Formation and Tactics Discussion

[Rahul Haque 57]

fascination with mikel? he doesn't lose the ball and is simply solid. lampard and mikel is by far our best CM duo. lampard has been our best player arguably in a miserable pre season. the problem is with lampard at 34, he has his limitations and cannot dictate the game on his own. he looks so much better with mata ahead of him and soon enough he will have mata, oscar and hazard ahead of him.

[Naked Mole Rat 437]

Both Mikel and Lampard are quality players, and I don't think it's right to fault one of them for our double pivot problem. It's just that when they're both occupying the pivot, we severely lack pace, which causes a lack of drive forward and inadequate tracking back. I think throwing in someone pacy like Ramires or maybe even Essien in the midfield should help (ex: Lampard & Essien or Ramires & Mikel), but I don't think Mikel and Lampard will make such a great duo.

[OneMoSalah 8,886]

I posted something about formations I think we could use instead of the 4-2-3-1 in the formation and tactics thread... http://forum.talkchelsea.net/topic/13970-formation-and-tactics-discussion/page__st__18

Cba going and copy and pasting it

[5354 204]

Formation is 1 thing. Style of play is another.

I just hope the team can stick together and play SERIOUSLY when the season starts.

[Kojo 4,676]

Formation is 1 thing. Style of play is another.

I just hope the team can stick together and play SERIOUSLY when the season starts.

No way... just no way...

you actually posted outside a match thread?.

[5354 204]

No way... just no way...

you actually posted outside a match thread?.

LOL Damn

Stop stalking me. I am a lurker. hahahaha

[Kojo 4,676]

LOL Damn

Stop stalking me. I am a lurker. hahahaha

I keep thinking you're Carlo Ancelotti!

it's confusing me, and you have been on this forum for ages but you only post on match day threads, it's confusing me!!!!.

[Rahul Haque 57]

4 2 3 1 > 4 3 3

we don't have the players for a 4 3 3, none of our wingers like to be so far off the ball, they dont want to be that outside forward who plays almost as an outside striker apart from maybe marin? we are best suited as i've said countless times to the 4 2 3 1, where the 'three' influence the outcome of the attack. we have the talent now. all we need is to give them the freedom to do so. please no lamps or raul in that position. they are too old and slow.

[Rahul Haque 57]

i think it's just so simple. rdm needs to stop making it complicated. it's very simple. he already has the formation 4 2 3 1. we have the talent required to play this formation. there is absolutely no need to tinker and play old players in the '3'. why? they look out of place there. there is no requirement to play mereiles as a CAM. why did rdm even try it? a bit confusing.

cech

ivanovic cahill terry cole

mikel lampard

oscar mata hazard

torres

it's that easy. if we are going to play mereiles, we have to play him as a double pivot because he is simply woeful as a CAM. he doesn't have the quality and is a massive downgrade from mata. ramires, marin and piazon, moses? can compete for the 'three' behind the main striker- torres/sturridge/lukaku

so simple! why over complicate it with 4 1 4 1 or 4 3 3 or 4 3 1 2? this team has been constructed for the purpose of a 4 2 3 1, to get the best out of torres and sturridge.

[Rahul Haque 57]

4-1-4-1

4-4-1-1, bit more advanced though I'll explain.

Effectively Mata is a left winger and Hazard is in the number 10 position. Ramires is more of a wide midfielder, Mikel sitting slightly deeper and Oscar just a CM.

Mata and Hazard could interchange positions (similar to what Inter Milan's Ricardo Alvares and Wesley Sneidjer did in this formation under Andrea Stramaccioni in May when Inter beat AC Milan 4-2.) If they both end up in central positions the team can switch to 4-3-2-1 or a 4-3-3 basically with Ramires coming inside as a box to box midfielder. Also if we occupy the build up play more to the left with Hazard and Mata interchanging, we could then spray the ball to right into space catching teams out (hopefully) where our right back could go and deliver the ball in to the box.

Kind of links on with the bit I just mentioned, if we had a right back like Dani Alves or Maicon we could play a 4-4-1-1 but with 3 central midfielders in Ramires, Mikel and Oscar, the ball could come inside to either Oscar, Mikel and Ramires and then to the right back who could go further up and provide a cross/shoot for goal as Ramires isn't the greatest crosser in the world. (Similar to what Inter did with Zanetti coming inside more and Maicon having all the right flank to himself.) Also it enables us to get more bodies into the box if we have a third central midfielder spare rather than having a winger and full back both in the flank.

Just an idea, read about Stramaccioni's tactic vs Milan and wondered if we could use it but for a start we'd need a more attacking right back with pace, good delivery and stamina being able to go back and fourth easily.

http://www.zonalmark...t-to-the-right/

the second formation is basically a 4 2 3 1 with more emphasis on defensive organization- which is exactly what rdm did last season. i don't mind that. but it has to be more offensive then last year. using either one of mata, hazard or oscar centrally is fine by me as long as we keep the 4 2 3 1 and allow our flair players to dictate the outcome of the game. we have all this talent and every pre season game the ball is with mereiles or mikel most of the time. so frustrating and disappointing.

[Rahul Haque 57]

i'll further explain what i mean.

for me it's so simple. we've spent the whole pre season absolutely doing nothing at all. just experimenting and getting the fitness back together. it was really a waste of a pre season. but that's done we can only look to the future..the way i see it the elements are there for one formation and one formation only the 4 2 3 1 or defensively a 4 4 1 1 depending on the quality of opposition and where the game is being played. the outcome of the game in the attacking sense will be decided by the '3' in the 4 2 3 1. the 3 are to be any of the following and no one else- hazard, mata, oscar, marin, ramires, piazon, benayoun/ malouda. the '2' will be focused on solidity in midfield and keeping things mostly simple with one being a little more advanced then the other. this position will be contested by mikel, lampard, romeu, essien and mereiles.

and lastly and ultimately the position that could decide the outcome of our season. the striker. the '1'. torres, sturridge and lukaku, possibly a new player depending on the market.

i firmly believe that torres and sturridge will score the buckload if we play a 4 2 3 1 because they are both good at getting behind the defense and running the channels. none of them are particularly comfortable in a 4 3 3 where they are supported by two wide forwards and this is why the 4 3 3 should be scrapped and forgotten about. we saw today that torres actually played well but as usual he played almost as a providor because he had to drop deep and almost act as a false nine which just doesnt suit him. it suited drogba but drogba is completely different. ultimately, we are heading in a new direction. i see the talent available to us and it screams 4 2 3 1. tactically, it suits us. offensively, it's explosive and technically superlative. defensively, it can be an issue but that's why rdm is the coach. it will be his job to instill that tough mentality off the ball but going forward, this has to be the way.

[klopfzeichen 78]

we don't have the players for a 4 3 3, none of our wingers like to be so far off the ball, they dont want to be that outside forward who plays almost as an outside striker apart from maybe marin? we are best suited as i've said countless times to the 4 2 3 1, where the 'three' influence the outcome of the attack. we have the talent now. all we need is to give them the freedom to do so. please no lamps or raul in that position. they are too old and slow.

Actually Meireles isn't that old, he's just rubbish.

[bluezola 7]

It isn't.

I discussed this in my new season thread, Mata can adapt into midfield ,more work rate more deeper. Obviously he's a free roam player but he can do it. Oscar even better for it in my opinion.

Where as 4-2-3-1 is 3 attackers, 3 midfielders would be much more suitable, because getting dominated in midfield is what could be our true weakness by buying all these attackers.

Our problem isn't us getting dominated in midfield by the opposition, with the exception of Barcelona, it rarely happens. It's about speed, craft and creativity in midfield. Having a DM player who isn't afraid to run forward with the ball, dictate play as well as being able to pick a forward pass. Present incumbents played there over the pre season games haven't been good enough, although young Josh will in time full that role. Beginning to wonder whether RDM has seen the same problems that we do and how he is going to deal with the fact that some players just can't play the type of football we are developing.

We must play 4-2-3-1 we now have forward players with pace, that are comfortable on the ball and can beat a player. RDM should be encouraging the front 4 players to be more flexible, fluid and not restrict their movement when in the opposition half. That is why we have brought creative players comfortable on the ball, it's why RA wanted Pep.

The question is can RDM get the front 4 players playing the incisive football that they are capable of when he continually plays 2 ineffective DM players who offer very little in terms of creativity, control and pace.

[royg 96]

Mikel-Lampard will do good as a pivot if Lampard stops his late runs and stay deep and just distribute the ball like what he did during the CL campaign. With all the pre-season games he keeps on making those late runs and leaving lots spaces for the opponents to capitalize on.

[gary gordon 1,777]

Sturridge needs to get a shot as a lone striker. Torres can't go the entire season on his own. Lukaku needs at least 2-3 loan seasons

[Leif 6,006]

We simply must go for one of 3 formations in my opinion -

Manchester City's 4-2-3-1.

Arsenal's 4-3-3/4-2-1-3

Brazil's 4-2-1-3

I won't go into a big analysis of how they're different from our current 4-2-3-1. It should be obvious enough.

[TrippingStep 336]

We simply must go for one of 3 formations in my opinion -

Manchester City's 4-2-3-1.

Arsenal's 4-3-3/4-2-1-3

Brazil's 4-2-1-3

I won't go into a big analysis of how they're different from our current 4-2-3-1. It should be obvious enough.

On this topic, I fully agree with Kojo.

We don't have the two midfielders who are used to control the tempo of the game, who covers where needed in the field.

Moving from left to right and vice versa, for a 2 against 1 pressing on the side, or ready to intercept passes if we play high on the pitch.

[EskWeston 696]

For me formations are not the problem, it is the way we are playing. We need to be able to release the ball quicker and see more movement off the ball. If we continue the way we are at the moment we are way to predictable and far to easy to play against. We need quick insisive passing, better pressing and more movment off the ball. The fact we have not seen this at all in pre season so far is a worry. The best football we played was in the first half against Seattle. For me, if we are going to play a midfield 2 in a 4-2-3-1 then we cannot play any pairing of Mikel, Lampard, Essien and Meireles. We lack the drive and pace in the midfield, we need one of those alongside Ramires, Romeu or McEachran (or that type of player). I would love to see a pairing of Romeu and Ramires behind a 3 of Hazard, Oscar and Mata.

It is the same in a midfield 3 of a 4-3-3, we just lack the drive in midfield when played with certain players. More than anything i want to see Ramires brought off the wing and put in the midfield where he can do the most damage and be a bigger influence on the game. My biggest concern is that we are going to sacrifice what could be our best "playing" eleven to accomodate certain players.

[termninja 5,290]

Merged 4-2-3-1 thread with Formation and Tactics discussion one.

[capriccioso 2,545]

4-4-1-1, bit more advanced though I'll explain.

Effectively Mata is a left winger and Hazard is in the number 10 position. Ramires is more of a wide midfielder, Mikel sitting slightly deeper and Oscar just a CM.

Mata and Hazard could interchange positions (similar to what Inter Milan's Ricardo Alvares and Wesley Sneidjer did in this formation under Andrea Stramaccioni in May when Inter beat AC Milan 4-2.) If they both end up in central positions the team can switch to 4-3-2-1 or a 4-3-3 basically with Ramires coming inside as a box to box midfielder. Also if we occupy the build up play more to the left with Hazard and Mata interchanging, we could then spray the ball to right into space catching teams out (hopefully) where our right back could go and deliver the ball in to the box.

Kind of links on with the bit I just mentioned, if we had a right back like Dani Alves or Maicon we could play a 4-4-1-1 but with 3 central midfielders in Ramires, Mikel and Oscar, the ball could come inside to either Oscar, Mikel and Ramires and then to the right back who could go further up and provide a cross/shoot for goal as Ramires isn't the greatest crosser in the world. (Similar to what Inter did with Zanetti coming inside more and Maicon having all the right flank to himself.) Also it enables us to get more bodies into the box if we have a third central midfielder spare rather than having a winger and full back both in the flank.

Just an idea, read about Stramaccioni's tactic vs Milan and wondered if we could use it but for a start we'd need a more attacking right back with pace, good delivery and stamina being able to go back and fourth easily.

http://www.zonalmark...t-to-the-right/

I really like this idea, RD. Good write up

For me formations are not the problem, it is the way we are playing. We need to be able to release the ball quicker and see more movement off the ball. If we continue the way we are at the moment we are way to predictable and far to easy to play against. We need quick insisive passing, better pressing and more movment off the ball. The fact we have not seen this at all in pre season so far is a worry. The best football we played was in the first half against Seattle. For me, if we are going to play a midfield 2 in a 4-2-3-1 then we cannot play any pairing of Mikel, Lampard, Essien and Meireles. We lack the drive and pace in the midfield, we need one of those alongside Ramires, Romeu or McEachran (or that type of player). I would love to see a pairing of Romeu and Ramires behind a 3 of Hazard, Oscar and Mata.

It is the same in a midfield 3 of a 4-3-3, we just lack the drive in midfield when played with certain players. More than anything i want to see Ramires brought off the wing and put in the midfield where he can do the most damage and be a bigger influence on the game. My biggest concern is that we are going to sacrifice what could be our best "playing" eleven to accomodate certain players.

Agreed, regardless of what formation we play we need a fast tempo.