🇧🇷 Oscar

[Daniel1980 1,425]

I don't think the Spanish NT is the best way to judge a player's creativity. Koke is a very direct player a la Cesc and when I've watched Spain recently it seems like they still don't know whether they want to play a more direct style to accomate the likes of Costa and Koke or whether they want to play their tika-taka football. Where are you getting your stats from by the way and do you have a detailed breakdown because I suspect we dominate possession in the final third much more than they do.

You can't just ignore set pieces because that's a huge part of Koke and Atletico's game. You see it with us even - when Costa and Luis get to the byline they will very often just hit it against the defender wanting to win a corner (all players do this of course but I've noticed Atletico players tend to do it a lot). If Oscar was that good from set pieces he'd be a hell of a lot more useful. Koke does all the defensive work Oscar does and still does more going forward relative to the demands of his team whereas Oscar is often a passenger attacking-wise. I would swap them in a heartbeat.

Yeah, Spanish NT is a mess at the moment, but still, he doesn't seem to do all that well when he has a lot of possession.

Actually, according to WhoScored, we and Atletico have practically identical "Action Zones": 31% in the attacking third. I know that Koke creates the majority of Atletico's goals from set pieces, but that doesn't make Koke a creative playmaker - it makes him a great set piece taker, is all. We aren't doing too bad in that regard either, but unlike Atletico, we score a lot more goals from open play too. And in open play Koke doesn't bring that much to the team. The fact that Atletico scored 12 goals from open play in half a season is very poor, regardless of their set pieces - we scored 30, with about the same amount of possession as Atletico. It says nothing good about Atletico players' creativity.

Look, I know where you're coming from - Oscar isn't the most creative player around and I'd be happy if we get someone who could offer more in attack, but Koke isn't the answer. Oscar has his flaws, but he created 27 chances from open play this season. Koke created just a bit over 10. Regardless of Koke's superiority in set pieces, he should do more in open play to be called a playmaker. Cesc has created over 40 chances from open play in addition to the set piece chances. That's what a playmaker is supposed to do.

[The Chels 2,502]

Yeah, Spanish NT is a mess at the moment, but still, he doesn't seem to do all that well when he has a lot of possession.

Actually, according to WhoScored, we and Atletico have practically identical "Action Zones": 31% in the attacking third. I know that Koke creates the majority of Atletico's goals from set pieces, but that doesn't make Koke a creative playmaker - it makes him a great set piece taker, is all. We aren't doing too bad in that regard either, but unlike Atletico, we score a lot more goals from open play too. And in open play Koke doesn't bring that much to the team. The fact that Atletico scored 12 goals from open play in half a season is very poor, regardless of their set pieces - we scored 30, with about the same amount of possession as Atletico. It says nothing good about Atletico players' creativity.

Look, I know where you're coming from - Oscar isn't the most creative player around and I'd be happy if we get someone who could offer more in attack, but Koke isn't the answer. Oscar has his flaws, but he created 27 chances from open play this season. Koke created just a bit over 10. Regardless of Koke's superiority in set pieces, he should do more in open play to be called a playmaker. Cesc has created over 40 chances from open play in addition to the set piece chances. That's what a playmaker is supposed to do.

I watch every Atletico game because I really admire Simeone's work and their tactical nous, and I do feel like quite a lot of those stats are misleading. Atleti are a very clinical team which means they don't require Koke to create so many chances from open play. The fact that they have Mandzukic up front now instead of Costa only adds to the significance of set pieces for them and their play is heavily orientated towards winning free kicks and using clever set piece routines rather than on creating lots of chances from open play like ours is. Hence just because Koke doesn't create so many chances from open play doesn't necessarily mean he can't (he is very good and decisive with the ball) and I would suggest that if he were given the number 10 role in our team his attacking output would increase a lot.

Another thing you have to take into account is that Atleti always overload defensively, even at home against lesser sides which means Koke (who plays out wide) is always behind the ball when the opposition have it and he has to press amd track back a hell of a lot. Oscar does a good defensive job for us but he doesn't need to do as much as the Atletico forward players, who arguably have to defend more even the likes of Ivanovic and Cesc (which is why they are a more defensively stable side, conceding significantly fewer shots on goal than we do). It probably sounds like I'm making excuses for him and while I am willing to admit that while he is the not the best playmaker, he is a lot better than those stats suggest and I see a lot of potential in him. It's just my personal opinion though and I understand why you might think otherwise.

[Daniel1980 1,425]

I watch every Atletico game because I really admire Simeone's work and their tactical nous, and I do feel like quite a lot of those stats are misleading. Atleti are a very clinical team which means they don't require Koke to create so many chances from open play. The fact that they have Mandzukic up front now instead of Costa only adds to the significance of set pieces for them and their play is heavily orientated towards winning free kicks and using clever set piece routines rather than on creating lots of chances from open play like ours is. Hence just because Koke doesn't create so many chances from open play doesn't necessarily mean he can't and I would suggest that if he were given the number 10 role in our team his attacking output would increase a lot.

Another thing you have to take into account is that Atleti always overload defensively, even at home against lesser sides which means Koke (who plays out wide) is always behind the ball when the opposition have it and he has to press amd track back a hell of a lot. Oscar does a good defensive job for us but he doesn't need to do as much as the Atletico forward players, who arguably have to defend more even the likes of Ivanovic and Cesc (which is why they are a more defensively stable side, conceding significantly fewer shots on goal than we do). It probably sounds like I'm making excuses for him and while I am willing to admit that while he is the not the best playmaker, he is a lot better than those stats suggest and I see a lot of potential in him. It's just my personal opinion though and I understand why you might think otherwise.

Don't get me wrong: I think Koke is a very promising talented midfielder, but if we are to replace Oscar, I would prefer to have someone a bit more decisive creatively at CAM. We already have Willian who is not decisive enough. Though I think using Koke in 4-3-3 with Matic and Fabregas would work, but IMO, Koke cannot be the leading midfielder and the playmaker to dictate the play. We could also play him in the pivot next to Matic and move Fabregas to the hole to do the playmaking from higher up the pitch, but Koke should not be a direct replacement for Oscar - creatively it wouldn't be much of an upgrade if he plays #10.

[Barbara 15,149]

I watch every Atletico game because I really admire Simeone's work and their tactical nous, and I do feel like quite a lot of those stats are misleading. Atleti are a very clinical team which means they don't require Koke to create so many chances from open play. The fact that they have Mandzukic up front now instead of Costa only adds to the significance of set pieces for them which again means they don't need to rely on creating lots of chances from open play. Hence just because Koke doesn't create so many chances doesn't necessarily mean he can't and I would argue that if he were given the number 10 role in our team his attacking output would increase a lot.

Another thing you have to take into account is that Atleti always overload defensively, even at home against lesser sides which means Koke (who plays out wide) is always behind the ball when the opposition have it and he has to press and track back a hell of a lot. Oscar does a good defensive job for us but he doesn't need to do as much as the Atletico forward players, who probably do more defending than the likes of Ivanovic and Cesc (which is why they are a more defensively stable side, conceding significantly fewer shots on goal than we do). It probably sounds like I'm making excuses for him and I am willing to admit that he is the not the best playmaker but he is a lot better than those stats suggest and I see a lot of potential in him. It's just my personal opinion though and I understand why you might think otherwise.

I've watched them recently and I disagree. Bring him here to be a playmaker and before the season ends his thread will look a lot like Willian's with people saying we overpayed, that despite being a good player and a workhouse he doesn't create enough.

You're overestimating his creative abilities a lot (as well as Atletico as a whole) and basically suggesting a gamble because if he ain't proven as an open play playmaker he's a gamble and we can't afford one.

If we can't wait for Oscar to develop, we can't wait for a gamble to be proven either. If we're signing an AM to solve our creativity issues, it has to be a proven one.

[The Skipper 20,609]

Isco would be the ideal AM. Isco would be an amazing signing tbh.

If I could sign two from Madrid it'd be him and Varane.

[The Chels 2,502]

Don't get me wrong: I think Koke is a very promising talented midfielder, but if we are to replace Oscar, I would prefer to have someone a bit more decisive creatively at CAM. We already have Willian who is not decisive enough. Though I think using Koke in 4-3-3 with Matic and Fabregas would work, but IMO, Koke cannot be the leading midfielder and the playmaker to dictate the play. We could also play him in the pivot next to Matic and move Fabregas to the hole to do the playmaking from higher up the pitch, but Koke should not be a direct replacement for Oscar - creatively it wouldn't be much of an upgrade if he plays #10.

I've watched them recently and I disagree. Bring him here to be a playmaker and before the season ends his thread will look a lot like Willian's with people saying we overpayed, that despite being a good player and a workhouse he doesn't create enough.

You're overestimating his creative abilities a lot (as well as Atletico as a whole) and basically suggesting a gamble because if he ain't proven as an open play playmaker he's a gamble and we can't afford one.

If we can't wait for Oscar to develop, we can't wait for a gamble to be proven either. If we're signing an AM to solve our creativity issues, it has to be a proven one.

Fair enough. Neither of you think Koke would be creative enough to replace Oscar in our team but there are very few AMs out there who would provide the defensive workrate and playmaking abilities we demand from our number 10. An alternative and better short-term option is to simply depend less on the AMs for the attacks and more on our FBs (Azpi-Luis) but doubt that's going to happen.

[iseah100 5,612]

Isco would be the ideal AM. Isco would be an amazing signing tbh.

If I could sign two from Madrid it'd be him and Varane.

Madrid have a fucking amazing team.

[Barbara 15,149]

Fair enough. Neither of you think Koke would be creative enough to replace Oscar in our team but there are very few AMs out there who would provide the defensive workrate and playmaking abilities we demand from our number 10. An alternative and better short-term option is to simply depend less on the AMs for the attacks and more on our FBs (Azpi-Luis) but doubt that's going to happen.

Actually a better and simpler solution is to remove Iva from the RB and therefore demand less from our RW defensively which we all know won't happen. The day Mourinho stops playing Iva as a RB is the day I'll start having bikini pics as my avatar

[The Chels 2,502]

Actually a better and simpler solution is to remove Iva from the RB and therefore demand less from our RW defensively which we all know won't happen. The day Mourinho stops playing Iva as a RB is the day I'll start having bikini pics as my avatar

If Ivanovic were dropped from RB we'd be playing Azpi-Luis, no? But I'm pretty sure Ivanovic will remain the number 1 RB for as long as Jose is still in charge.

[Stingray 9,441]

Actually a better and simpler solution is to remove Iva from the RB and therefore demand less from our RW defensively which we all know won't happen. The day Mourinho stops playing Iva as a RB is the day I'll start having bikini pics as my avatar

Aha!

[Barbara 15,149]

Aha!

I know what I'm risking here, it's not going to happen.

For the odd game such as the Sporting match he'll deploy Luis + Azpi, but he won't simply drop Iva from RB on a regular basis.

I'm so certain about it that I don't even have one single bikini picture - even if I wanted to post them, I know neither will never happen...

[Beepu 1,714]

Isco would be the ideal AM. Isco would be an amazing signing tbh.

If I could sign two from Madrid it'd be him and Varane.

I remember that one of the reasons Mata was sold because he didn't do enough work defensively compared to Oscar, would Isco result in the same problem?

[manpe 10,861]

Actually a better and simpler solution is to remove Iva from the RB and therefore demand less from our RW defensively which we all know won't happen. The day Mourinho stops playing Iva as a RB is the day I'll start having bikini pics as my avatar

On how many levels is it wrong that I now want Bran to start sucking so incredibly that Jose would have no other choice? I should get my priorities straight...

Anyway, bookmarked.

[Victor Von Doom 258]

I remember that one of the reasons Mata was sold because he didn't do enough work defensively compared to Oscar, would Isco result in the same problem?

Nope. Isco works hard for the team

[Barbara 15,149]

On how many levels is it wrong that I now want Bran to start sucking so incredibly that Jose would have no other choice? I should get my priorities straight...

Anyway, bookmarked.

He's been quite sloppy lately... worse than this only if he starts showing Swansea-FA cup performances every other week...

[Shakez 755]

Isco would be the ideal AM. Isco would be an amazing signing tbh.

If I could sign two from Madrid it'd be him and Varane.

Not going to happen. Why would Madrid sell those 2?

[spyros_cfc 52]

shockingly bad so far. Just awful decision and bad touches.

WHAT is wrong with him?!

[didierforever 7,349]

what a performance so far!!!

a fucking ballon dor for this game itself.

[RoyalBlues 4,050]

One or two bad performance, and then he is not good enough for us. Okay.

Jose is the clueless person in the world to give him the contract extension just a couple months ago.

I thought he is doing fine until the contract extension signing. After that he has been in 'ill period', it is harsh to said he is 'not good enough this season' imo.

Edit : I've got my mind back

[lucio 5,418]

what a performance so far!!!

a fucking ballon dor for this game itself.

yeah goal and assist. good stuff?