there, but Lampard played well last season and for the past decade, been man of the match for 2 England games so SHOULD play there, even though he does not have the discipline to play the role. I am not slagging off Frank because he is one of our best ever players. But there is no getting away from the fact that he is not suitable for the role. Personally i think Romeu and Ramires would be better suited to the role. With 2 proper holding midfielders i see no reason why we cannot play a fluid 3 ahead of them.

I see many opinions of what the role should be, it seems that the only player to fit the profile is Pirlo which is silly, to my mid the club and RDM clearly wanted to play with 3 attacking midfielders which is why we have spent so much money buying them, behind them we need players to make the play tick, move the ball around and link up to the 3 attacking mids. The article at the start of this thread explains perfectly what is gong wrong.

RDM has PLENTY of options. Tons of them, but we have not seen any attempt to try anything other than switching to 4-3-3 on Saturday which worked much better in the end. The problem is (and it is something Chelsea do frustratingly often) is putting square pegs in round holes. We have so many attacking midfield options there is NO reason to play a left back or a central midfielder in those roles. To my mind there are 2 basic options, stick with the formation and take Lampard out the midfeild 2, or switch to a 4-3-3 to accomodate him.

[YouNameIt 1,511]

Yes, as both you and Kellzfresh have said Frank is an attacking midfielder and should be played there. The problem there is that Hazard, Mata and Oscar are ALL better options that him now. What we are doing (or more importantly what RDM is doing) is desperately trying to find a way to shoehorn Frank into the starting 11. I am sorry but i don't care who you are or what you have done, times move on and the best TEAM should always be sent out. We could very easily play in a team with Hazard, Mata and Oscar behind Torres in a similar way to the teams Kellzfresh posted above do, but we have to have right 2 midfielders behind them otherwise it is pointless. We are now taking away an attacking option to allow Lamps to play every game.

Just once would like to see Ramires or Romeu alongside Mikel and 3 proper attacking midfielders behind Torres.

I agree with everything you say, and lamps shouldnt be a regular starter. However, in some games his experience is needed. Plus we need to rotate our squad. And when he is to be played, then he should be used as a CAM.

[KonohasOrangeFlash 2,607]

If we ended up changing to 4-3-3 I'd have Oscar over Lampard anyway. The bottom line is he should just not be starting anymore. The old guard has STILL not been phased out completely yet for god's sake. Ramires, Oscar, Mikel all offer something that warrants them starting over a seemingly past it Lampard.